Examples Of Slang With Roots In Folklore, Mythology, . . .

[aitch]

Hello,

was looking for examples of slang with roots in folklore, mythology, old poems, etc. . .

for example, maybe เจ้าชู้ emerged from ขุนช้างขุนแผน ?

[oldsparrow]

I think เจ้าชู้ has been here before ขุนช้างขุนแผน was written and it's not quite a slang there are เจ้าชู้ in official writting

Some words from the myth.literature that becomes slang ie.

ศรีธนญชัย = Cheeky tricky person. "Don't talk like ศรีธนญชัย"

ผีเสื้อสมุทร = In small circle, to describe big fat girl.

ขุนช้าง = Can be used to refer to bald person but the young teen may not pick it quickly.

Edited May 27, 2009 by oldsparrow

[DavidHouston]

I would like to recommend two books to you:

“๒,๐๐๐ อุปมาอุปไมย หนังสือสำหรับค้นคว้าและอ้างอิง” (Two Thousand Metaphors, a Research and Reference Guide), เอกรัตน์ อุดมพร, 90 baht. This book contains lots of metaphors, common and otherwise, explains them, and provides an example of their use. For those which are sourced in literature, this book provides the name of the source tome. Examples of sources include “พระอภัยมณี โดยสุนทรภู่”, “อัเหนา”, “สามก๊ก”, and “ขุนช้างขุนแผน”, as you noted.

Here is one from ขุนช้างขุนแผน:

“ขุตบ่อล่อปลา” (“To dig a well to deceive the fish”) and the explanation is “ทำกลอุบายเพื่อให้ฝ่ายหนึ่งหลงเชื่อโดยหวังประโยชน์จากอีกฝ่ายหนึ่ง” (“to create an artifice or trick so that one faction is deceived into believing that it will gain an advantage over another faction”).

This is not an easy book for us learners; however, it contains a wealth of information for those willing to make the effort.

The second book is “๒,๐๐๐ สุภาษิตไทย” (Two Thousand Thai Proverbs and Sayings) by the same author and publisher, 80 baht. This book is similar to the first but concentrates on sayings and proverbs.

Good luck!

[aitch]

a few years ago, while getting a foot massage, i was asked if i was a butterfly. i said no. then i kept hearing เจ้าชู้ from the girls. i asked for the English translation of เจ้าชู้ and one said "wolf". couldn't remember the Thai word for wolf but i was pretty sure that it was not เจ้าชู้ . then i started to think, maybe a Thai version of "Little Red Riding Hood" ?

thank you for the cheap challenging book recommendations David. on my return trips, i get the "you have a dead body in that carry on bag ?" look from customs (and off to the 'futher inspection' line i go). English was my weak suit in school so i really have to plug away at Thai. flip side of that is i tested really well in pitch recognition.

thank you also oldsparrow

[oldsparrow]

You're welcome krub.

Butterfly? There is ผีเสื้อกลางคืน (night moth) means "lady of the night"

Wolf? หมาป่า never heard similar expression in Thai that means เจ้าชู้ but there is เสือหิว (hungry tiger) slng for the that who is desperately in need of girlใ

ie. The girls may say: "The party was full of เสือหิว, 7 guys approached me.

There is longer word เจ้าชู้ประตูดิน. The ประตูดิน was red light area in the early BKK era.

[yoot]

There is longer word เจ้าชู้ประตูดิน. The ประตูดิน was red light area in the early BKK era.

สงสัยคุณนกกระจอกเฒ่าจะจำสลับกับ"กำแพงดิน"ที่เชียงใหม่ แล้วกระมัง

ลองอ่านนี่ดูนะ

http://www.kunpra.tv/aword.asp?sID=1

[Rikker]

Here's one for you: The colloquialism เชย "unfashionable, out of date" is said to come from a character, ลุงเชย, in the popular สามเกลอ series of books. Not exactly folklore, but it's of literary origin.

Yoot, as for the etymology of เจ้าชู้ประตูดิน given by คุณพระช่วย, there's some evidence from the เสภา version of ขุนช้างขุนแผน. This passage is of พระพันวษา berating the soldiers who failed to capture ขุนแผน:

อ้ายชาติหมากาลีเห็นขี้เสือ วิ่งแหกแฝกเฝือไม่แลเหลียว

ดีแต่จะเย่อหยิ่งนั้นสิ่งเดียว ลอยลากหางเกี้ยวประตูดิน

หวีผมหย่งหน้าอ้ายบ้ากาม ศึกเสือสงครามไม่เอาสิ้น

It's not certain what exactly ประตูดิน means in this context, but frankly it sounds more like a red light district than a palace gate. Though we can be reasonably certain that ประตูดิน around this same time period did refer to doors in the palace, as claimed. Anyway, something to think about. I'm always wary of etymologies without corroborating historical evidence.

(I got this info from this article in สกุลไทย.)

[nicholasday]

slightly off topic but as Khun chang Khun Paen has been mentioned a few times i would mention that currently Pasuk Pongpaichit and Christ Baker are currently in the process of translating it into English. Also they have been updating the wikipedia page on it so you know if you are getting info from wikipedia about the book then it is coming from an authorative source.

[Rikker]

Yes, good call on mentioning that. (For anyone not familiar, this is the website with the draft translation, including Prince Damrong's preface, and many other helpful and interesting things.)

[Emeritus]

I am addicted to idioms and aphorisms in the languages I know, but my Thai is limited to a few words and phrases. I believe the Thai language has plenty of them and my wife has explained some choice ones to me.

Last month, while sitting out on the terrace with a Thai visitor, we heard the church bells chime the hour and I explained to him the origin of this tradition. In his turn, he told me about the Thai idiom of living far from the noon-time cannon, ie living in the boondocks. Even my wife, a city slicker, did not know that one. Somebody who knows Thai may be able to post the Thai text of it.

[yoot]

Yoot, as for the etymology of เจ้าชู้ประตูดิน given by คุณพระช่วย, there's some evidence from the เสภา version of ขุนช้างขุนแผน. This passage is of พระพันวษา berating the soldiers who failed to capture ขุนแผน:

อ้ายชาติหมากาลีเห็นขี้เสือ วิ่งแหกแฝกเฝือไม่แลเหลียว

ดีแต่จะเย่อหยิ่งนั้นสิ่งเดียว ลอยลากหางเกี้ยวประตูดิน

หวีผมหย่งหน้าอ้ายบ้ากาม ศึกเสือสงครามไม่เอาสิ้น

It's not certain what exactly ประตูดิน means in this context, but frankly it sounds more like a red light district than a palace gate. Though we can be reasonably certain that ประตูดิน around this same time period did refer to doors in the palace, as claimed. Anyway, something to think about. I'm always wary of etymologies without corroborating historical evidence.

(I got this info from this article in สกุลไทย.)

From the article in สกุลไทย, it clearly states that ประตูดิน in this context refers to the palace gate, including the meaning of "ลอยลากหาง" to confirm that statement. Why do you think it sounds more like a red light district? We don't even know whether there was one in that era.

[DavidHouston]

Just a related question: Sakul Thai magazine used to have two articles on Thai language each issue and they were included in the on-line version. I cannot find these articles anymore. Are they published elsewhere or am I missing them on the Sakul Thai website? Thanks.

[oldsparrow]

Oh I was very wrong. Thank you for correction krub!

[Rikker]

Last month, while sitting out on the terrace with a Thai visitor, we heard the church bells chime the hour and I explained to him the origin of this tradition. In his turn, he told me about the Thai idiom of living far from the noon-time cannon, ie living in the boondocks. Even my wife, a city slicker, did not know that one. Somebody who knows Thai may be able to post the Thai text of it.

The Thai phrase "far from the noon-time cannon" is ไกลปืนเที่ยง. Literally, it means living in the boondocks, but figuratively, it means being clueless or not in the know, because you live in the boondocks, far away from the happenings of the city. Or so I understand.

[Rikker]

From the article in สกุลไทย, it clearly states that ประตูดิน in this context refers to the palace gate, including the meaning of "ลอยลากหาง" to confirm that statement. Why do you think it sounds more like a red light district? We don't even know whether there was one in that era.

I don't doubt the existence of a palace door called ประตูดิน, I was just wondering about the overall plausibility of the conclusion.

Anyway, I did some further looking and was able to locate where this passage comes from. It's near the end of chapter 20 of the standard (Prince Damrong-edited) version of ขุนช้างขุนแผน. This English translation of the relevant passage comes from Baker/Pasuk:

"What a tribe of evil curs! If you saw a bit of tiger shit you’d run off into the elephant grass without looking back. There’s only one thing you’re good at – strutting around, and swishing your tails to flirt at the Din Gate. Combing your hair and making up your faces. Sex mad! Fighting bandits or fighting wars doesn’t interest you at all."

They include this footnote explaining the Din Gate reference:

The Din (earth) Gate was the gate of the palace used by inner ladies, especially to visit the market behind the palace, and was a gathering place for men who wished to flirt with them. These men were know as ‘Din Gate lovers.’ In Ayutthaya, the gate was on the north side of the palace (shown on the Phraya Boran map). The name was carried over to Bangkok, and indicated the gate leading to the market later known as Tha Thian. ‘Swishing your tails’ refers to the fashion for men to tie their lower cloth with the end hanging down one side as a long sash (Red:227-8).

They cite Red, but I'm unable to figure out from their website who they're citing. The overall point is, always look for further sources. I'd like to know who "Red" is in this case. In any case, this is sounding like a relatively trustworthy explanation of the idiom.

[Emeritus]

The Thai phrase "far from the noon-time cannon" is ไกลปืนเที่ยง. Literally, it means living in the boondocks, but figuratively, it means being clueless or not in the know, because you live in the boondocks, far away from the happenings of the city. Or so I understand.

Thank you, Rikker, for the Thai text. It enabled me to look it up on Thai2English. My visitor, it appears, was too polite to tell me about its figurative meaning.

[DavidHouston]

It is interesting that two sources take a less expansive view in their English definition:

Lexitron: ไกลปืนเที่ยง [ADJ] underdeveloped; far and underdeveloped

Def. ไม่รู้เรื่องราวอะไรเพราะอยู่ห่างไกลความเจริญ.

Domnern Sathienpong: "remote, lawless"

Matichon merely repeats a portion of the RID definition: "อยู่ห่างไกลความเจริญ." and RID has the more expansive, "ไม่รู้อะไรเพราะอยู่ห่างไกลความเจริญ." This is the source, obviously, of the Lexitron definition.

I like your explanation better, Khun Rikker, because it seems to reflect the RID's "ไม่รู้อะไร" more accurately than Lexitron or DS's English translation.

[Rikker]

Domnern's definition "lawless" fits with the well-known 1985 film ไกลปืนเที่ยง, starring Sorapong Chatree, about a lawless frontier village (called หมู่บ้านเขาคอขาด "Cutthroat Hill Village") under the influence of a wealthy and corrupt businessman.