Illegal To Use Thai Spouse As Nominee In Land Ownership

[johnefallis]

Maybe the Financial Times needs to look again at the number of companies in Thailand who make the top 100 and in the Fortune 500. Per capita they are not doing too badly! But correct - wealth and status does not make a 'world-class' company.

Dear Asiawatcher,

Let's save time here. Can you provide "the number of companies in Thailand who make the top 100 and in the Fortune 500"?

Yours in anticipation.

Ditto that!

In one post it seemed like your head was right there working reasonably fine, then it's as if you bent over and inserted it before making that statement.

Maybe it was just a typo?

[ThaiLawOnline]

Thaivisa created a monster: THAIVISA!

Statements are made, published here and foreigners are ON FIRE!

NO REASON TO PANIC HERE.

Foreigners can't use nominees to buy land. We all knew it. No?

Yes, foreigners CAN'T OWN LAND (few exceptions) in Thailand.

I receive emails EVERY WEEK of foreigners saying: "I'm buying land with my wife.."

NO! She buys land. Not you...

This is the letter of confirmation that foreigners sign when their spouse buys land in Thailand:

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/images/letter%...onfirmation.jpg

Now, I don't think these statements were made in English and there might have been some "translations problems".

The only sentence making problems is this one:

If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds," he said.

Why? Because it's perfectly legal to make a loan agreement, to GIVE money to your spouse, and it's perfectly legal for a Thai to acquire land.

Perfectly legal for a spouse to make a lease, a usufruct, a loan agreement to a foreigner. Married or not.

You just have to make it clear: The married foreign husband (or spouse) doesn't own. The THAI PERSON OWNS.

If you for more information about PROPERTY LAW, try http://www.thailawonline.com (We will update this section in the next 2 weeks)

The LAND CODE is there, in the LAWS section.

The Civil Code is there. (Left menu, CIVIL CODE)

Usufruct is at 1417 of the Thai Commercial and Civil Code. (book 4)

Lease is under HIRE OF PROPERTY (537 Civil Code, book 3 title 4))

Superficies are at 1410.

Common property under marriage is called SIN SOMROS (1474 of Civil Code, Book 5, family)

Seb.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Isaanlawyers

[melmark]

My wife has been using my family surname since we have been married.

A few years ago we bought some land. At that time I was required to sign a paper giving up any ownership or rights to that land and that it belonged strictly to my wife. Can't remember if the paper said anything about where the funds came from or not.

At the time it was my understanding that this was required by law in order for my wife to buy any land after we married.

Melmark

[Crossy]

Thanks Issanlawers.

What is your take on what was really meant by the 'iffy' statement you highlight?

[sassienie]

I found this which might help:

For registration of land to a Thai national married to a foreigner proof is required that the money used to purchase the land is legally the Thai spouse's. In case of acquisition of land or in some cases condominium at the Land Department;

1. the Thai spouse has to show evidence that all money paid is a personal property (Sin Suan Tua) according to section 1471 and section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code, or;

2. that the Thai and his/her spouse must present themselves at the Land Office (*) to confirm in a standard Land Office letter of confirmation that all money paid for the property is personal property (Sin Suan Tua) not a common property (Sin Som Ros). Translation Regulation

So as long as your wife had a Sin Suan Tua in place or does stating that the money paid for the property is personal properrty then you should be ok?

The fact that the money might have previously been given as a gift should not be revelant as the money according to thai law would now be personel rather than common.......

Anyway I think that it best for people who could be effected to cover themselves but I am not sure if this would be really enforced.

I thought that for example the company route was illegal if it was deemed that the company was formed soley for the purpose of owning land - however I think that there a plently of Farang/Thai couples who went this route and I have never read anything that anyone as yet have lost their house/land. The rule that this <deleted> is refering to is not new. Are there any examples of a Thai spouse losing land under this law yet?

20 years ago my English friend met and married a Thai lady in England.

Once married his wife kept her maiden name in her passport and ID card.

This was at the time when Thai women married to Farang men could not own property or land in Thailand if married to a Farang.

My friend decided to buy a large plot of land in Phuket. He used his money and Thai wife’s maiden name for the purchase without declaring to the authorities that she is married to a Farang.

3 years later, my friend’s wife got into some sort of dispute with another Thai friend and this friend informed the land office about the illegal purchase of land in Phuket. A note was attached to the land deeds explaining the situation.

So now, up to this day, the land is stagnant. My friend’s Thai wife cannot sell or build on it, otherwise if she turns up at the land office, officials will probably begin proceedings to revoke the land rights of my friend’s wife and re-possess the land.

[jay-uk]

Can they enforce really enforce this......

[liloldspirut]

This land/property ACT in Thailand has been in forced since the Stone Age.

I hope this law does become strictly imposed as abuse of the land/property ACTs has been going on for years. Such as marriages of convenience or using a Thai spouse to gain a foot hold in Thailand.

I don't wish to see Farangs given any sort of powers in Thailand. The land authorities have been turning a blind eye and permitting Farangs to buy properties and businesses for under the counter payments. I have met Farangs who are boasting that, this is Thailand, we can do anything we like here, nothing can stop us, Thailand is a soft touch and a joke.

The main culprits are the Thai authorities themselves that have ways of getting around the laws by corruption. The Government's main priority should be to clamp down on these people first.

My Thai wife was the secretary for her Uncle who was the Thai ambassador for England. She earned more money than me and we have documents to prove it. Our land and home here in Thailand was given to our daughter. This is as a safeguard, in case of in the event my wife dies before me. Meaning that, if a Farang uses his money illegally to buy land/property in a Thai name and has no evidence that the purchase monies are actually the funds of the Thai person, he could come unstuck in the future if the Thai person dies or the Thai name decides that the Farang has forfilled his purpose. Corruption is a risky business, even in Thailand.

If the authorities really do begin enforcing these laws in real terms, than this will be as an example to others who consider having money is a ticket to contravene the laws of Thailand.

I too am Law compliant of whatever, but just because I do, does not mean it is good Law. Stone Age Laws are for the Stone Age Man. Times change just as people do. You stated the exact reason for this law in your rhetoric, the purpose of the Law when you qualified your statement as 'Foreigner'. Isolationism, i.e. Nationalism, to enable the Powers to be. As an American with a Thai wife of 35 years I do not see this back in the US. Where anyone can own no matter how.

[jackinbkk]

why would anyone even bother.

As long as we farangs stay here we are hiring/renting/borrowing everything.

Your money is going down the tube when you lease things. Officially we can't

own anything. You can only stay at the approval and concent of your wife.

When times get bad you'll lose the lot.

It's probably time to look into Vietnam etc... The thai economy is being

supported by wealthy foreigners. It's about time we non immigrants

fight back for some rights.

What a ridiculous place

[johnefallis]

My local bank is promoting loans for wives to buy their farang husbands land/house at low rates - with the loan guaranteed by the farang - I cannot see them doing this if it were illegal ?

Which bank is that? Is it in Samui? Seriously, I need some info like that.

[Marksamui]

20 years ago my English friend met and married a Thai lady in England.

Once married his wife kept her maiden name in her passport and ID card.

This was at the time when Thai women married to Farang men could not own property or land in Thailand if married to a Farang.

My friend decided to buy a large plot of land in Phuket. He used his money and Thai wife’s maiden name for the purchase without declaring to the authorities that she is married to a Farang.

3 years later, my friend’s wife got into some sort of dispute with another Thai friend and this friend informed the land office about the illegal purchase of land in Phuket. A note was attached to the land deeds explaining the situation.

So now, up to this day, the land is stagnant. My friend’s Thai wife cannot sell or build on it, otherwise if she turns up at the land office, officials will probably begin proceedings to revoke the land rights of my friend’s wife and re-possess the land.

That's not really like for like though is it.

The law has changed since 20 years ago and they have not made the correct declarations.

If you make the correct declations under the current law which does state in the event that the spouse is married to an alien, haw anyone lost their house/land??

[coalminer]

Land purchase through Thai spouse forbidden: Land Dept

PHUKET CITY: The director general of the Land Department has reiterated that foreigners using Thai nominees to buy land anywhere in the country will have their land title deeds revoked if caught – even if the nominee in question is a lawfully wedded spouse.

Obviously, this guy is not too brighy.

A quick look at the "Houses" division in Thaivisa will give him more than enough houses to choose from to reposses and give to his "mia noi".

[john b good]

Next time over there, withdraw every baht from her accounts, burn the bankbooks and open a new account at a different bank.

Anybody who already "owns" land through the spouse has a better idea how to beat the system? How else can they proof that the money used to purchase the land came from you and wasn't legitimately earned by your Tirak?

"wasn't legitimately earned by your Tirak"

Are you for real or wot ??

Where is some 30 - 35 yo Thai woman gonna earn 5 - 10 million baht "legitimately or otherwise"

[astor]

Who does makes the laws in Thailand? The government, or any general director?

Or any bananas seller?

[Paddleshifter]

Hahahahahahahahaha......hahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha....haha!

Does this idiot even think that Thailand has such a law. There is no country in the world nor Thailand where funds given by a legally wedded husband can not be used as her funds to do what the f... she wants with it in her country.

I would like to se a supreme courts decision rule over this. If they ruled it in favour of the thai land department, and for sure United Nations and all similar organizations would doom Thailand as a severe violating to human rights.

Such a law would be cutting the uplink from hel_l to heaven..

[johnefallis]

Which country in Asia foreighners can own land, house...etc 100% in them names? It is start getting boring here either for holliday. I got married this year with Thai lady that she lives in Phuket the last 20 years, she is a high Goverment Official. We are planning to moved to Phayao (North Thailand). She has changed her surname and got mine. Her bank acount is empty because she pays everymonth for her car. That means we can not buy property and build our house in Phayao?

Dude, yours is easy. You buy the car, let her buy the house.

I love this. My girl has to buy the house. By law. Hahahahaha

Thank you Mr. Wannanutterbutter, or whatever his name is.

What a great freakin' topic. I have something to do all day now cause this topic will easily go into being dozen and dozens of pages, if not hundreds.

Yes but can only use her money. I guess the days of the poor thai village girl seeking a farang to look after her and her family are gone. Against the law for him to put a dry roof over her head now. The dream of the poor thai girl is dead...

Yeah, that's okay, she is already buying her own place, pre-construction, smart girl. Tax Analyst for Large U.S. corporation currently. So she also already has a 10 year multiple entry U.S. visa. Since she has expertise in revenue and excise taxes, she will always have a good, high paying, job with normal business hours whenever she wants in Thailand. Educated, smart, classy, and beautiful, a perfect example of a real Thai lady. I own my place in U.S. and it is protected by my Trust, so it is not part of any marital estate, neither is my retirement/trust fund.

Thanks Dad.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Next time over there, withdraw every baht from her accounts, burn the bankbooks and open a new account at a different bank.

Anybody who already "owns" land through the spouse has a better idea how to beat the system? How else can they proof that the money used to purchase the land came from you and wasn't legitimately earned by your Tirak?

"wasn't legitimately earned by your Tirak"

Are you for real or wot ??

Where is some 30 - 35 yo Thai woman gonna earn 5 - 10 million baht "legitimately or otherwise"

Speaking for yourself?

Getting back to the article, it doesn't even make logical sense even witin the framework of the article, look:

PHUKET CITY: The director general of the Land Department has reiterated that foreigners using Thai nominees to buy land anywhere in the country will have their land title deeds revoked if caught – even if the nominee in question is a lawfully wedded spouse.

"Their" here can only mean "the foreigner's land title deeds".. Which he obviously doesn't have. They cannot revoke something that he doesn't have. They COULD revoke it from the Thai person, but that would frankly be an outrage because that would mean that Thais married to foriegners aren't equal under the law to Thais married to a Thai person.

I know we have a mickey mouse constitution at the moment but surely it still says that all Thais have equal rights under the law..

Anyway, very nice to have a yellow government isn't it?? Previous governments weren't this stupid. Even though half the people here seem to think they were the anti-farang lot.

Edited May 28, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[ianh68]

... After all according to thai law the income of both spouses is common property after marriage even if the income generating assets were owned by the husband prior to marriage. So if the couple had been married for several years then she could say that 50% of all the income while they were married is her own , right ??

I'd like a second opinion on this. According to one law firm I contacted, rental income from property (abroad) owned by the husband before marriage belongs to the husband 100%

[MJP]

This land/property ACT in Thailand has been in forced since the Stone Age.

I hope this law does become strictly imposed as abuse of the land/property ACTs has been going on for years. Such as marriages of convenience or using a Thai spouse to gain a foot hold in Thailand.

I don't wish to see Farangs given any sort of powers in Thailand. The land authorities have been turning a blind eye and permitting Farangs to buy properties and businesses for under the counter payments. I have met Farangs who are boasting that, this is Thailand, we can do anything we like here, nothing can stop us, Thailand is a soft touch and a joke.

The main culprits are the Thai authorities themselves that have ways of getting around the laws by corruption. The Government's main priority should be to clamp down on these people first.

My Thai wife was the secretary for her Uncle who was the Thai ambassador for England. She earned more money than me and we have documents to prove it. Our land and home here in Thailand was given to our daughter. This is as a safeguard, in case of in the event my wife dies before me. Meaning that, if a Farang uses his money illegally to buy land/property in a Thai name and has no evidence that the purchase monies are actually the funds of the Thai person, he could come unstuck in the future if the Thai person dies or the Thai name decides that the Farang has forfilled his purpose. Corruption is a risky business, even in Thailand.

If the authorities really do begin enforcing these laws in real terms, than this will be as an example to others who consider having money is a ticket to contravene the laws of Thailand.

If the money came from the wife's bank account, is this enough?

[sassienie]

why would anyone even bother.

As long as we farangs stay here we are hiring/renting/borrowing everything.

Your money is going down the tube when you lease things. Officially we can't

own anything. You can only stay at the approval and concent of your wife.

When times get bad you'll lose the lot.

It's probably time to look into Vietnam etc... The thai economy is being

supported by wealthy foreigners. It's about time we non immigrants

fight back for some rights.

What a ridiculous place

So why are you here? And when you do propose to begin your fight for non immigrant rights or look elsewhere to live? (All talk, pal)

Everyone should be aware of the laws before they consider living here long term.

What`s the point in moving to Thailand and than moaning about things afterwards.

The law is the law. Breaking these or getting around the imposed rules is a criminal offence and corruption, pure and simple, whether one agrees with it or not.

If land and property is purchased legally as imposed by Thai law, the Farang does not lose the entire estate to his Thai wife in the case of death or dispute.

Edited May 28, 2009 by sassienie

[the_webninja]

This is one of the most interesting Threads I have seen posted on this site. I think one of you guys who likes to write should sit down with a Thai Lawyer, and get the whole story, and then maybe make yourself useful and draw up a Proposal to present to the Government of Thailand, to get the story straight for everyone. Because many of you are absolutely right this issue could result in a firestorm of shiit for a lot of people. And if you guys figured out something that is on the books that is not right, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT besides sit around and complain and write Sarcastic Comments.

This issue is HUGE, it could mean a lot to a lot of people if you got it straightened out. If you just sit around and complain about things like this instead of doing your part to make a difference, you wind up being nothing but a bunch of grumpy old men.

And you can't talk about the lack of intelligence of Thai Gov officials if you act just as stupid as they do.

[yugobrian]

Three points.

1. If I buy my wife/girlfriend (depending on your situation) land which she (or the children) will keep when I am gone and if she does not come from the landed Bangkok elite, haven't I just helped expand the middle class and perhaps the GDP - maybe she starts a small business. What a great idea but apparently illegal. Are the rights of Thai woman who marries a foreigner less than those of one who marries a Thai? See 2007 Constitution, sec. 30: All persons shall be equal before the law and shall enjoy equal protection under it. Femails and males shall enjoy equal rights.

2. What does revoke mean? Who gets the land? And who's out the price of the land?

3. I want to know when the foreign embassies are going to do something to protect their citizens' interests. I note that, e.g. the U.S.A. works diligently to try to protect U.S. drug companies' profits - it wants a FTA which would curb the "listing" of medecine, done per WTO rules (see TRIPS) by Thailand which allows Thailand to import generic versions of patented drugs to provide affordable drugs to cancer and HIV/AIDs patient. But I never see the embassy doing anything to address the interests of U.S. (or other) expats.

[harleyclarkey]

What the heck do these idiots, and particularily this head one, expect? That the Thai wife, often from very modest background, has the money to buy the mansions that we see around the country? Ah yes. this was the little gift from the Thai family to welcome the foreigner to their family.

Where is the downside to all of this? What is their problem? I only see construction, jobs, services, better housing, improved quality of life, improved standards of living, clean environment for kids to grow up in, etc. etc. Maybe the boys in power would prefer to keep everyone in the country in squalor, except for them, their families and friends of course.

When Taksin bought Man City did he face any such problems? Heck no.....buy away boys and as much of Europe as you can afford. No problems here for these guys. There should be reciprocal arrangements in the EC for the rich and ruling Thais......30 year leasehold only, freehold with an EC citizen holding 51%, no buying through your wife, etc.

Another absurd stupid ill thought out law by absurd stupid people.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Maybe the boys in power would prefer to keep everyone in the country in squalor, except for them, their families and friends of course.

Well, basically, YES. That's a yellow government for you. Rabid anti foreign, and even anti-everyone they perceive as being low-caste. Serfs should remain serfs in their eyes.

Edited May 28, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[harleyclarkey]

Rather than just bang on about it I am going to write to my local MEP's (Member European Parliment) and ask them why do the same rules/laws for land ownership not apply as in the foreign country. Laws for Thais in the EC the same as rules for foreigners in Thailand.

Even playing field and all that.

[alfieconn]

Land purchase through Thai spouse forbidden: Land Dept

So does this mean that they are going to check the background of every Thai Lady who owns land to see if she had the means to pay for it !!! obviously its a lot easier to check the one's with farang surnames.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yes. Not marrying legally was absolutely the right choice. I chose not to get married especially because of crap like this.

[marsteele]

Rather than just bang on about it I am going to write to my local MEP's (Member European Parliment) and ask them why do the same rules/laws for land ownership not apply as in the foreign country. Laws for Thais in the EC the same as rules for foreigners in Thailand.

Even playing field and all that.

Anywhere else but thailand it would be racist. Thai can't be racists.

[churchill]

My local bank is promoting loans for wives to buy their farang husbands land/house at low rates - with the loan guaranteed by the farang - I cannot see them doing this if it were illegal ?

Which bank is that? Is it in Samui? Seriously, I need some info like that.

Bank of Ayudhya - Fixed rate 4.5% for 3 years - If the land and house is in your company then you sell to your wife - Remember there will be taxes to pay which makes it less like a good deal . ( however you would have to pay taxes if you were planning to sell in the future )

Your wife has to show her statement for 6 months showing she is able to pay the loan and you will also have to guarantee it - They will only lend 95% of the LAND OFFICE VALUATION .

Lots of forms etc as usual .

[churchill]

Rather than just bang on about it I am going to write to my local MEP's (Member European Parliment) and ask them why do the same rules/laws for land ownership not apply as in the foreign country. Laws for Thais in the EC the same as rules for foreigners in Thailand.

Even playing field and all that.

Why should they ?

[sassienie]

Three points.

1. If I buy my wife/girlfriend (depending on your situation) land which she (or the children) will keep when I am gone and if she does not come from the landed Bangkok elite, haven't I just helped expand the middle class and perhaps the GDP - maybe she starts a small business. What a great idea but apparently illegal. Are the rights of Thai woman who marries a foreigner less than those of one who marries a Thai? See 2007 Constitution, sec. 30: All persons shall be equal before the law and shall enjoy equal protection under it. Femails and males shall enjoy equal rights.

2. What does revoke mean? Who gets the land? And who's out the price of the land?

3. I want to know when the foreign embassies are going to do something to protect their citizens' interests. I note that, e.g. the U.S.A. works diligently to try to protect U.S. drug companies' profits - it wants a FTA which would curb the "listing" of medecine, done per WTO rules (see TRIPS) by Thailand which allows Thailand to import generic versions of patented drugs to provide affordable drugs to cancer and HIV/AIDs patient. But I never see the embassy doing anything to address the interests of U.S. (or other) expats.

It’s the old the Thai’s should worship the ground we walk on cause I’m supporting 2 villages, a wife, 10 children and 15 buffalo scenario.

These people just don’t seem to get it.

We are here as glorified tourists by the courtesy of the Thai government and it’s people.

As Westerners we are expected to spend our money in Thailand as a pay back for letting us live here.

The Thais permit us long stay and privileges (not rights) providing we tow the line, respect the country and it’s people.

Thailand is not a multi racial society, unlike Britain and the States. They do not wish us to gain any sort of power here or rights over its Thai citizens. Again those considering living in Thailand long term should be aware of this.

For me this is what makes Thailand unique and would hate to see the culture fall under the influences of Western business people, property speculators and traders.