Anyone flooded (again)

[MaiChai]

That should read "Flood water management not great in los"

Here we go again, another year and we get flooded again. Just called home, and spoke to my daughter, and she tells me we are flooded again. Eight years in Thailand and four years we have been flooded. One day everything is fine, and then the next day the whole village is under water.

I have heard stories in the past where someone opens up the flood gates full open, just thinking about their own situation, and then they end up flooding everyone downstream. It seems like the opening and closing of floodgates on rivers and canals across the country is not coordinated very well, leading to flooding, and huge amounts of damage and loss. Am I right? Anyone with any experiences?

We live in Sukhothai provence.

[jayenram]

I live in a village inside the Surin boundary. The village was under water for over a week to the extent that there were boats to transport people and motor bikes to and from their homes. Last year they installed a new drain through most of the village but unfortunately it has no suitable outlet as the surrounding land is so flat. I think we'll just have to learn to live with it.

[pnustedt]

I (actually my wife) own property between in a village between Sisaket and Surin. They've built new dams, raised river banks and new roads which act as water breaks and better drains - so far so good.

The gates on the new dams cannot be easily opened without proper equipment.

I know what you mean about the problem of flooding - locals dig holes into the banks of rivers and reservoirs and put nets over them to catch fish and shrimps. With complete disregard for the consequences. I've seen it so many times.

[plachon]

I (actually my wife) own property between in a village between Sisaket and Surin. They've built new dams, raised river banks and new roads which act as water breaks and better drains - so far so good.

The gates on the new dams cannot be easily opened without proper equipment.

I know what you mean about the problem of flooding - locals dig holes into the banks of rivers and reservoirs and put nets over them to catch fish and shrimps. With complete disregard for the consequences. I've seen it so many times.

Steady on Pneustadt! The villagers have "complete disregards for the consequences" of their actions in trying to feed themselves. Please consider what you are saying very carefully. Don't you think the problem could be the other way round? The govt. implements projects with complete disregard for their consequences on the villagers' livelihoods. Fishing for fish, shrimps, etc., has been an integral part of villagers survival strategy since time immemorial (go to the cave paintings at Paa Taem , Ubon if you don't believe me), but it's only in comparatively recnt times that flooding has become a "problem" and needed a govt. response to solve it. Flooding is a natural phenomenon on the floodplains (NB that word) of rivers wherever in the world. Generations past in Thailand just learnt to live with them and didn't build their houses on the floodplains themselves but on small rises nearby, whichwould only very rarely be flooded. Then there was no problem, cos the houses were on stilts and nothing of value could be lost.

However, since the age of "development", ancient wisdom and plain common sense have gone out the window and people have been fooled into believing that floods are a problem that can be solved by engineering projects. Thousands of dams, dykes, weirs, etc. etc. have ben built at great expense and guess what? Flooding is  still a regular phenomenon of floodplains and damage is even worse than in past years, beacuse of gross environmental damage, which you can read daily about in the B. Post. If you check outtoday's paper you can also read about how allthese dams and checks to the rivers natural flow have also caused wild fish catches to plummet and many species to become extinct. Actually the situation is farworse than painted inthat article I fear.

Hence, more people are chasing a progressively scarcer resource. So don't blamethe villagers for the flooding. They're just tryiong to survive in an increasingly more hostile environment. Blame Grom Chon Pratan and other govt. agencies which have put out the myth that they can solve flooding and continue to say the solution to flooding is more dams. Toxin even spews this crap.

And my sympathies are with you MaiChai and Jayenram, but why don't you turn threat into opportunity by getting out and joining the locals with a net, tao and bottle of lao kao to wash the fish down! (Or in MaiChai's case encourage your good mia to do so!)

[pnustedt]

Don't you think the problem could be the other way round?

Not from what I have seen.

With controlled irrigation crops other than rice are now being grown on land that was previously unsuitable.

Fish and shrimps can still be harvested without flooding land.

Well thought engineering projects can, and do, solve many flooding problems, in Thailand and all over the world.

Individuals who break a dam or water break to catch a few fish and shrimps and in the process flood a village are very irresponsible IMHO.

[jayenram]

And my sympathies are with you MaiChai and Jayenram

Thanks for your sympathies but I'm OK. I built my house some 2 metres above the flood plain and drive a 4 x 4 so I'm not directly affected.

However, before the local authority commence building drainage systems, surely they should consider where the systems are going to discharge. In an area as flat as Issarn, whatever you pump just comes straight back at you!

[pnustedt]

before the local authority commence building drainage systems, surely they should consider where the systems are going to discharge. In an area as flat as Issarn, whatever you pump just comes straight back at you!

Absolutely - a local authority should not plan such systems in isolation or they could cause a problem "downstream".

Another problem with Isaan is that large areas of it are bone dry for months and very little grows. Then there are floods and everything is washed away.

It is practical to improve irrigation with well thought out systems - and I am not talking about major projects like altering the flow of the Mekong.

[MaiChai]

My original grumble was that there does not seem to be countrywide coordination of the opening of flood gates. That is the releasing of flood water is not controlled and coordinated. I think there has been comments about this in the Thai press before.

But then maybe I should have built my house on stilts out of wood sawn from my trees, and made the house as cheap as possible so that if it gets damaged it does not matter  

[tutsiwarrior]

Sounds like the posters on this thread live near the head waters of big rivers up country. I live in Suphan Buri just upstream of the Smoke. Ayudthayya is next door and has big probs with flooding...so I hear. Hopeful indications to the contrary I will be in residence in flat river country during this flood October season. I am told that the town that we live in is not affected...good drainage and all that.

Why is it that up country places got problems with flooding and downstream areas that should see a greater volume of water don't have to worry?

plachon?...you sound like a hydrologist...what's going on?

Regards

[plachon]

Don't you think the problem could be the other way round?

Not from what I have seen.

With controlled irrigation crops other than rice are now being grown on land that was previously unsuitable.

Fish and shrimps can still be harvested without flooding land.

Well thought engineering projects can, and do, solve many flooding problems, in Thailand and all over the world.

Individuals who break a dam or water break to catch a few fish and shrimps and in the process flood a village are very irresponsible IMHO.

You obviously haven't seen (or perhaps understood) v. much of what you've been seeing. Isaan is littered with the remains of irrigation projects that are either abandoned (usually silted up); working at a fraction of their intended capacity; or a few "dukada" projects working at or near their intended capacities but at totaly uneconomic costs. In all cases that I have seen they have been poorly conceived and implemented, mostly to suck up vast amounts of budget, which is happily poured down the mouths of the hungry Grom Chon and their cronies. There is a 2,200 year old irrigation scheme near Chengdu, China still working today. I've seen Thai schemes silt up within 3 - 5 years of construction.

What about floods? Well, there are physically v. few sites left to sling a dam across these days, so now Grom Chon are changing their raison d'etre to "flood control" so they can continue to suck up those billions of baht in the annual budget. This means digging giant canals across the landscape and dredging all those biologically degraded streams and rivers, while selling the myth that their magical solutions to drought & floods at the same time. Native fish and shrimps can't get back into the small "huays" and rice fields to spawn any more, cos of al the obstruction s put in their way. Villagers are having to be increasingly more ingenious to cope and adapt, trying to stave off hunger or being sucked down into BKK or abroad. You hold that against them Pnu?

The thing about engineering solutions is that they tend to be v. limited in their focus and approach to "the problem" and v. rarely consider the many complex impacts of such approaches (EIAs have until v. recently been mere afterhoughts in the planning process and are still governed by political concerns than actual environmental or social concerns).

By the way, even in the most "advanced" countries, like Britain the hydrolgists and engineers who designed the Thames Barrage (the "solution" to London's floods) got it wrong as they failed to take into account climate change causing sea level rises (because it was politically expedient to do so at the time when the UK govt. denied it was taking place), and the Barrage will be useless in 10 - 30 years time in holding back major floods at current rates of sea level rise. And of course BUREC in the States are famous for their f..k-up on the Mississippi system and others where they "engineered" solutions. If you don't work with nature, it'll come back and bite your butt far worse than the original "problem".

PS. No, Tutsi, am not a hydrologist. Just an obeserver of the poverty-creation business.

[pnustedt]

You obviously haven't seen (or perhaps understood) v. much of what you've been seeing.

You do not know what I have seen - I have first hand experience of a well thought out small irrigation system near Sisaket. Land which previously supported only rice is now being used to grow maize, spring onions, tomatoes, marrows, etc. and grazing for dairy cattle. It did not involve digging large canals, dredging, etc. It has made a considerable difference to the lives of local farmers.

Sure you can point to many less well-conceived projects.

Ever been to Holland?

[plachon]

Indeed I don't know what you've seen or not. And I am interested by the project you mention in Sisaket. Where is it exactly? other information that would be useful to give some sort of impression of the place would be as follows:

1. How long has it been in operation?

2. How many farmers are involved and on what area?

3. Who manages the project? Govt. or non - govt agency/

4. What type of irrigation is it? Water costs and maintenance fees?

5. What are the markets for the produce?

6. What crops are most profitable and why?

7. Where is the milk sold and under what kind of arrangement?

I'm genuinely interested in these points, so you could PM me

if you want, assuming you can get this info.

Seeing you live in Sisaket, i can heartily recommend a trip to Rasi Salai Dam in the north of the province. A fine example of a useful piece of engineering at a mere snip of a budget. Talk with the local villagers about its great utility value and impact on their lives. Funny thing is, there are 12 other Rasi's scattered around Isaan and they'll all be obsolete in 10-15 year's time. But bor ben nyang dawg.

Yep, i have been to Holland. Last time in '02. Amazing country with absolute faith in those dykes to hold out the sea. building like crazy below sea level behind De Haag at the moment. Rather them than me. But read that a few hydrologists are now pushing to let the Rhine burst its banks in the winter and flood old fields, as happened in times gone by. Finally, clicking and coming full circle back to thge point i made earlier about working with nature. interesting times indeed with sea level accelerrating......

[Salmin]

I have just moved to Bangkok from the north, Thoen, where flooding was always a caution. My only difficulty now is that for the third day in a row I have to take my socks and shoes off and roll up the pants to wade through the knee deep water at the Rajinee pier. Fairly painless.