Do You Speak Pidgin English To The Wife / Gf?

[Naam]

Ok enough is enough

Pigeon = Wild and domesticated bird having a heavy body and short legs.

Pidgin = An artificial language used for trade between speakers of a different languages.

SBK sort this lot out!

no can do speak pedgion?

[Naam]

count your blessings ladies and gentlemen! i am a german who's first language is french, married to a native english speaking wife since nearly thirty years. at home we speak most of the time english but use quite often, when it doesn't concern important matters, two other common languages to communicate.

it duss nott happen verry often zat ze Mrs korrekts my krammar butt she klaims zat i spoil vizz zat tchermann aktsent of mine ze lankvich off Schakespeare. i never zought off a divorze bekause off zat butt zere vere times vhen i hat ze urge to strangel her zroat verry hart

[MrOzark]

Repetition. And I don't mean 10 times. As children, we learn our native tongue

by speaking it and self-correcting EVERYDAY ALL DAY.

There are 2 key requirements:

1) Integrity. Sincerely care to pronounce the words correctly - not common

in Thailand.

2) Diligence. Consciously work at it.

The only time I haven't been able to teach proper pronunciation is

when the person gives up. And they always do so right away.

Chok Dee.

My wife's written English is nearly perfect.

But she has the problem that is so common to Thais, the habit of dropping or changing certain letters.

This all too often changes the sentance completely.

Like: R L T TH V W S...

She learned her English at Uni and before she met me did not get practice with native English speakers.

It is OK for me as I usually know what she is saying but it becomes a problem when she talks to other people that are not used to conversing with Thais.

Does anyone know of a teaching method to correct this?

[teachermark]

Sometimes i speak nid noi pidgeon englsih to thais who havent got good command of English,but not with my my thai gf of 4 years.She speaks good english,khmer and some chinese.

Sometimes I speak a little pidgeon English to Thais who haven't got good command of English,but not with my (my) Thai gf of 4 years.She speaks good English,Khmer and some Chinese.

I can see why !! ..

You forgot a comma after the word Khmer and one blank space before the word, Teachermark.

haha

Well you seem to be more enlightened than me. I didn't know English grammar rules had been changed so that you should put a commer before "and". When did that happen? .. When are all the other stupid rules going to be updated like that one? ..... (idiot)

As for "teachermark" .. it's a nick .. rules don't apply .. I can spell my nick however I like.

Ho Ho .. next!

[Moonrakers]

Sometimes i speak nid noi pidgeon englsih to thais who havent got good command of English,but not with my my thai gf of 4 years.She speaks good english,khmer and some chinese.

Sometimes I speak a little pidgeon English to Thais who haven't got good command of English,but not with my (my) Thai gf of 4 years.She speaks good English,Khmer and some Chinese.

I can see why !! ..

You forgot a comma after the word Khmer and one blank space before the word, Teachermark.

haha

Well you seem to be more enlightened than me. I didn't know English grammar rules had been changed so that you should put a commer before "and". When did that happen? .. When are all the other stupid rules going to be updated like that one? ..... (idiot)

As for "teachermark" .. it's a nick .. rules don't apply .. I can spell my nick however I like.

Ho Ho .. next!

Wow.

What hypocrisy and lighten up a bit.

Spell check that.

[teachermark]

That just shows the quality of the Thailand English Teacher - his correction is corrected by a Thai

I worked here as an English teacher for over a decade and believe me, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can call themselves an English teacher.

Unfortunately his "correction" was "incorrect". You do not put a comma before "and". E.g .. "1,2,3,4 and 5" is correct. "1,2,3,4,and 5" is incorrect.

That "just shows the quality" of your own "English teaching" over a decade. Don't throw stones. 

Edited May 31, 2009 by teachermark

[teachermark]

Wow.

What hypocrisy and lighten up a bit.

Spell check that.

It's not hypocrisy, it's true. He will probably have a go at you for not putting a space between "moon" and "raker" .. anyway .. I'm "lightened up" already .. you didn't think I was taking this crap thread seriously did you? I'm just having a go a couple of twits.

[crocodilexp]

Great topic! I admit to be guilty as charged -- I speak broken Thai English to my GF (and to some extend to other Thais), when my Thai is up to the task (happens often!).

Main factors are:

• Feeling of less friction and more empathy. It's easier to have rapport with someone if you're talking in a similar way. People generally try to match the tone of person they're talking to -- with loud folk, we talk louder etc.
  
• My lack of strong language/dialect identity. I'm from a family of mixed native/non-native English speakers, so I tend to adjust my accent/pace/complexity to who I'm speaking to. People who grew up in a homogeneous, single-language or single-dialect environment may find this unnatural and even annoying.
  
• Easier understanding. If they pronounce the word in a certain way, they're primed to hear it in the same way too. In Thailand, if you want directions, you get significantly better results asking for "sentan woh" than "central world". I am not a teacher, have no inherent drive to teach others. Some people do, and it's often commendable. When speaking proper English, there is a communication penalty (having to repeat yourself etc.).. and I find this annoying.
  
• Speed and clarity. When I speak Thai English, I know to slow down and limit myself to a basic set of words. When speaking proper American English, I speak at normal pace and naturally use fairly advanced constructs (IELTS level 8 or SAT verbal 650). I find it distracting and difficult to try to speak proper English slower and with a dumbed-down vocab... since we're degrading the signal anyway, it's easier to go all the way down to Thai-English. This maximizes their understanding.
  
• Quite a few people I met in BKK like the sound of their own voice and don't care if they're understood by the other party in the conversation. They only notice the blank stares if they ask a Thai to do something. Thai culture is such that they rarely ask questions or interrupt by saying that they didn't understand. It may be my character flaw, but I get easily annoyed and tend to shut up quickly when I detect the other person is not following or not interested in the conversation. Dumbing it down to Thai-English ensures they follow at least to some degree.
  

Main downside of using pidgin is that your Thai GF's English won't improve (or your Thai, if they're doing the reverse to you). The obvious advantage is that communication is easier and more pleasant.

[Neeranam]

That just shows the quality of the Thailand English Teacher - his correction is corrected by a Thai

I worked here as an English teacher for over a decade and believe me, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can call themselves an English teacher.

Unfortunately his "correction" was "incorrect". You do not put a comma before "and". E.g .. "1,2,3,4 and 5" is correct. "1,2,3,4,and 5" is incorrect.

That "just shows the quality" of your own "English teaching" over a decade. Don't throw stones. 

At least you didn't call yourself "Ajarn".

When I went to school, you did put a comma after "and".

Maybe you're an American? I know they change proper English.

If you really think that quality of teaching is determined by stupid grammatical rules ..well And btw, I was a crap teacher and hated it - terrible job.

[crocodilexp]

Unfortunately his "correction" was "incorrect". You do not put a comma before "and". E.g .. "1,2,3,4 and 5" is correct. "1,2,3,4,and 5" is incorrect.

This is not a settled issue. See Serial Comma (wikipedia). In English, both variants are correct. This is NOT an American vs. British usage difference, but a style one. Some style guides support it (e.g. Chicago Manual of Style, Oxford Style Manual), some oppose it (e.g. New York Times, The Economist).

In many other languages (e.g. German, Spanish etc.), serial comma is incorrect, so I'd expect most non-native speakers to oppose it.

Edited May 31, 2009 by crocodilexp

[thesunset75]

Oh well, we speaking silent language these days

[teachermark]

That just shows the quality of the Thailand English Teacher - his correction is corrected by a Thai

I worked here as an English teacher for over a decade and believe me, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can call themselves an English teacher.

Unfortunately his "correction" was "incorrect". You do not put a comma before "and". E.g .. "1,2,3,4 and 5" is correct. "1,2,3,4,and 5" is incorrect.

That "just shows the quality" of your own "English teaching" over a decade. Don't throw stones. 

At least you didn't call yourself "Ajarn".

When I went to school, you did put a comma after "and".

Maybe you're an American? I know they change proper English.

If you really think that the quality of teaching is determined by stupid grammatical rules ..well And btw, I was a crap teacher and hated it - terrible job.

Erm .. it was "before" 'and'. Never mind .. as "after" 'and' is wrong too. I can understand why you hated teaching English. I'd hate doing something I was incompentant at too. 

[teachermark]

Anyway .. this whole thread is a moot point. In a few more decades all languages will be obselete as we will all be fitted with embedded computer chips at birth and transfer information amongst ourselves via "Bluetooth"

[Moonrakers]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

[polecat]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

I don't get you.

[SMEEERE]

That just shows the quality of the Thailand English Teacher - his correction is corrected by a Thai

I worked here as an English teacher for over a decade and believe me, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can call themselves an English teacher.

Unfortunately his "correction" was "incorrect". You do not put a comma before "and". E.g .. "1,2,3,4 and 5" is correct. "1,2,3,4,and 5" is incorrect.

That "just shows the quality" of your own "English teaching" over a decade. Don't throw stones.

At least you didn't call yourself "Ajarn".

When I went to school, you did put a comma after "and".

Maybe you're an American? I know they change proper English.

If you really think that quality of teaching is determined by stupid grammatical rules ..well And btw, I was a crap teacher and hated it - terrible job.

And for most sh1t pay,.

[canuckamuck]

The reason you should prefer the comma before and/or in a serial is to avoid grouping confusion.

For example: “Dave had to choose between pepperoni, vegetarian, ham and pineapple, and seafood, when he was in charge of pizza day.”

The comma before the ‘and’ removes all doubt and causes no problems and there is no benefit to its omission.

[Moonrakers]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

I don't get you.

Very good.

[Neeranam]

That just shows the quality of the Thailand English Teacher - his correction is corrected by a Thai

I worked here as an English teacher for over a decade and believe me, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can call themselves an English teacher.

Unfortunately his "correction" was "incorrect". You do not put a comma before "and". E.g .. "1,2,3,4 and 5" is correct. "1,2,3,4,and 5" is incorrect.

That "just shows the quality" of your own "English teaching" over a decade. Don't throw stones. 

At least you didn't call yourself "Ajarn".

When I went to school, you did put a comma after "and".

Maybe you're an American? I know they change proper English.

If you really think that the quality of teaching is determined by stupid grammatical rules ..well And btw, I was a crap teacher and hated it - terrible job.

Erm .. it was "before" 'and'. Never mind .. as "after" 'and' is wrong too. I can understand why you hated teaching English. I'd hate doing something I was incompentant at too. 

at least I can spell.

[teachermark]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

No. It doesn't matter. You are 100% correct. If "information" is transfered between two people (language) .. and both parties understand .. then the target has been achieved. Worring about anything beyond that is just pedantics .. go to the "Teachers Forum" for 1000's of examples of analy retentive language/grammar superstars.

I'd like to apologize now for being guilty of the above myself in this thread.I don't know what came over me. 

[Neeranam]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

No. It doesn't matter. You are 100% correct. If "information" is transfered between two people (language) .. and both parties understand .. then the target has been achieved. Worring about anything beyond that is just pedantics .. go to the "Teachers Forum" for 1000's of examples of analy retentive language/grammar superstars.

I'd like to apologize now for being guilty of the above myself in this thread.I don't know what came over me. 

Unbelievable

Edited May 31, 2009 by Neeranam

[Moonrakers]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

No. It doesn't matter. You are 100% correct. If "information" is transfered between two people (language) .. and both parties understand .. then the target has been achieved. Worring about anything beyond that is just pedantics .. go to the "Teachers Forum" for 1000's of examples of analy retentive language/grammar superstars.

I'd like to apologize now for being guilty of the above myself in this thread.I don't know what came over me.

Unbelievable

You didn't finish your one word sentence with a full stop.

[teachermark]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

No. It doesn't matter. You are 100% correct. If "information" is transfered between two people (language) .. and both parties understand .. then the target has been achieved. Worring about anything beyond that is just pedantics .. go to the "Teachers Forum" for 1000's of examples of analy retentive language/grammar superstars.

I'd like to apologize now for being guilty of the above myself in this thread.I don't know what came over me. 

Unbelievable

What's unbelievable? .. That I can admit to a mistake? I'm not insecure enough to "stick to my guns" even though I KNOW I'm wrong. It doesn't hurt. Try it yourself sometime.

[Moonrakers]

Does it really matter? After all the purpose of a common language is to communicate is it not? Which is just what we are doing now.

No. It doesn't matter. You are 100% correct. If "information" is transfered between two people (language) .. and both parties understand .. then the target has been achieved. Worring about anything beyond that is just pedantics .. go to the "Teachers Forum" for 1000's of examples of analy retentive language/grammar superstars.

I'd like to apologize now for being guilty of the above myself in this thread.I don't know what came over me.

Unbelievable

What's unbelievable? .. That I can admit to a mistake? I'm not insecure enough to "stick to my guns" even though I KNOW I'm wrong. It doesn't hurt. Try it yourself sometime.

I think you'll find that he wasn't being serious.

[teachermark]

So! .. what is it then? Tinglish or not? If you speak Tinglish/Thaiglish/Pidgin are you a knob head? Or is it quite OK? As in a previous post I said "as long as information is exchanged" the target is achieved.

I suppose it doesn't really matter unless you are in a situation where you have paying customers who want to learn English. (In a school for example)

[Geekfreaklover]

Just what we need. A grammar battle.

[IMA_FARANG]

There's a simple reason why I speak "pidgin English" to my Girlfriend. Assume I had something old that needed to be repaiered. If i used words like renewed/rejuvenated/refitted/etc. then she wouldn't understand what I meant by those words. If I tell her it is old and needs a fix-it-up she understands perfectly what I mean.

English, in spite of all the high toned cr@p Brits like to make about 'proper" English, is a medium of communication first.

Grammatical rules are fine, but communication is the first purpose.

Winston Churchill, who was banned from studying Latin as a punishment, and only allowed to study English by his school, made a comment of grammer rules.

There is a rule that a sentence should not end on a preposition. Churchill ended a sentence with a preposition, which he was criticised for. His response was, "I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that a preposition is not a word that should up on end a sentence."

Think about it.

Edited May 31, 2009 by IMA_FARANG

[Neeranam]

So! .. what is it then? Tinglish or not? If you speak Tinglish/Thaiglish/Pidgin are you a knob head? Or is it quite OK? As in a previous post I said "as long as information is exchanged" the target is achieved.

I suppose it doesn't really matter unless you are in a situation where you have paying customers who want to learn English. (In a school for example)

I speak Thaiglish sometimes to my wife - doesn't make me a "knob head", whatever that means. By Thaiglish I mean a mixture of proper Thai and English.

Pidgin, never. My wife couldn't speak a word of English when we met and we communicated in Thai. Gradually, I started teaching her English and ALWAYS corrected her and spoke normally. Sure, there were times when communication was hard, especially when I refused to translate into Thai(which is usually a bad thing), but it was worth it. I NEVER speak Pidgin English to my kids because it would make me a "knob head". Very detrimental to language aquisition. I'd recommend reading Noam Chomsky to learn more.

I'd maybe speak Pidgin English to a waiter, barmaid etc. if I couldn't speak Thai.

Speaking Pidgin English is stupid, as is Pidgin Thai. I have heard guys say things like "Sateve bpai 7/11" because the Thai for "go" is the only word they know - knobheads. Also, even guys studying Thai use their name instead of "I". This is also a "knobhead" thing to do.

Did your parents teach you that language use was not important and communication was the most important thing?

Edited May 31, 2009 by Neeranam

[bluesofa]

Well bully for everybody with their high and mighty attitude. I had to speak to my wife in pigeon english for the first year we were together because when I didn't 2 things happened.

1) She couldn't understand my Scottish accent

2) She would tell me she felt stupid and upset when she couldn't understand me.

Now she understands me perfectly when I talk the way I've always talked and she talks the same way as somebody who is learning to speak english properly (Because she goes to college to learn it).

Brigante7.

It appears that people revel in the apparent kudos of their other half been fluent in English as it implies they are educated and not farmers daughters/sons. Balls, example my mrs is an accountant with a degree and didn't take English classes and never had a reason to speak English until she met me, no interaction with farangs for work or in her leisure time. There are lots and lots of girls like this educated without English as a language.

My situation as with Brigante7 means you can only effectively communicate using the words from each others language that you both already know and if this means pidgin so be it.

I don't believe it. Every thai for the last ###? years takes english classes through the government schools. Most of them do not speak English even after getting a bachelors in English but every thai that goes to college has had at least 12 years of English classes and probably a few in university as well.

Yes, Thais do have to learn English at school.

However one of the reasons they don't learn much, especially at government schools is that the Thai who is teaching English has usually no conversational experience.

Therefore the teacher often has a poor grasp of English, and in a lot of these schools, the kids learn parrot fashion to repeat what the teacher tells them, not actually to have a real conversation.

Not a criticism, but my observation.

My girlfriend also did a degree in accountancy and had about two hours English tuition per week during that time.

So her English is very basic. Fortunately my Thai is (I consider!) reasonable, spoken and written. Not great, but reasonable.

So we have never had a conversation in English in nearly three years.

Some ferangs ask me why I don't get my girlfriend to learn English. To me, living in Thailand I would rather make an effort to improve my Thai.

[F1fanatic]

Grammar is only important in your country of origin or....in business.

Make glaring mistakes in either situation and the automatic assumption is that you are uneducated.

Outside those parameters, nobody cares (much!).