Why Are Thais Such Litterbugs?

[Petesear]

Lack of trash cans - Where ever I am it is difficult to find one

Parents do it so children copy - The education has to come from Parents and schools to change the habit .

Fines for throwing litter would be a good idea .

You are right about the lack of litter bins, but I find it hard to believe that all Thais would use one even if there were more.

It is learnt behaviour, and so education is the key. And let's hope the kids can teach the parents!

Not all Thais litter, I know plenty that don't but it is not a class thing, as many rich as poor Thais litter.

And there are fines for throwing litter in BKK, sadly it seems that only Farang are caught!

[Datsun240Z]

I agree, education is the key. It takes time, it will come. Same for the plastic bags, and much more typical Thai things. When as a foreigner you come to Thailand, they expect the same as they had home. And we complain, it is in our roots, that's why we developed more than the Thais or other eastern countries. Just accept you are in Thailand, and not everything is perfect. But on the other hand, this "not everything perfect thing" is attracting the foreigner to come to Thailand, because he feels more at ease than in his home country. I am for democracy in Thailand, but that will take a long time.

[spysee]

Yeah Thai's are pretty bad, but Aussies are worse. You should see Sydney on new years day. crap is everywhere.

But Sydney have spent alot of money on cleaning tools and machines so the cleaners make it look spotless in no time.

Thailand dont have many bins anywhere which is a big problem too, if there were alot more I think it would be a massive help.

I have travelled alot and have seen alot worse though.

[Thaddeus]

Yeah Thai's are pretty bad, but Aussies are worse. You should see Sydney on new years day. crap is everywhere.

But Sydney have spent alot of money on cleaning tools and machines so the cleaners make it look spotless in no time.

It's still full of Australians though, so the clean-up operation can't be that good.

(joke)

[Thaddeus]

I agree, education is the key. It takes time, it will come.

And education begins at home.

My little step-daughter used to be a litter-bug, why?

Because she was only doing what her mother did, and her mother only did it because her grand-mother did it. (see my previous explanation on page one of this thread for the reason)

I had trash-cans outside the house, and when ever Noo just carelessly dropped an ice-cream wrapper on the ground, I would pick it up myself and throw it away properly, but I would make dammed sure that she saw what I was doing.

The first time she did it herself, she got an extra ice-cream.

If you can't teach them to stop littering their own back yard, how on earth can you expect them to stop littering someone else's.

[Chaimai]

And education begins at home.

My little step-daughter used to be a litter-bug, why?

Because she was only doing what her mother did, and her mother only did it because her grand-mother did it. (see my previous explanation on page one of this thread for the reason)

I had trash-cans outside the house, and when ever Noo just carelessly dropped an ice-cream wrapper on the ground, I would pick it up myself and throw it away properly, but I would make dammed sure that she saw what I was doing.

The first time she did it herself, she got an extra ice-cream.

If you can't teach them to stop littering their own back yard, how on earth can you expect them to stop littering someone else's.

Excellent post. I am sure that the growing Falang population will help (if they make the effort like you have) but it will take a Regal campaign to get Thai adults to adopt the same sense of responsibility.

[spysee]

I think a few adverts on TV would go along way. Wont make a huge difference straight away, but it would be a start.

[getgoin]

Lazy.

[Datsun240Z]

Why don't they just put a big sign on the road, please dump your shit here.

[MiG16]

not saying its not a problem

but certainly not restricted to thailand, and certainly not unseen in the west

2 scenes that come immediately to mind:

* on a ferry to Koh Lan (pattaya) some years back, I saw 2 farangs finish their coke cans and throw them straight into the sea! I didnt speak english then, so didnt know how/what to say, but just gave them a stare. they didnt pay me any attention. (was really still just a kid at the time)

* outside the Heineken music hall in Amsterdam - a huge group of young people (all farangs) sitting on floor ( I presume waiting for some concert to start, and doors to open). I go inside Stadium opposite from concert hall (Amsterdam Arena, home of Ajax ) come out some hours later. walk out, the crowd is gone from the entrance to hall. but in their stead they had left an INCREDIBLE AMOUNT of rubbish remains. imagine something like 2-3 items of rubbish for every person (about 100 or so?) that were sitting outside the concert hall!! (to be honest, never seen so much rubbish in a public place ever! not even after a big new year's eve street party in Sydney, or even Kings Cross red light district at 3 or 4am, after all the party revellers and drunks have done their bit!)

[JetsetBkk]

I think a few adverts on TV would go along way. Wont make a huge difference straight away, but it would be a start.

Definitely. Ads like this might help:

[Chaimai]

A friend worked for the National Trust in the UK and on one occasion I complained to him about the lack of rubbish bins in their car parks. The response was that if they had bins they often over-flow and people have to be employed to keep them clean and tidy and there were costs of disposal - if there are no bins the visitors take away their rubbish and dispose of it elsewhere.

Could this work in Thailand ?.................. No Way !

In the UK generally, and specifically with patrons of the National Trust, there is a respect for property and basic 'manners'. So whilst I don't agree with the policy, I can see how it could work.

I think there are two issues:-

1) Waste creation and

2) Waste disposal

The first one needs to be tackled with education and instilling a sense of pride. Most villages I have been to are not well maintained and litter can be found everywhere. Disposing of waste in the correct place has to be a first lesson.

To support that, there must be a readily available supply of waste bins and a good collection method - the latter seems to exist in many areas that I have visited.

I agree entirely that slovenly attitudes and actions are passed down from previous generations. The sooner education and awareness (advertising/campaigns) begins, the sooner we will see a green and pleasant land.

[bonobo]

I think it is part cultural, part practical.

The practical is an issue, too. There simply are not many trash receptacles around. Near my condo, cars would slow down, then toss bags of garbage out the window onto the side of the road. It got so bad that they had to erect a fence to stop it.

Hey Mr. B. I used to live in Bangkok near Victory Monument. There was a nice park in the area between Soi Rang Nam and another major road (forgot the name.) There were many trash cans and guess what, the Thais used them. There actually seemed to be a real sense of civic pride and the public really took care of the place. I voted that the Thais don't care about litter, but I believe that they know it is not correct to do so. I have seen first hand that they can put litter in the trash can--when they want to.

Your post supports my point that some of it is just the practical aspect.  There aren't many trash receptaclesa around, so people litter.  But if there were more available, just as in the park about which you write, they would use the bins and not litter.

[sirineou]

I do sales in Phuket and am on the roads here a lot.

It just amazes me how often I see garbage just being thrown out of vehicles. I've even seen the schoolkids in the back of a school carrier just launch trash out. On the back of a motorbike, I see people just throw plastic bottles. Nobody says a word, it's like nothing........

Is it because labor is cheap and they know at some point somebody will come pick it up? Do they just not care? Is it just a cultural thing where once that garbage has left their immediate presence it doesn't matter anymore, not their concern?

I don't think Thais are any more of a liter bug than any other national, In fact I was in BKK riding the sky train, and i remember thinking how clean it was, given the tremendous number of people who ride it.

In the seventies I remember driving in New York in the then infamous south Bronx area and seeing windows in the abandoned buildings covered with pictures of windows with flower pots and smiling people in them, when I inquired to a city official as to why the need and cost, to cover the broken windows with pictures of windows with happy families and flowers in it, he explained:

Humans he said are herd animals, if they see a building with a few windows broken, they view that, as an invitation to brake the rest, in fact they find the need irresistible, The same applies to garbage, if there is a lot of garbage on the floor, people (some not all, regardless if they are Thai or any other nationality,.) see it as permit ion to through their garbage also. Thus observe your behavior with a gum wrapper in the sky Train, ( do you want o be the only ass throwing it on the floor) or in a littered street, (perhaps you will throw it on the floor with out even thinking).

So to conclude, I restate , Thais are no deferent than any other people , they react to their cultural dynamics in the same way any other human being would.

[7baht]

I agree with the OP everybody in Thailand appears to be tossing the trash funny isnt it when u try to address the issue the mai Pen rai farangs start reminding you of the world wide problem and stop complaining about Thailand hahahahahahahah. I dont know who is worst the Thais or these farang guys with the maipenrai denial facture. off topic is it time to have a beer?

[Absingjul]

Don't litter

[7baht]

laws have to be enforoced to stop the open littering in Thailand thats the problem only laws enforced seem

to be the ones aimed at the poor. Mr Somechai with the funny hair doesnt think it applies to his blue blooded family.

[loong]

........... I voted that the Thais don't care about litter, but I believe that they know it is not correct to do so. I have seen first hand that they can put litter in the trash can--when they want to.

Your post supports my point that some of it is just the practical aspect. There aren't many trash receptacles around, so people litter. But if there were more available, just as in the park about which you write, they would use the bins and not litter.

I'm sorry to say that many people will not always use bins even where they are provided, especially if it means walking a few paces. It really annoys me when I see drink cartons and other rubbish left on benches outside 7-11s. A bin right next to the bench.

I agree with many here, it is a learning thing. How many of you have had teenage kids and noticed the state of their bedrooms? For some reason young people usually don't care about living in a mess. What happens in the time that these teenagers grow into adults? A few will carry their messy habits into adulthood, but many become houseproud adults who do not litter.

[toptuan]

If we get to vote, put me in the "They don't care" camp. I agree that contributing factors are no trash cans and the idea of "No big deal, the street sweeper will clean it up." Hey, it makes for more employment.

But its a relative thing. Ever been to Bangladesh? Talk about litter...

I live on a soi with two houses occupied by foreigners and two houses occupied by Thai. While not a trace of trash around the foreigners' homes, it's almost ridiculous to see how you can identify the Thai homes by the huge quantities of garbage strewn about--we're talking broken toilets, metal poles, broken glass, etc.--not just plastic bags.

[simonphuket]

If we get to vote, put me in the "They don't care" camp. I agree that contributing factors are no trash cans and the idea of "No big deal, the street sweeper will clean it up." Hey, it makes for more employment.

But its a relative thing. Ever been to Bangladesh? Talk about litter...

I live on a soi with two houses occupied by foreigners and two houses occupied by Thai. While not a trace of trash around the foreigners' homes, it's almost ridiculous to see how you can identify the Thai homes by the huge quantities of garbage strewn about--we're talking broken toilets, metal poles, broken glass, etc.--not just plastic bags.

agree there, our places tend to be more tidy, that is, in our opinion. But only because we have learned that the ceramic, plastic bags and glass is untidy and garbage. For them it is just, well, glass and plastic etc. It might not be considered litter?

I was talking to a Thai guy owning a small bar here and he was wondering why one of the other bars on the beach was more busy than his. I said, just look at yours and his, what do you see. He could not really see much difference, but his place in my eyes was messy, almost dirty looking, whilst the other guys bar looked more inviting as it was cleaner and better maintained. We westerners might percieve things differently, different cultures. Like others said before, education might be the key-word here (if we want them to be more like us....).

[eek]

Any chance people can reconsider talking about this issue in terms of ALL Thai people...?

[thaihome]

Not littering is a learned habit and it would or will take more than a generation to change the habit they now have.

I am in my sixties. When I was a young pup in the US littering was just as big an issue in the 50's and early 60's. In those days there were no plastics per se but paper and other sh*t was a problem and there was no such thing as bio-degradable.

The US then started a campaign to vigorously teach people to not litter. It started in many facets but it was education mainly. It became fashionable to sport litter bags and point fingers at the litterbugs and shame them into going along.Teachers in schools brainwashed the kids and the kids fell in line. They went home and pestered the crap out of the parents. It all took time and money. Advertising and whatever. Now 50 plus years later when we see someone throwing out the trash we all shutter. It could happen here but they have to educate "all" Thais and make it a status thing to keep up with the other Somchai in the next house or car. It took centuries to learn to live the way they do now and maybe it will take 50 or so more years to un-learn their bad habits

Exactly what I was going to post. It would seem most of the members here are too young to remember the American Indian guy with the tear in his eye that another poster has shown.

They come to Thailand and see and judge everything in the context of their own upbringing and culture. In fact, Thailand has started a small campaign on this issue. But it is going to take a while to catch on.

TH

Edited June 5, 2009 by thaihome

[thaihome]

i live on a soi with two houses occupied by foreigners and two houses occupied by Thai. While not a trace of trash around the foreigners' homes, it's almost ridiculous to see how you can identify the Thai homes by the huge quantities of garbage strewn about--we're talking broken toilets, metal poles, broken glass, etc.--not just plastic bags.

You sound exactly like people back in the days of segrated housing in the US.

TH

Edited June 5, 2009 by thaihome

[filingaccount]

The thread is very long with quite repetitive statements, so if my comments have been addressed I apologize.

HUMANS are selfish in general. Looking out for #1 is essential for survival. Don't think about the "society" today, but how evolution has crafted us to become what we are today. All throughout human history we have seen destruction of "natural" habitat for human expansion. Yes, from the cavemen who cleared paths and eventually started planting crops to the situation we see today.

Humans, evolutionary speaking, has not caught up with the advancement of technology and thus the "comforts" it provides. eg. no more manual labor needed to collect food.

One could liken the human population growth to that of rats (although on a longer timescale). More food, less effort (calories) to collect the food, the bigger the population numbers. Inevitably the food supply will run short, and population will drastically diminish.

You can not change human behavior in a relatively very short time (a couple of generations). It will take quite a while for humans to adapt to the current conditions, and that is assuming these conditions will be stable. This is of course not going to happen. Things change very quickly, and the pace is picking up.

No matter how hard one might try, humans will stay selfish and always seek the easy way out. Sure, we will preach about "betterment" and perhaps make a small effort, but we will never leave the comforts (whatever they may be) of our own homes.

Human "activity", people say, is killing the planet.

This is total and utter bullcrap. "The planet is fine, its us humans that are f#cked."

We are simply just killing off the conditions that make the planet habitable to us. Life on this planet has gone through worse, and life has bounced back, even from 99% extinction - several times. This is just simply another extinction event, but our frame of reference doesn't allow us to "see" it. One humans life is simply too short.

This is getting very long winded, and tiring. Just one more point though to emphasize my point above.

The dinosaurs, popular topic when it comes to "quick" removal of a line of species, didn't die out in a day or 2. It took a good several thousand years before they were gone. Similar trends are seen today with species going extinct rapidly.

Can anyone today say they feel confident that species that exists today will survive several thousand years?

Finally. A simple conclusion to the original topic, Thai's are doing no worse nor better than any other human throughout history.

[toptuan]

Not littering is a learned habit and it would or will take more than a generation to change the habit they now have.

I am in my sixties. When I was a young pup in the US littering was just as big an issue in the 50's and early 60's. In those days there were no plastics per se but paper and other sh*t was a problem and there was no such thing as bio-degradable.

The US then started a campaign to vigorously teach people to not litter. It started in many facets but it was education mainly. It became fashionable to sport litter bags and point fingers at the litterbugs and shame them into going along.Teachers in schools brainwashed the kids and the kids fell in line. They went home and pestered the crap out of the parents. It all took time and money. Advertising and whatever. Now 50 plus years later when we see someone throwing out the trash we all shutter. It could happen here but they have to educate "all" Thais and make it a status thing to keep up with the other Somchai in the next house or car. It took centuries to learn to live the way they do now and maybe it will take 50 or so more years to un-learn their bad habits

Exactly what I was going to post. It would seem most of the members here are too young to remember the American Indian guy with the tear in his eye that another poster has shown.

They come to Thailand and see and judge everything in the context of their own upbringing and culture. In fact, Thailand has started a small campaign on this issue. But it is going to take a while to catch on.

TH

As my British friends say with their strange English..."SPOT ON." Thailand is now exactly where North America and Europe were in the 60's in regards to matters of pollution.

I remember flying with my dad in his small private plane after getting his pilot's license. While flying, he produced a mountain of trash while consuming a fast-food meal (yes, while at the controls). What to do with it? Opened a window and let 'er fly with the comment: "The world is my trashcan!"

Such was the attitude of a host of Americans back then.

Give 'em time. Of course, we'll all be dead by the affects of Thai pollution by then, but that was part of the Faustian deal of coming here, right?

Edited June 5, 2009 by toptuan

[tuky]

Our pollution footprint is far greater than Thais

What a load of crap.

In Australia for example, polystyrene packaging was done away with in the 80's. CFC's are illegal etc etc.

Thais have no environmental awareness from what I have seen.

I put a plastic garbage bag in my car and berated my FiL whenever he threw sh1t out the window...his reaction? laugh and say Stupid <deleted> farang. When I spoke with the wife about this she said the same thing.

If you did that in Aust. you would become an outcast. If you put your rubbish in a bin in Thailand you are an outcast.

[jumnien]

Per capita, Australia produces far more garbage and hydrocarbons than Thailand.

[simonphuket]

Per capita, Australia produces far more garbage and hydrocarbons than Thailand.

and recycles and manages its waste much much better than Thailand.....

[loong]

Per capita, Australia produces far more garbage and hydrocarbons than Thailand.

I would really like to know how these statistics are arrived at. I'm sure that they don't have people running around measuring the waste that is produced. I would guess that estimates play a big part.

Maybe they sample a cross section. If so, a community that diligently places all their waste into their bins will appear to produce more waste than a community that discards their waste anywhere.

One area where Thailand probably excels (just my opinion - no statistics) is recycling. Plastic, bottles and metals, cardboard and paper are recycled here in a big way. Admittedly, it's because people can earn money collecting recyclables.

In the Uk, local councils introduced recycling bins some years ago. One bin for recyclables and another for other waste. I was amazed at what a difference it made. My household actually produced very little waste that did not go into the recycling bin. I was also amazed at how many people could not be bothered to separate their waste.

Back to recycling.. There is the "why bother" factor. I try to keep the area round the house clear, but every wind brings other people's rubbish onto our property. Sometimes I think "why bother " myself.

The roads and grounds around this village are full of rubbish. Yet I go to a nearby small town and I am struck by how tidy it is. That community obviously all work together to keep litter to a minimum. Yes some Thais do try to keep their environment litter free.

The first time I walk around the field opposite the house collecting rubbish and tidying it up, my girlfriend asked what I was doing, "It's not your problem" . I told her it was my problem as it offends my eyes. I want to enjoy what scenery there is without being distracted by piles of rubbish. The locals probably thought that I was crazy, but they all thought that I was doing a good thing. A few locals actually started to follow suit and keep the area around their property tidy. But it's a losing battle and eventually the "why bother" factor comes back.

The only way to improve the litter situation is for everybody to work together and there is really only one way to make everybody work together here.

There is one great man, the Father of the Thai people, who loves his country and his people. The people love him and listen when he speaks. If he was aware of the amount of littering in Thailand, I'm sure that he would speak out. If he did, I think that the people would listen.

[WaiWai]

on the whole Thai's are very selfish and dont care about anything except themselves...

Blunt , but hits on a fundamental cultural truth, I think.

Several people have made good points about both some of the causes of the problem and some possible solutions. Just to add ...

Re causes:

In Thailand, China, some other Asian (and, no doubt, some other non-Asian) cultures, one's "sphere of responsibilty" tends to end strictly at the boundaries of one's property. Homes and gardens may be kept immaculately while the rubbish dumped directly outside is someone else's problem*. This way of thinking is related to the relative (sorry for pun ) strictness regarding those who may be included in Thais' "inner circle" of people (as in other Asian, and quite a few non-Asian cultures).

Even when it should be apparent that dumping waste, whether close to home or not, cannot be good for *oneself*, somehow that very strong cultural value seems to over-rule other values & thoughts.

Re solutions:

*There are still many people who forage for a living -- this practice need not end with better waste management measures.

I think the trendification of the use of recycling in general (e.g. cloth shopping bags which advertise the fact that one is "kewl" enough to be aware of international thinking) could definitely help here (and be culturally appropriate ) . A few film or soapie stars could do a great deal to help this cause, whilst, of course, offering the chance to promote their wonderful selves .