Obama's Speech & Southern Islamic Separatists

[garro]

You are a real fu7ck wit for blindly calling something childish !

I believe in Jesus, I believe in Muhammad and I believe in Buddha and all the other saints in every religion, I just do not think they received the words they spoke from God but rather thought up their social teachings by themselves. It was institutions that turned these teachings into religion to command some sort of power, legal structure and fear over the general population.

Any of that childish for you, you silly little pri7ck !

If you read my post you will see that I never called anybody childish. You, however, have moved very quickly from rational debate to personal attacks.

[bonobo]

People like Bin Laden are attracted to the power and not necessarily the money. There will always be people that support war and terrorism. Without the support of a vast number of people though they would just join the other loons on internet forums. Muslims have legitimate fears and grievances which are being manipulated.

The idea that Muslims are trying to take over the world is created by people out to cause mischief. Islam has a great history of tolerance. During the Ottoman Empire, Christians often fled there to avoid persecution from other Christians. With the exception of Saudi, you see Christian communities in most Muslim countries. For centuries the small numbers of Muslims in Europe were treated with great mistrust and suffered from the same bigotries as did the Jews.

Islam does have some history of tolerance.  The problem is that now, with modern communications and ease of travel, the public perception is based on whatever minority it is that vocally and vociforously advocate a conversion of the world to Islam and the use of violence to attain this goal if necessary.  The Muslims who live in Europe and live normal, every day lives do not get any press.  But people like Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed are regularly on television and in the papers. The danger with tis is that this minority view can actually become a majority view with the right exposure and series of events.

You are right about bin Laden.  I went to school with one of his half-brothers and knew two more of them.  This was during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.  At the time, the three brothers were rather perplexed by Osama's actions, particulary the spending of his share of the family fortune on a cause.  There was a little bit of pride in there, too, but they really didn't understand his seemingly complete lack of care about nicer aspects of life his wealth could bring.

[Richb2004v2]

I work with Muslims and their opinion has always been that the election of Obama is just another sign that Islam is the one true religion and this is another step towards its world domination. To them Obama is as good as being a muslim, and that in time he will turn back completely to Islam, and then of course influence the US towards Islam. I think this is nonsense, but now they will I am sure see this speech as another indication that they are right.

[bravingbangkok]

"A childish idea"

meaning one who is childish.....hmmm so you never called me childish ???

Look the very fact that you made the communism speech and did not even know Karl Marx was born a Jew just tells me their is no point in talking to someone who claims to know so much but actually only knows the covers of books and not that actual content.

[skipvice]

How come this post has not been closed yet??? Its so off already

[bravingbangkok]

I work with Muslims and their opinion has always been that the election of Obama is just another sign that Islam is the one true religion and this is another step towards its world domination. To them Obama is as good as being a muslim, and that in time he will turn back completely to Islam, and then of course influence the US towards Islam. I think this is nonsense, but now they will I am sure see this speech as another indication that they are right.

And there are no Christians or Jews who think the same, that they are the dominant race and must command over one and all ?

[Richb2004v2]

I work with Muslims and their opinion has always been that the election of Obama is just another sign that Islam is the one true religion and this is another step towards its world domination. To them Obama is as good as being a muslim, and that in time he will turn back completely to Islam, and then of course influence the US towards Islam. I think this is nonsense, but now they will I am sure see this speech as another indication that they are right.

And there are no Christians or Jews who think the same, that they are the dominant race and must command over one and all ?

There probably are, its just that I have never met any of them. Have you?

[bonobo]

The silly argument that all wars were started by religion is just absurd. Hitler, Pol-Pot, Stalin, et al were not famous for their religious activities.

Look the very fact that you made the communism speech and did not even know Karl Marx was born a Jew just tells me their is no point in talking to someone who claims to know so much but actually only knows the covers of books and not that actual content.

Am I missing something here?  Where did garro post that Karl Marx was not Jewish?  And what does his being Jewish have anything to do with Stalin and war? Besides, Marx was from a Jewish Lutheran family. he was baptized as a Christian. Of course, he is far better known for being an atheist later on in his life.

Hitler was Christian.  Pol-pot an atheist (although born a Buddhist and having studied at both Theravadan Buddhist and Roman Catholic schools).  Does that make their atrocities religious atrocities?

Edited June 5, 2009 by bonobo

[bravingbangkok]

It is not a question of whether you have met them or not but rather a question of why are they there and why are there Muslims who think the way that you have just described.

It is all about God and fear of his wrath when you die hahaha what a load of shi5t, one day someone is going to come from a galaxy far away and probably be far more advanced than we are then here of this God and stain his apnts with laughter.

The only reason religion was created was to create order and fear, they made this God up because the one way in which they could be proved wrong is by someone coming back from the dead and saying yep guys they were right there is a God just had tea with him, thoroughly nice bloke. That just isn't going to happen is it ?

[bravingbangkok]

The silly argument that all wars were started by religion is just absurd. Hitler, Pol-Pot, Stalin, et al were not famous for their religious activities.

Look the very fact that you made the communism speech and did not even know Karl Marx was born a Jew just tells me their is no point in talking to someone who claims to know so much but actually only knows the covers of books and not that actual content.

Am I missing something here? Where did garro post that Karl marx was not Jewish? And what does his being Jewish have anything to do with Stalin and war?

Hitler was Christian. Pol-pot an atheist (although born a Buddhist and having studied at both Theravadan Buddhist and Roman Catholic schools). Does that make their atrocities religious atrocities?

I never said it did, did I ? please feel free to quote me where I said that.

Who knows, Hitler may have been a stooge for the Catholic church ! The Catholics have always had a problem with Jews.

Also the very fact that he is basing my comment on the past 80 years is just ridiculous, if he thinks religious rivalry started in the 1900's then he needs to read a few more books.

[Richb2004v2]

It is not a question of whether you have met them or not but rather a question of why are they there and why are there Muslims who think the way that you have just described.

It is all about God and fear of his wrath when you die hahaha what a load of shi5t, one day someone is going to come from a galaxy far away and probably be far more advanced than we are then here of this God and stain his apnts with laughter.

The only reason religion was created was to create order and fear, they made this God up because the one way in which they could be proved wrong is by someone coming back from the dead and saying yep guys they were right there is a God just had tea with him, thoroughly nice bloke. That just isn't going to happen is it ?

Well, you just implied that there are as many Christians and Jews wishing to control and take over the world. I admit that I am not as aware of this. So I would now like you to tell me where and give me some information. So, it is a question of if you have met them or if you can validate your statement. We know there are Muslims, Jews and Christians because of religion. We don't need to be told that.

You need to review your posts. You're coming across as some sort of lunatic.

[bonobo]

The silly argument that all wars were started by religion is just absurd. Hitler, Pol-Pot, Stalin, et al were not famous for their religious activities.

Look the very fact that you made the communism speech and did not even know Karl Marx was born a Jew just tells me their is no point in talking to someone who claims to know so much but actually only knows the covers of books and not that actual content.

Am I missing something here? Where did garro post that Karl marx was not Jewish? And what does his being Jewish have anything to do with Stalin and war?

Hitler was Christian. Pol-pot an atheist (although born a Buddhist and having studied at both Theravadan Buddhist and Roman Catholic schools). Does that make their atrocities religious atrocities?

I never said it did, did I ? please feel free to quote me where I said that.

Who knows, Hitler may have been a stooge for the Catholic church ! The Catholics have always had a problem with Jews.

Also the very fact that he is basing my comment on the past 80 years is just ridiculous, if he thinks religious rivalry started in the 1900's then he needs to read a few more books.

No, you didn't specifically say that, but you did specifically write that he didn't know that Marx was Jewish.  How do you know what he does or doesn't know if he posts nothing about it?  I would infer from your wording in your post  that you didn't know that as far as religion, Marx was actually a baptized Christian, but I would never post that as a fact as you never actually posted that.

And your thinking that he "thinks religious rivarly started in the 1900's" is a rather stretch.  Garro is pretty obviously someone who has had an adequate education, and the religious wars of the past millenium are quite well known to even the least-educated people.

[bravingbangkok]

It is not a question of whether you have met them or not but rather a question of why are they there and why are there Muslims who think the way that you have just described.

It is all about God and fear of his wrath when you die hahaha what a load of shi5t, one day someone is going to come from a galaxy far away and probably be far more advanced than we are then here of this God and stain his apnts with laughter.

The only reason religion was created was to create order and fear, they made this God up because the one way in which they could be proved wrong is by someone coming back from the dead and saying yep guys they were right there is a God just had tea with him, thoroughly nice bloke. That just isn't going to happen is it ?

Well, you just implied that there are as many Christians and Jews wishing to control and take over the world. I admit that I am not as aware of this. So I would now like you to tell me where and give me some information. So, it is a question of if you have met them or if you can validate your statement. We know there are Muslims, Jews and Christians because of religion. We don't need to be told that.

You need to review your posts. You're coming across as some sort of lunatic.

Well you are coming across as someone who has met every single Muslim there is in the world, so you have been around Muslims, where and in which country ?

Why would I personally know fundamentalists ? I ask you the question do you think that their are no Christians or Jews who have the same morals and feelings as the Muslims you described ?

In no way am I a lunatic and please tell me which part of any post I have made is crazy ?

[bravingbangkok]

So why has he only targeted 3 wars ? just to make his argument look better ? "Okay so to make me look right I shall concentrate on the last 80 years and forget the other 1000 or so"...............................??????? hel_l of a way to prove a point.

[bravingbangkok]

Look there are so many connections with Judaism and communism, Stalin was a communist right ?

Just read around and you will see that communism has a connection with religion and that the Catholic church did nothing to stop the extermination of the Jews.

Religion is always involved in everything. The EU is just the new Roman Catholic empire.

[bonobo]

So why has he only targeted 3 wars ? just to make his argument look better ? "Okay so to make me look right I shall concentrate on the last 80 years and forget the other 1000 or so"...............................??????? hel_l of a way to prove a point.

At the risk of speaking for him, he posted that "not all wars" were caused by religion, as you had asserted.  Then he picked a few low-hanging fruit with which to refute the "all" in your assertion.  I am sure, if he wanted to, he could have gone and posted a list of wars over the last 2000 years which were not religiously motivated, but quite frankly, all he needed to do was list one to prove his contention.

(Garro, I don't mean to speak for you or your thoughts.  I am just taking a possible stab at them to respond to bravingbangkok.)

[bravingbangkok]

It is not a question of whether you have met them or not but rather a question of why are they there and why are there Muslims who think the way that you have just described.

It is all about God and fear of his wrath when you die hahaha what a load of shi5t, one day someone is going to come from a galaxy far away and probably be far more advanced than we are then here of this God and stain his apnts with laughter.

The only reason religion was created was to create order and fear, they made this God up because the one way in which they could be proved wrong is by someone coming back from the dead and saying yep guys they were right there is a God just had tea with him, thoroughly nice bloke. That just isn't going to happen is it ?

Well, you just implied that there are as many Christians and Jews wishing to control and take over the world. I admit that I am not as aware of this. So I would now like you to tell me where and give me some information. So, it is a question of if you have met them or if you can validate your statement. We know there are Muslims, Jews and Christians because of religion. We don't need to be told that.

You need to review your posts. You're coming across as some sort of lunatic.

They do not want to take over the world because they already own the world, do you not believe for 1 minute that Jews are not in control of the worlds finances and banks ?

That is a form of world domination and not only are they in control but they also believe they have the right to be and that they are the chosen people.

Do not get me wrong I am by no means a supporter of what you have quoted about Muslims but I am also not in support of the current world domination which falls into the hands of the Jews and Christians.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Interesting discussion.. Pretty much nobody actually addressed the question posed, but if this allows a nice political discussion that doesn't get axed then all the better.

Still: It won't affect the South of Thailand because it's not primarily a religious conflict. It's an ethnic/territorial conflict.

Keep in mind most Muslims in other provinces in Thailand are perfectly upstanding citizens of Thailand, feel they're Thais, love the king and all that.

Even the OP, well meant as it is, reinforces that the Southern issue is a religious one related to 'Muslims'. It isn't. It's an ethnic conflict where *some* extremists in the Malay/Yawi speaking segment of the polulation don't want to be a part of Thailand. The conflict goes back for more than a century.

Edited June 5, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[bravingbangkok]

So why has he only targeted 3 wars ? just to make his argument look better ? "Okay so to make me look right I shall concentrate on the last 80 years and forget the other 1000 or so"...............................??????? hel_l of a way to prove a point.

At the risk of speaking for him, he posted that "not all wars" were caused by religion, as you had asserted. Then he picked a few low-hanging fruit with which to refute the "all" in your assertion. I am sure, if he wanted to, he could have gone and posted a list of wars over the last 2000 years which were not religiously motivated, but quite frankly, all he needed to do was list one to prove his contention.

(Garro, I don't mean to speak for you or your thoughts. I am just taking a possible stab at them to respond to bravingbangkok.)

Low hanging.....Lebanese civil war ????? you could have picked that one, the Balkans ??????? could have picked that one. He didn't because he wanted ot prove his point which is anyway wrong because to claim that WW2 had nothing to do with relgion is just silly.

millions of people were killed for being a certain religion !

[garro]

So why has he only targeted 3 wars ? just to make his argument look better ? "Okay so to make me look right I shall concentrate on the last 80 years and forget the other 1000 or so"...............................??????? hel_l of a way to prove a point.

At the risk of speaking for him, he posted that "not all wars" were caused by religion, as you had asserted.  Then he picked a few low-hanging fruit with which to refute the "all" in your assertion.  I am sure, if he wanted to, he could have gone and posted a list of wars over the last 2000 years which were not religiously motivated, but quite frankly, all he needed to do was list one to prove his contention.

(Garro, I don't mean to speak for you or your thoughts.  I am just taking a possible stab at them to respond to bravingbangkok.)

Feel free bonobo

I don't believe that it would be possible for me to present my thoughts in a suitable format for bravingbangkok.

Sometimes all I can do is read and scratch my head.

[bravingbangkok]

So why has he only targeted 3 wars ? just to make his argument look better ? "Okay so to make me look right I shall concentrate on the last 80 years and forget the other 1000 or so"...............................??????? hel_l of a way to prove a point.

At the risk of speaking for him, he posted that "not all wars" were caused by religion, as you had asserted. Then he picked a few low-hanging fruit with which to refute the "all" in your assertion. I am sure, if he wanted to, he could have gone and posted a list of wars over the last 2000 years which were not religiously motivated, but quite frankly, all he needed to do was list one to prove his contention.

(Garro, I don't mean to speak for you or your thoughts. I am just taking a possible stab at them to respond to bravingbangkok.)

Feel free bonobo

I don't believe that it would be possible for me to present my thoughts in a suitable format for bravingbangkok.

Sometimes all I can do is read and scratch my head.

You have nothing else to say because you cannot say anything else. Do not try and make it out like it is impossible to debate me just because you are wrong.

Edited June 5, 2009 by bravingbangkok

[Jingthing]

bravingbangkok said: They do not want to take over the world because they already own the world, do you not believe for 1 minute that Jews are not in control of the worlds finances and banks ?

That is a form of world domination and not only are they in control but they also believe they have the right to be and that they are the chosen people.

Do not get me wrong I am by no means a supporter of what you have quoted about Muslims but I am also not in support of the current world domination which falls into the hands of the Jews and Christians.

No, I do not believe for one minute that Jews are in control of the world's finances and banks. Also note, BTW, that Jews are found among many nationalities, just like all other religions. Reading these same old same old antisemitic lies makes me sick that in this modern age so many people still believe it. Yes, also this chosen people crapola has been used by antisemites throughout history to whip up paranoid conspiracy theories about Jews (refer to Elders of Zion). Most religions believe they are the correct religion, that is not exclusive to Jews. The one very unusual thing about Jews is they do not actively convert and this also fires up the paranoid imaginations of antisemites because they think Jews are snobs and don't want them. Well, OK that part may have a grain of truth, Jews don't want you to convert, be what you are, is that a problem? They are kind of like Thais that way, best way to be Thai, be BORN a Thai ...

Caveat: I am NOT accusing you of being an antisemite, I am saying what you wrote reflects classic antisemitic THINKING; I don't know you personally, so I can only go by the text of what you write.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Jingthing

[bravingbangkok]

They do not want to take over the world because they already own the world, do you not believe for 1 minute that Jews are not in control of the worlds finances and banks ?

That is a form of world domination and not only are they in control but they also believe they have the right to be and that they are the chosen people.

Do not get me wrong I am by no means a supporter of what you have quoted about Muslims but I am also not in support of the current world domination which falls into the hands of the Jews and Christians.

No, I do not believe for one minute that Jews are in control of the world's finances and banks. Also not, BTW, that Jews are found among many nationalities, just like all other religions. Reading these same old same old antisemitic lies makes me sick that in this modern age so many ignorant people still believe it.

What a complete tosser you are to call someone antisemitic because they think that Jews are in control of the world finances !

[bravingbangkok]

"Most religions believe they are the correct religion"

Thank you very much that is the point I have been trying to make, forgive me for calling a tosser but I do no take kindly to being called antisemitic when I am clearly not and no comment I have made is.

I am anti all this religious crap, it has brought this world nothing but trouble. The Jews have taken far worse than they have given !

Edited June 5, 2009 by bravingbangkok

[Jingthing]

Thank you very much that is the point I have been trying to make, forgive me for calling a tosser but I do no take kindly to being called antisemitic when I am clearly not and no comment I have made is.

I EXPLICITLY did not call you an antisemite, so read my post completely before you make false accusations.

[bravingbangkok]

What so just because you like Ketchup does it mean you like tomatoes ?

I am sorry if you think me making that statement makes me antisemitic but I feel it is true, I also feel that if they worked for it then what is the problem and why should they not be in control ??????

I never actually made a reference to my feeling about them being in control only stated that they were.

Okay fine you didn't but it is still not an antisemitic comment to make, how can it be ?

Edited June 5, 2009 by bravingbangkok

[Jingthing]

I never actually made a reference to my feeling about them being in control only stated that they were.

"They" are not. I think we are finished here; you believe what you believe and although misinformation like that makes me sick, that's my problem, not yours. Carry on ...

Why does it make sick? Here is why:

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/5374_13.htm

"The idea that there is Jewish control of the banking system and the world economy has its antecedents in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Nazi-era propaganda."

Edited June 5, 2009 by Jingthing

[bravingbangkok]

Well that is your belief and you have every right to it of course, at least this whole page has make the point in which I was trying to make.

"Most religions believe they are the correct religion" and not just Muslims as the a previous poster seems to think.

[bonobo]

Low hanging.....Lebanese civil war ????? you could have picked that one, the Balkans ??????? could have picked that one. He didn't because he wanted ot prove his point which is anyway wrong because to claim that WW2 had nothing to do with relgion is just silly.

millions of people were killed for being a certain religion !

I will try one last time as I sit here scratching my head trying to understand your thought process.

Garro maintained that not all wars are caused by religion.  He picked three men who were not motivated by religion in their conflicts to prove his point that "not all" wars were fought in the name of religion. One would have been adequate to prove his point, but he gave three.

You repsonded with some a very tangential post about Karl Marx being Jewish (ignoring the fact that  his "Jewishness" was actually his ethnic background, not his religion), and now pointing out two other conflicts.  He never posted that there were no religiously inspired wars!  So you can point out the Crusades, the 30 years War, the Irish "Troubles" and a hundred other conflicts, but that does not refute that not all wars are religious.  

[bravingbangkok]

"and although misinformation"

There is no need for that is there ?