Govt: Foreigners Can't Farm Here

[bina]

from whta i have seen, thai farmers do NOT practice any sort of soil conversation or enrichment programs. they either use too much fertilizer to force an other crop out of the soil, or they dont use any organic or otherwise (too expensive to buy, no longer use buffalo to plow so no shit in the soil either). they dont rotate crops, mono culture is rampant, and the small kitchen garden farming is usually back to back (no useful rotation like legumes after a crop that 'steals' nitrogens, or all together vegetable plots with no thought as to preserving or helping hte soil. pesticides and weed control are all done either haphazardly or heavy handed-ly.

drilling water holes for drinking water has changed the water table and in isaan alkalisation (saltiness) of the water is increasing as well as the in the soil. i had thought like you until i saw for myself. thais love hormones in their vegetables (makes them bigger), and they are used haphazardly. even my sis in law, a hard working farming woman, looked at me wierd when i suggested turning in the soil with compost or manure or even the chemical fertilizers available. since they do every thing manually, it is too hard, and no money to invest in the fertilizers. they finished growing something (maybe it was cassava since she mostly grows cassava), and harvested, and right away replanted. the soil she has is not thrilling. its korat plateu non irrigated, and the soil looks pretty depleted to me. i had wanted to have it analyzed but they said it HAD been analyzed but the agri extension people never came back for the continuation of the 'instuctions/help '. lack of followup and frequent supervision/advice is an other major problem in helping the average somchai to develop and improve farming methods. money money money/resources.

u can check out the organic part of the forum to read about projects that people are attempting in thailand to understand where the difficulties lie.

as far as community,no one helps anyone else even in the family usually unless there is some payment of some sort involved. cooperatives are rare. and from what i understand from my husband , thai dont suss to well to 'cooperatives' (reminders of communsm as he puts it. he should know as we live on a kibbutz, and it drives him beserk)>

bina

israel

bina

israel

[RPCVguy]

from what i have seen, thai farmers do NOT practice any sort of soil conversation ...

u can check out the organic part of the forum to read about projects that people are attempting in thailand to understand where the difficulties lie.

as far as community,no one helps anyone else even in the family usually unless there is some payment of some sort involved. cooperatives are rare. and from what i understand from my husband , thai dont suss to well to 'cooperatives' (reminders of communsm as he puts it. he should know as we live on a kibbutz, and it drives him beserk)>

bina

israel

bina

israel

I appreciate your passion and correct definition as to where to head in terms of land stewardship. Your comments indicate that I either am not yet observing enough of the poor practices, or generalized too kindly. Likely both. I do watch my wife and family exchange produce from gardens. I have seen that most workers (construction AND farm) go from field to field for the rice crops. (there is either payment as rice, or cash) The influx of chemical fertilizers is growing, but recent, and people are both aware of the cost and admiring of our results from adding in Brahma and pig manure. We could taste and easily see the difference in food from plots that had been enriched with the manure. We have not traveled much, but when we did I saw some huge mono-culture farms in the Isaan region, so my statement earlier sounds in error as to "mostly" sustainable. The result will still need to include ways that fed people here for centuries, not those that burn out lands in one or two generations. My main point is in contrast to the post preceeding mine... about big agri-business teaching how to do things right... I believe that sometimes what seems slower and smaller scale may in the long term be better.

[bina]

i agree wholeheartedly but if u ve ever tried to change a farmer's ways of farming,u will know that it is easier to convince him with 'new modern' technology rather then the 'buffalo manure' way. and frankly , some of the newer methods are good. where would we be w/o drip irrigation and the even newer methods being developed?

the thais that 'trade' produce for produce do not do so because they want to but because they dont have the cash to pay with. trading produce is a by-the-way set up. its not a planned set up (i will trade u five trays of eggs for 7 kilos of eggplants) or if it is, that is among family members. most thai prefer cash to pay for school/bills/sanook whatever. i was surprised at how individualized the farmers were, actually. i would have thought more trade would go on, as i am used to trade here (two goat kids for a set of layers, etc. even though barter methods at a business level are illegal for tax purposes, here.) anon prefers, for instance to get cash for his washing machines , rather then crates of tomatoes. how many tomatoes can we possibly eat?

working for a cut in the rice, however, as different, as rice is a stable food item, that doesnt spoil and is always needed.

as far as methods : a (thai) friend of ours just went back to korat a few months ago from his 7 yr stint in israel. he went back with a very good working knowlege of various types of irrigation. he promptly invested all his overseas money in a irrigation system, set up with a friend WHO HAD ALSO WORKED IN THIS SYSTEM and has raised a good crop of corn. (this is important cause thai that arent used to working with these systems, find it difficult to adjust to the hoeing and watering methods-- they cant 'see' the water, if its drip, and when they hoe, they cut the lines; and with sprinklers, they let them run too much.) guys that have worked overseas either managed to learn or they didnt stay in the job. and the majority remain basic workers. this guy actually became in charge of irrigation, so his learning and application curve went up.

oops lost train of thought here.......... anyway, i would love for my in laws to move from mono culture to other options but i cant find the alternatives, and we are too far away to do much about supervising the change. and frankly, here in israel, on my rather well to do kibbutz, agriculture is fast dying out (to the horror of my son and his gung- ho age group and his saying 'agriculture forever')in spite of new methods, old methods, organic, niche, bio diverse and mono culture methods. here we've run out of water. agriculture is just not an option for making a living anymore. we traded anon's rai to his sister for a plot that would double the land for a small house and 'gentlemens' garden . she will continue to hand plant peppers and do cassava, his parents have finished with growing rice (they, horror of horrors, buy their rice as needed), his brother works in a hospital, and two sisters do part time whatever jobs. they no longer keep cows or buffalo (no grazing or money to buy feed) agriculture as a way of life is finished for them.

bina

israel

[jandtaa]

Hi guys

Yeah unfortunately I have to agree with Bina, agriculture up here where I am is in a pretty sorry state.Most families have about 15-20 rai and grow a single rice crop per year. About 5 years ago many grew garlic and shallots between rice but after Thaksins disasterous free trade agreement with China that no longer happens. Some do manage to grow a maize crop but only if they have access to mains water for irrigation. Some neighbours have tried to do eggplants and chillies but failed miserably due to lack of knowledge about cultivation practices (they grew chilli seedlings in a nursery bed far to densely seeded, resulting in very stretched plants and then ripped them up trimmed off the roots and cut back the stems before replanting (just like they do rice).I was given some of the leggy seedlings and out of consideration stuck them in my kitchen garden, everyone came round and told me I needed to cut all the leaves off to get a good crop !! 

Organic methods are just not practised full stop apart from a few of the older women in their kitchen gardens !! My compost heaps cause much amusement although people are more than happy to give me their vegetable scraps.

Hopefully my little project if successful may encourage locals to try some organic low input methods and help free them from the burden of debt caused by reliance on unsustainable methods of farming.I would really like to get the local school involved at some point and try to educate the youngsters, giving them a realistic chance of making a living without leaving for the cities. This has become a real problem recently and this year my wife tells me there are not enough workers for the rice planting with outside labourers coming in. Usually everyone in the village helps each other out, trading a days labour or rice from the future harvest.

Growing monocultures is something that I am trying to move the family away from as disease or lack of water etc. can wipe out a crop and that means zero income.

I feel that co-operatives are the way forward and think that it would be possible, the locals just need a bit of leadership. If they can be shown that by pooling resources and labour profits can be increased I think many villagers would sign up.One of the main problems they face is being unable to raise the capital for basic infrastructure such as irrigation systems, digging ponds, fencing to keep out cattle and so on. 

At the local market in town I originally asumed the stallholders were all farmers but have since found out they buy the produce from trucks that come down from Chiang Rai who are middlemen that buy from hill tribe farmers and Burmese traders up in Mae Sai. An aunt has a stall here but she sells herbs and plants that she collects from the mountain so she is interested in buying any produce we can supply.

Oh well hopefully brighter times lay ahead!!

cheers for now J

[Jungian]

I am under the impression that a non-Thai can not do a job that a Thai can do in general thus keeping more employment opportunities opened for the citizens of this country, the same rule applies in Canada.

[bina]

yes, but in this case the original discussion wasnt really about farm labourers as much as farm owners re: large corporations that are techno-agriculture companies that then employ thais , i guess according to the thai equation; however those that profit are the foreign (and higher up thai) owners...

somehow i dont think that joe smith hoeing a row of tomatoes in his backyard in korat is the guy that is targeted; these conversations always get back to: if i am hammering a nail in my own house, is that work?

oth, u never know... i suppose that the situation could end up like here: we are allowed up to 2-3 dogs. beyond that , it is called a kennel and therefore a business (kibbutz ruling). it doesnt matter that they are all spayed/neutered mixed mutts. if u all get my point?

people call it xenophobia but most countries protect certain occupations for their 'own' even if their 'own' are incapable. case in point is my country now limiting the amount of thais to come and work in asian restaraunts. the point is to train israelis to use a wok and become asian food cooks. easier said then done. and ever since, the powers that be have extended the deadlines and let restaurant owners apply for thai workers to cook cause basically no matter what the incentive, most israelis just dont want to stand in front of a wok all day and stir fry. or they came to work, stayed a week to get the work office slip proving they came to work, didnt make it, therefore can receive unemployment again.

bina

israel

[allcladrad]

It would appear that which ever way you went you would be illegal. Unless you had a work permit, which would be doubtful as farming might be on the list of jobs that foreigners can't get a permit for.

So helping your wife/girlfriend could be construed as working.

If the economy worsens the chances of some one complaining heighten. If they start asking about your farming activities will they then ask about the property ownership?

[bina]

farming IS on the no work for a farang list; but so are most occupations; read the initial news articles at the beginning of the thread...

and yes of course they ask about property ownership, its discussed ad nauseaum in the housing forum re: rules and regs for farangs' ownership/non ownership of property and houses. u cannot own land. period.

but yes, if your neighbhors are really po'd at u they can report a farang harvesting his wife's rice; but i dont think we've had any complaints on this forum about THAT yet.

bina

israel

[RedBullHorn]

In this village where i live, villagers proudly display maize on decorated parade pickups during OTOP fair....

It all start 10 years ago when a hand full of people started to do maize farming, as years goes by this group of maize farmers grew to about 60 "members", helping each other as a 60 plus strong group to harvest crop ranging from 8 rai to 30 rai each individual. Then one farmer took a loan from Sahakorn and bought a ORANGE colour Kubota 4 x 4 tractor...fitted it with FM radio and speakers! and became the center attraction and optima desire of most farmers in the group as a "must have in my life" thing. So they up their steaks and do bigger and more rai to profit more and enable them to own one and to paid the bank loan.

Water is not an issue to their crop and the broker gratefully hand out seeds and Urea on credit first and minus the cost from the profit after. Then someone install a roller belt lift with a 3hp motor and made life more easier....They used to carry the sacks and ran up the plank to unload in the trailers, now it's just unload on to the roller belt and motor deliver right up to the trailer, the lift owner profit 30 baht/ton and i profit 2500 baht/year as contract to use electricity from my house(nearest) to power the motor. Statistic show maize farming is bringing 10 mil baht into the village annually, and now there are 35 proud owners of Kubota and Yanma 4 x 4 Tractors, all with FM radio and some with CD player installed too ...Prosperity...

THEN.....came the bad news!!!

Bugs' larvae had become a huge problem to their crops....broker reported that a handful of companys he deliver to had gone burst. To fix bugs worms problem, either they stop farming maize for 4 years to get rid of bugs or down size their plantation by half. Broker's not willing to risk handing out seeds and Urea on full credit anymore for fear of crop losses.....And suddenly there has been lots of enquiries about my catfish farming income potential lately and possible agri to aquaculture switch ......and the headache of all 35 debtors......

[Hunkpati]

And there are so many legal ways around this problem if you actually want to farm here. Seems they only give you the negative spin in the media but as for high tech farming and pharmaceutical crop farming the laws are a lot different because there is a lot of investment up front and a lot of money to be spread around afterward. There are also a lot of non-Thais involved in agricultural education that do field work, no pun intended.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Hunkpati