Caught Teaching On Retirement Visa

[thaicbr]

Well these days you can get a work permit on a 'non O retirement visa' so not taking the piss really. Also it was the schools job to get the bloody work permit in the 1st place. Why is it that the people at the school dont get done as well.

I waited over a year to get my work permit . cos i got lots of <deleted> and bullshit from the admin.

Edited July 14, 2009 by thaicbr

[ozzieovaseas]

Glad to see that this was resolved with little fuss, given that those who were retired probably did not "need" the income to survive as such, but felt a need to contribute to Thai society whilest having something to do in their spare time.

There does seem to be a pattern emerging though..coincidentally in these tough times the enforcing of some laws are being reguritated to generate more income..just one example is fines for not stopping at pedestrian crossings and even a fine for jaywalking being looked at again..Just another example of those at the top directing the foot soldiers to "earn" more income..

Same thing happens in australia where traffic police are given a "quota" of speeding tickets and other misdemeanours that they have to achieve within a period of time..all well known but quickly explained as "benchmark procedures towards traffic safety" by the establishment...yeh right.

It seems the best thing a farang can do in LOS is sit around spending your money drinking beer and being the farang ke-nok that we are so often called.

Looking at the long list of jobs that farangs are prohibited to do, it seems our work is CERTAINLY not wanted here..

Sadly it makes me wonder at times if our prolonged prescence here would be tolerated if we were actually participating in Thai society and living on thai generated income alone.

Just lucky for some there are no such huge restrictions on foriegn nationalities working and setting up businesses (restaurants ect) in OUR countries.

[beano2274]

If the people in power want to crackdown on things, then start with the agencies who promise teachers jobs at schools, but do not get them the required visas or even a work permit, these teachers are given a one years contract, but without all the proper documentation they could be removed from their jobs at anytime.

Lucky for those concerned that nothing much happened, but it's going to be hard to get another job at the moment. If they were part time then maybe they have another source of income, or can even get day work somewhere else. I know a company looking in Bangkok for teachers 3 days a week (a company with a name linked to dark chocolate and Birmingham in the UK), that's a hint as I think I am not allowed to advertise on this site.

[Scott]

It is quite sad for individuals who get caught up in these situations. Many people on a marriage visa need to work to support the family. It's also easy to fault the gov't on these issues, but we must remember that laws are being broken and people will be held accountable. Should employers be held responsible? Maybe. Will employees be held responsible? For sure.

Let's try to keep the thread on topic. Are there a lot of people on retirement visas working? Are there a lot on marriage visas working without Work Permits? Perhaps these are people that for a variety of reasons can't get a WP. I've had plenty of applicants on marriage visas who don't have a degree and can't get a WP (in this area)--of course they are settled in this area and can't easily move.

[Mario2008]

Well these days you can get a work permit on a 'non O retirement visa' so not taking the piss really. Also it was the schools job to get the bloody work permit in the 1st place. Why is it that the people at the school dont get done as well.

I waited over a year to get my work permit . cos i got lots of <deleted> and bullshit from the admin.

Are you sure you can get a work permit on a retirement visa? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of 'retirement', or am I missing something somewhere?

Incidentally, I hope you don't teach your pupils to speak/write/spell the way you do.

Sunbelt reported succes last year in getting a WP for someone on a retirement extension, in Bangkok. It seems to depend on your local labour office if they will allow it or not.

[beano2274]

It is quite sad for individuals who get caught up in these situations. Many people on a marriage visa need to work to support the family. It's also easy to fault to the gov't on these issues, but we must remember that laws are being broken and people will be held accountable. Should employers be held responsible? Maybe. Will employees be held responsible? For sure.

Let's try to keep the thread on topic. Are there a lot of people on retirement visas working? Are there a lot on marriage visas working without Work Permits? Perhaps these are people that for a variety of reasons can't get a WP. I've had plenty of applicants on marriage visas who don't have a degree and can't get a WP (in this area)--of course they are settled in this area and can't easily move.

As previously stated I work for an English company, and when I am free I use the time to teach locally, I have a Non Immigrant O visa but no WP, as it's part time only. I pay my taxes to the Government for the work I do part time here.

Maybe the Government needs to bring in a law about part timers, giving them the chance to have a WP if the school or establishment can prove the requirement for a part time rather than a full time teacher. This would benefit the Government (Taxes paid by the individuals), and also the schools as they can employ part time teachers legally.

[lopburi3]

Work permit is not normally issued on a retirement extension of stay. As with everything there is the occasional exception. I have not seen any recent reports of new applications being accepted.

[Mario2008]

It is quite sad for individuals who get caught up in these situations. Many people on a marriage visa need to work to support the family. It's also easy to fault to the gov't on these issues, but we must remember that laws are being broken and people will be held accountable. Should employers be held responsible? Maybe. Will employees be held responsible? For sure.

Let's try to keep the thread on topic. Are there a lot of people on retirement visas working? Are there a lot on marriage visas working without Work Permits? Perhaps these are people that for a variety of reasons can't get a WP. I've had plenty of applicants on marriage visas who don't have a degree and can't get a WP (in this area)--of course they are settled in this area and can't easily move.

As previously stated I work for an English company, and when I am free I use the time to teach locally, I have a Non Immigrant O visa but no WP, as it's part time only. I pay my taxes to the Government for the work I do part time here.

Maybe the Government needs to bring in a law about part timers, giving them the chance to have a WP if the school or establishment can prove the requirement for a part time rather than a full time teacher. This would benefit the Government (Taxes paid by the individuals), and also the schools as they can employ part time teachers legally.

Why wouldn't some one who is part-time teaching be able to get a WP?

I'm surprised as i know of no such rule. If you look at volunteers for example, they can get a WP for only 4 hours a week.

[beano2274]

A WP is for full time employment.

Remember there are certain other rules, like the minimum wage for a foreigner, I think it's around 30,000 for a Native speaker.

Also because of the new rules about free education, schools are losing money, so getting part timers is also sometimes a cheaper option.

If they introduced part time WP's it would be great, as there are many part timers out there.

If I was married and had a non immigrant O visa, but only worked part time, and the school gave me a part time WP, I would still have to show a salary of 40,000Baht per month at Immigration. To get that kind of money the school would be better off giving me full time, but if I could prove that all my part time jobs could net me more than 40,000 baht per month then Immigration should be satisfied.

[mizzi39]

PERHAPS, next time Dimitri, they might like to get work permits and do it the correct way, that way they won't run the risk of losing everything again. Honestly, is it worth it?

I agree. I'm not a teacher so don't know much about the general procedures but I'm not sure what these people are supposed to do if they gain employment at a school but the school then doesn't organise their work permits. Leave? The teacher in the group that I know is genuinely attached to his class and didn't want to change jobs and start all over again at another school. Looks like he'll have to now though.

YES! Any responsible program will put the proper paperwork together, so things run smoothly at both immigration and the labor office. I work with a teacher who has been teaching at my school for the past 6 years on an O visa, and he has never had a problem getting his work permit renewed. Like i stated in another post, there are to many shoddy schools here. It really is the responsibility of the foreigner seeking employment to make sure that his "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed.

Edited July 15, 2009 by mizzi39

[Mario2008]

A WP is for full time employment.

Remember there are certain other rules, like the minimum wage for a foreigner, I think it's around 30,000 for a Native speaker.

Also because of the new rules about free education, schools are losing money, so getting part timers is also sometimes a cheaper option.

If they introduced part time WP's it would be great, as there are many part timers out there.

If I was married and had a non immigrant O visa, but only worked part time, and the school gave me a part time WP, I would still have to show a salary of 40,000Baht per month at Immigration. To get that kind of money the school would be better off giving me full time, but if I could prove that all my part time jobs could net me more than 40,000 baht per month then Immigration should be satisfied.

There is a minimum income requirement, which for people of most western countries is 50,000 a month, but that is only if you apply for an extension of stay based on employment for a company and has nothing to do with getting a WP. It is an immigration rule, not a labour office rule.

If you apply for an extension of stay on other grounds, you will need to show the income for that requirement. For foreign man marreid to a Thai national that would be 40,000, but if on an extension of stay based on teaching there is no minimum income requirement.

[Scott]

Let's keep the discussion civil, otherwise posts will have to be deleted and warnings issued. People--and teachers are people--do make spelling, grammar and factual errors. Some people are also not as adept on the keyboard as others.

[beano2274]

Okay so for a company 50,000 baht.

So an agent that goes to a school is a company, they get the teacher a work permit through the school, the teacher gets paid 35,000 baht the agent 15,000 baht from the school.

So technically the teacher is illegally employed as he is under the 50,000 baht limit as a company employee, or the Agent is illegally gaining money from the school, as the school employs the Teacher (WP), or the school is at fault for employing a Teacher under false pretenses (as they pay an agent for services, and the teacher is really not their teacher but the agents' teacher).

This is a daily occurrence in Thailand, I think the best way forward for everyone is get rid of the agents.

Reminds me of the Carlos Tevez affair at West Ham.

[Loaded]

Remember there are certain other rules, like the minimum wage for a foreigner, I think it's around 30,000 for a Native speaker.

Teachers are exempt I believe from this and there is no minimum income requirement. However, if you have an O based on marriage to a Thai, you'll need to satisfy the income requirement but you won't if you are on a B.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Loaded

[venturalaw]

PERHAPS, next time Dimitri, they might like to get work permits and do it the correct way, that way they won't run the risk of losing everything again. Honestly, is it worth it?

I agree. I'm not a teacher so don't know much about the general procedures but I'm not sure what these people are supposed to do if they gain employment at a school but the school then doesn't organise their work permits. Leave? The teacher in the group that I know is genuinely attached to his class and didn't want to change jobs and start all over again at another school. Looks like he'll have to now though.

YES! Any responsible program will put the proper paperwork together, so things run smoothly at both immigration and the labor office. I work with a teacher who has been teaching at my school for the past 6 years on an O visa, and he has never had a problem getting his work permit renewed. Like i stated in another post, there are to many shoddy schools here. It really is the responsibility of the foreigner seeking employment to make sure that his "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed.

Exactly true since the foreigner will be paying the ultimate price if violations are found to have occurred. Furthermore, a WP is required for volunteer work - ie if one is on a retirement visa and wishes to contribute to Thai society. It's counterproductive and negatively impacts Thailand because many would participate in volunteer work but for the WP requirement. However, I'm a big believer that if you don't want to get with the program (follow the laws to the letter no matter how backwards they may seem) then leave the country. Those who fail to abide by the laws negatively impact the rest of us. I feel sorry for those who were caught, but let that be a lesson for all of us. Comply with the laws of the land and you greatly reduce (not eliminate) the potential for problems.

Edited July 15, 2009 by venturalaw

[jfchandler]

A WP is for full time employment.

As suggested above, I believe that is not correct. The best example is people wanting to volunteer a few hours per week being required, by the law, to have a work permit. And obviously, a volunteer, by definition, isn't earning any salary at all.

I've always understood that here, at least according to the letter of the law, anyone doing work here in Thailand is supposed to have a Thai work permit, full-time, part-time, or volunteer.

(To avoid derailing this thread and making everyone crazy, let's agree to leave out the examples of people working here in LOS for companies based and doing business outside Thailand...)

[venturalaw]

A WP is for full time employment.

As suggested above, I believe that is not correct. The best example is people wanting to volunteer a few hours per week being required, by the law, to have a work permit. And obviously, a volunteer, by definition, isn't earning any salary at all.

I've always understood that here, at least according to the letter of the law, anyone doing work here in Thailand is supposed to have a Thai work permit, full-time, part-time, or volunteer.

(To avoid derailing this thread and making everyone crazy, let's agree to leave out the examples of people working here in LOS for companies based and doing business outside Thailand...)

One of the very few exceptions (if not the only exception) to the WP requirement is for those working for the Tourist Police. Although volunteer work requires a WP, since the volunteer is actually working in a Thai governmental position, and therefore the government knows that you are working, the WP requirement is waived.

[jfchandler]

Maybe what would be helpful, given the subject of this thread, is for someone with good knowledge on the subject to opine on the following:

If you're a teacher and taking a new job at a school, given the law, what's a reasonable period to wait (post your first day of teaching) to expect to have received a valid work permit?

I'm assuming the law makes no provision (grace period) for the time a school needs to go thru all the necessary paperwork. And of course I'd assume the school wouldn't want to start that whole process until they're sure someone really is going to be working for them (i.e., has showed up and started teaching).

And, what if anything can a teacher do, in beginning a job or signing a contract, to protect themself against an employer who promises a work permit (as I gather sometimes happens) but then drags out the process and delays and ultimately does nothing???

[TerryLH]

"One of the very few exceptions (if not the only exception) to the WP requirement is for those working for the Tourist Police. Although volunteer work requires a WP, since the volunteer is actually working in a Thai governmental position, and therefore the government knows that you are working, the WP requirement is waived."

I suspect it's not really waived, but rather that someone in the police dept has simply said, "You work for us, no WP needed." (It's too much paperwork, don't worry about it.)

I used to work with two guys who were splitting one full time job. They each worked 10 hours a week. Both had WP's.

[mizzi39]

Maybe what would be helpful, given the subject of this thread, is for someone with good knowledge on the subject to opine on the following:

If you're a teacher and taking a new job at a school, given the law, what's a reasonable period to wait (post your first day of teaching) to expect to have received a valid work permit?

I'm assuming the law makes no provision (grace period) for the time a school needs to go thru all the necessary paperwork. And of course I'd assume the school wouldn't want to start that whole process until they're sure someone really is going to be working for them (i.e., has showed up and started teaching).

And, what if anything can a teacher do, in beginning a job or signing a contract, to protect themself against an employer who promises a work permit (as I gather sometimes happens) but then drags out the process and delays and ultimately does nothing???

I have had a valid work permit for the past two years now, so I will speak from my own experience. I signed my contract, took it to immigration (in BKK), and received my non B visa valid for 3 months. When I got back to Issan I took my PP with my fresh stamp to the labor office and received my WP that very day also good for 3 months. Before the 3 month expiration, I went to my provincial immigration office and got my 1 year extention. Upon leaving Immigration, I drove to the labor office and got my WP extented for 1 year (same day).

The WP expires on the same day as your Non B and contract, so there is no waiting period. Before your old contract expires, you should be presented with a new one, so nothing expires. Immigration renews your visa for another year, and your WP is stamped for another year.

1.signed contract

2. immigration

3. labor office for WP

All done in 1 day!

Good programs know exactly how this process works, because it is the same process for all contracted employees.

[Mario2008]

Agree, for a teacher a WP is very easy to get and can be indeed done within a day. Especialy when there are already other foreigners working there.

[beano2274]

Used to do in a day as well at Suan Phlu then Labour office on Wongsawang, not hard if you get there early and have all the paperwork in order.

[remil]

I never understood this problem and it is the same all over the world. Why is it the employee gets all the problems when its the employer that is hiring without giving the proper documentation. The falangs go to jail when it was probably the person that hired them that said he would nt give them the work permit. Even if these guys agreed to working without the work permit there should be some blame on the employer.

Ive recently been employed for the past 5 months and was promised a work permit I never got it so I just recently resigned. But of course it would of been my fault right? baffles me

[PeaceBlondie]

Let's keep this focused on teaching in Thailand, please. Thanks.

[neverdie]

Let's keep the discussion civil, otherwise posts will have to be deleted and warnings issued. People--and teachers are people--do make spelling, grammar and factual errors. Some people are also not as adept on the keyboard as others.

Scott, I agree with everything you say, however, some people just can't help themselves and they want to have a chop at others over nothing....its right through the forum. If someone has nothing decent to add they jump in with the old spelling or gramma mistake rubbish. My only surprise is that thaicbr bit, as he knows better.

On the issue & I wouldnt know because I'm not a teacher, nor desire to be one, but if I was I would really be chasing one of those more professional organsiations in order to find work because lets face it, this is hardly a high paying position and really not worth dramas like Dimitris friends went thru. Goodluck to anyone who is in that situation.

[beano2274]

Many teachers are promised the work permit, but schools are reluctant to do all the paperwork, it is a lot of stuff that is required. Maybe the government should make it easier for the schools to employ us.

The school in question will be advertising on ajarn.com or ajarnjobspace.com soon, unless they used an Agent, if they use an Agent then that is the person who should be getting all the crap.

Teachers take note, get everything in writing, when it does go tits up, and it will, then at least you have something to use to protect yourself from a hefty fine or deportation.

[beano2274]

Maybe the teachers are still working at the School in question, as maybe the school will now do the WP's for these teachers, hope so.

[mizzi39]

Many teachers are promised the work permit, but schools are reluctant to do all the paperwork, it is a lot of stuff that is required. Maybe the government should make it easier for the schools to employ us.

The school in question will be advertising on ajarn.com or ajarnjobspace.com soon, unless they used an Agent, if they use an Agent then that is the person who should be getting all the crap.

Teachers take note, get everything in writing, when it does go tits up, and it will, then at least you have something to use to protect yourself from a hefty fine or deportation.

Most of these "agencies" are only concerned with making a baht, and turning over as many teachers as they can. Once you go legit you are now faced with answering to immigration and the labor office. To much bull <deleted> for a mom and pop operation.

[Scott]

Let's remember the rules are enforced differently in different areas. In our area, once the visa is issued, the WP takes up to 3 months. We have to apply for a TL(or waiver) before they will issue the WP. This takes time--and time is important because the non-immigrant visa will expire.

Also, some schools simply don't have the paperwork necessary to process the work permit. I am aware of a school which was sold to another party. The new owner hasn't been given the registration papers and thus can't make the application for the WP. The existing school has been around for a while and was properly registered. The new owner has been in the business for quite a while and knows the procedure. Attorneys are working on it. But still no papers. Maybe not enough tea money, I don't know. But remember a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

This is Thailand and things work differently.

[Mario2008]

As far as I know getting the wiver takes about 2 to 3 weeks, just as it took in my case.

But interesting Scott, I understand that in your area the labour office doesn't issue a Wp without a teachers license. That is the first time I hear of this. So far I only heard of some immigraiton offices refusing an extension of stay without a TL.