Continuing To Make Every Possible Mistake.

[mca]

I fully understand Texpat's stance as I myself have seen countless westerners being milked like a prize cow by some of the most immoral folks I've ever come across but of course there are various levels of what "giving" entails.

Until she died my dad always topped my nan's (his mother in law) meager state pension up every week to help out with the bills. Perfectly normal behavior where I come from.

I can't see any problem with that here if the inlaws are rice farmers struggling to make a living and your wife doesn't work. A few (and i do mean a few) 1000baht a month isn't so bad.

But a lot of westerners haven't the balls to know when to say no. Maybe they're scared the wife will give them shit if they don't bail her pissed up brother out of the police station or buy uncle a motorcycle.

What's their wife going to do if they won't buy her folks a new house? Divorce them? If she knows she's onto a good steady thing she'll keep quiet when the request is met with "No"

If she continues to make a fuss then it's time to question the relationship anyhow. Loving husband or mobile ATM?

Unfortunately a lot of westerners in Isaan married a woman who the were about as compatible with as a housebrick is to a helicopter. Talk about eyes wide shut.

At the risk of a bit of crudity "P@ssy'll draw you more than gunpowder will blow you."

[ozzieovaseas]

For me giving some money away is fine if I approve of the end use. Exactly that, and only that.

I happily will donate to a charity of which I approve, but damned if I'll give it out indiscriminately.

Last year I had been giving my wife month each month to handle all of our expenses with the excess being left for her to use as she saw fit. It worked out fairly well, but unfortunately sometimes that was not as I saw fit. For example, it drove me nuts to see her buying a 300 baht phone card every other day so she could yap endlessly with her mother. Or even worse, when she without hesitation returned a one ring phone signal from a friend so we would be paying for the phone call. I go ballistic when that happens. It isn't the small amount which is important (what the hel_l is a few baht?) it is the principle. Undoubtedly my past experiences with my ex-wife has now left me financially super-sensitive but I can't help that.

Since we now are saving every satang for our new land and future house, I've decided pay for everything. I often give my wife a 500 or 1000 note for "mad money" but not when her son was nearby and I suspected some it may be going to the money sucker. Doling out the money as needed has worked for me, but I know my wife isn't thrilled about it. She has a problem saying NO to anybody, being a very giving person by nature. Don't get me wrong, she's great overall but she is not exempt from money management issues as most of us have experienced. I happily add I am the chief beneficiary of her giving ways. And when I croak (probably not many years from now), she'll be the only beneficiary and I feel good about leaving her with what I can.

Can't decide if I am selfish, petty and controlling, or principled and prudent.

Probably a little all of the above. Actually, that is not relevant because I am who I am, complete with imperfections. After regretting much of my past, I now see the importance in being who you are, living life in accordance, and otherwise letting the chips fall where they may.

I think what gets most westerners down in a thai relationship where the thai family are poor,is the constant giving.Back home where we've been most of our lives this concept is alien because our wives/girl friends have a job,decent money and respective families have also,and if they dont they have a generous welfare state.Then one day you hit thailand meet the girl of your dreams and find out she has no money,no employment future and her family etc are piss poor too.The next thing you know you begin to pay for every little problem,at first you think ok,i have the means to do so and i like to help out,but what you dont realise is "its never going to stop" unless you start saying no.Giving money can be habit forming and difficult to stop until one day you sit down and add up all the giving you've done over the years(checked to see how your bank balance has diminished) and think"bloody hel_l"this has got to stop,but how can you,the family have come to expect support for all sorts of things and now you are going to have to pull the rug from under their feet,everyone begins to lose face especially your girlfriend,the money dries up,the phone stops ringing,someone moves out,and its all over,minus a couple of million baht of your own money...............welcome to thailand.

Hey Samui, must say you are a really decent guy. I can tell this by reading a lot of your posts and the fact that you always give out good advice and rarely ever bag on anyone..Its good of you to share the real picture and i hope in your case all those issues mend themselves in time...at least your perception of them.

One thing though,at least you can hold your head high and see that you have made a change and enriched a few peoples lives who are obviously all the more better for your being around.

In any case they have certainly had a far better quality of life in your company than had they shacked up with some bum..be that thai or farang...and after all how many can say this in the west?

Im sure a lot of us can compare the traits of our exes back home...words that come to mind..manipulating,self centred b!tches who are never satified,no matter what you do..and basically make our lives a living hel_l until which time they get a divorce thats often ridiculously in their favour..thats very much!!

A lot of smar8t ars8es on T.V are quick to bag out others and call them silly for their choices,thinking they are smart but its these guys you really have to feel sorry for...while they are bagging you out the point of the advice is totally lost on them and more likely than not they are next runners who will fall even harder in the futrure

SO..In the words of KENNY (SOUTHPARK!!)...Ive just learnt something today..

We're all in LOS having a reasonably good life that we would probably be hard pressed to have back home, so lets listen to each others stories with appreciation...as these lessons are invaluable to all us guys who have it ahead of us.

good luck old mate!

[PatinBKk]

What is wrong with some of the family working???....what about their land, why did you have to buy MORE land...if I was hard up, I would sell something, I wouldnt go cap in hand to anyone...talk about SAVING FACE...rubbish when it comes to money...anyone giving an 'allowance' or 'taking care' is an outright pleb....but I suppose if you cant get a women at home and you like a girl that is a lot younger than you then I suppose you have to pay one way or another....didnt you know that Thai culture the women predominatly contribute....just shows how the **** is being taken out of you...goood luck its your dosh

[PatinBKk]

I agree with Nick and some of the others. The allowance is the best way. I've given my wife an allowance for the past 6 years that we've been together. She's very protective of it and uses it to work on our house, add to the restaurant, buy more land and/or make more money. It's not a lot; but it's enough that she can use to do something with. She's given some to her mother and one of her sister's, but just a little. I'm the softy in our family. Don't let the actions of one member of the family taint your feelings about the rest. Give your wife a set amount and let her be the one to decide if she can afford to give and how much. My wife's favorite saying it "Up to her/him", they're not her responsibility.

allowance...what the **** is that all about.....is that the amount you agreed on when you rescued her from a bar somewhere....****....why give money every month...that is the start of a slippery slope...

I have to say that you are 100% offensive and would say more in person. I didn't rescue my wife from a bar, or a club or any other place of the sort. As for allowance, it's a word... what we have is a marraige and a husband provides for his wife. As for my wife, I provide her a portion of my income for her to live on, invest, use or save as she sees fit. So far, she's built a shoe store, a convenience store, a restaurant, sublet, the shoe store, closed the convenience store, bought land, built a newer bigger and nicer restaurant, built a nice home, bought a new truck, bought more land and started adding hotel rooms behind the restaurant. She has occasionally loaned or given her sister and mother money, but very frugally. She's very open with our account book and shows me where every penny went when I get home. She's anxious to show me, I don't demand it. After 6 years of marraige with her; I wouldn't call it a "start of a slippery slope". I'm 47 and she's 43, so I don't quite worry about a young stud whisking her away for a life of sexual and druken bliss.

I'm afraid what you have suffered is a pitiful case of "stroke of dumb@$$". If someone is married and wishes to support their spouse; it most often requires a financial responsibility; no matter where you come from. Try marrying another nationality and not supporting her and see how long it will last; it won't. You have to build trust into a relationship, a trust that goes both ways. Allowing her the ability to control her finances can enrich you both or it can minimize your losses; it's a safer alternative to blindly opening the piggy bank and throwing money at the family and friends. Trust your wife to manage money, and let her decide which family members are worth the effort.

5 years and counting buddy...my wife works for her money,....she is proud and really does care about saving face......working upto the day befor baby was born....we share the responsibilities....not one sided old boy.....how many times I have heard from other guys that sis needs a new car....the land down the road is cheap....well save up and pay for it, same as anybody else, dont go scrounging, because that is what it is and only a fool is sucked in

[loong]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in helping out the family - within reason. Buying a pick up , spending millions on a house, giving money every month so the in-laws can lounge around or get drunk all/every day is not within reason.

Most people are able to earn maybe 4,000 Baht per month, so it's a bit difficult for them to save up for anything. If they are decent hardworking people, why not help out a bit? Just don't allow it to escalate.

My gf's Father worked hard and did his best to provide for his family, he helped my gf's sister build a house using basically all his wages for the last 2 years. He's not selfish or greedy and now his health doesn't really permit him to work. He has now retired, no pension and is growing vegetables etc as a means to eat and maybe sell some.

Since he has stopped work, I've been giving some cash every week, otherwise he would have nothing.

So, am I a mug? I don't think so.

Every case is different and should be considered on its own merits.

[bergen]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in helping out the family - within reason. Buying a pick up , spending millions on a house, giving money every month so the in-laws can lounge around or get drunk all/every day is not within reason.

Most people are able to earn maybe 4,000 Baht per month, so it's a bit difficult for them to save up for anything. If they are decent hardworking people, why not help out a bit? Just don't allow it to escalate.

My gf's Father worked hard and did his best to provide for his family, he helped my gf's sister build a house using basically all his wages for the last 2 years. He's not selfish or greedy and now his health doesn't really permit him to work. He has now retired, no pension and is growing vegetables etc as a means to eat and maybe sell some.

Since he has stopped work, I've been giving some cash every week, otherwise he would have nothing.

So, am I a mug? I don't think so.

Every case is different and should be considered on its own merits.

Well said!

[beerchang]

Well continuing my saga of adventure and mishap in the Land of Smiles:

First idiotically marrying a bargirl, later divorsed... what a mess.

Then my good girl 2nd Thai wife came to the USA and has done well (citizen, Community College etc.) I was convinced that as the folks in Yasothon are my "family" it was a humanitarian ideal to support them and invest and help out. Nice thought.....

Well after buying them more land, paying off the mortgage on Mae's house, supporting and putting in special schools 4 of my 2 sister-in law' s children (who of course live with their Granmother as the sisters are too busy to be raising children), buying cattle and supporting the sister-in-law who was my wife's closest ally every month so she could come home from Bangkok and work the cattle and rice field well--- you geussed it: she got a Thai boyfriend and stole all the money. This class act stole her brother's money for the tractor, my land payments and the funds I had sent her to put her in hair cutting (cosmetology?) school. Walked with all the cash and when asked why: "I have a boyfriend" Nice huh? Forget the family, forget the plans, forget you're own children and parents, take the cash and run with the Thai pimp daddy. Oh I almost forgot: the other sister convinced me to invest in her Bangkok restaurant. Amusingly the payments for the loan have not been forthcoming. Whodothunkit?

What kind of people do this? I understand that poverty and ignorance make honor a meaningless exercise and that ultimately I am seen as a non-human ATM. Thai Rak Thai and take all you can from the stupid Farang... but to steal your children's future and burn you mother and siblings. I'm pretty fed up with Siam. Apparently they smile to cover their secretive coveteness and just don't have the basic brain power to comprehend planning for a better future or acting honorably so as to build and model character. I suppose that's the key: a characterless culture with a take on Buddhism that is basicly Tam Boon for more cash. "Oh Lord Buddha give me lottery numbers."

Anyway I told the family: no more money. Farang ATM closed, out of order, forget the gravy train, sis blew it and it's over.

Now I feel in my gullible Farang heart that I can't leave Mae satangless. Yeah I feel guilty and continue to want to help-- pitiful American Farang that I am.

At least this family produced one fine little human and she is my wife and now a US citizen. She is of course shaken by her sister's evil actions but Thai style immediately wants to forgive her and gloss over the truth. That's Thailand: smile and don't think and everything is JUST FINE! My Pen Rai!

BULL

And...? Nice rant though, hope you feel better dude . This is going to sound like i'm calling you stupid. For that I apologize in advance. But... big money, possibly insecure, definately stupid farangs like to show off their wealth with the 'see how much money I have to give/lend away' and after they've given it are distraught with what the people they gave it to do with it. I say "Stop bloody showing off and get with the program". 7 years ago a cousin of my wife 'borrowed' 15,000 of me bahts for one month. Never repaid to this day. Distant relatives got wind of the new farang in town (about 5 days after the 15000 'loan') and turned up 'en masse' to borrow 100,000 bht. I said, "No problem. Go get the 15,000 and i'll only have to actually 'give' 85,000. Didn't go down too well but it's all over now. DIDN'T show off my 'relative' wealth and DIDN'T act stupid. There's one born every minute! (apologies apologies to the sensitive ones)

P.S you can have a good laugh at me for losing 15,000 bht, I don't mind!

[imaneggspurt]

Don't start in the first place. When you try to apply your western morals and generosity and lifestyle to their predicament, you'll be milked, drained, sucked dry and won't even hear a thank-you from them.

Sure they'll smile and serve you a cold beer when you visit (assuming you buy it) but you're not doing anyone any favors. You'll only create a few dependents for yourself. Look how Thais treat each other and gauge appropriate response based on that as a baseline. Don't let foreign concepts like charity or fairness and equity cloud your thinking.

If the limits of your generosity have no boundaries, the circle of groupies will expand to include neighbors, distant cousins, acquaintances ...

My advice is: don't ever start -- ever.

Im warming to you texpat,...spot on here buddy,.

[zzaa09]

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, double shame on me. Fool me thrice.....mai phen lai.

[leemo]

You've got it all wrong.

Give your wife a fixed monthly allowance within reason. Let her do with it whatever she wants, but keep yourself out of family matters completely. If it's the wife's money they usually have more respect for it!

Sound advice, though it shrieks the truth about Thai respect for farang sponsors and their funds.

[zzaa09]

I'd be more than curious to wonder what the situation for this gent would be if he'd chosen to settle down here in the LOS, perhaps near the alledged family, instead of sweeping his Thai bride off the the States......would things be different if they were living here?

[leemo]

What is wrong with some of the family working???....what about their land, why did you have to buy MORE land...if I was hard up, I would sell something, I wouldnt go cap in hand to anyone...talk about SAVING FACE...rubbish when it comes to money...anyone giving an 'allowance' or 'taking care' is an outright pleb....but I suppose if you cant get a women at home and you like a girl that is a lot younger than you then I suppose you have to pay one way or another....didnt you know that Thai culture the women predominatly contribute....just shows how the **** is being taken out of you...goood luck its your dosh

You are right and it is of course his money to do with as he pleases. Fair argument too, but you seem to have missed or ignored the importance of perception, and especially the power of perception to Thais.

As an example, ours is joint money under my control. No allowance to but also no accounting by wifey, but it's always there within reason for whatever we want. When it comes to family assistance, however, funds are without exception given by her as her money, or transferred from her account.

This has kept requests down to a minimum and demands at zero, and to be absolutely honest, her mother gives her a good tongue wag every month when we send over the extravagance of a polystyrene box filled with fresh prawns and plamuech - which they thoroughly enjoy and look forward to but could as easily live without.

[SIAMBULL]

Very different certainly. Although I believe the thieving sister would not have fallen, in abject ignorance and self esteemless neediness, to the influence of a thieving boyfriend and the temptations of card playing. I do know the sister and while she cannot be trusted to use what little brains Buddha has bestowed, I do believe that were my wife and I with her she cold have resisted the call to corruption. Perhaps....

I think the idea that sis would someday have a visa to America and/or we would retire to Isaan and all live happily ever after, just could not inspire her from such a great distance, adequitely, to stop temptation/corruption/theivery from entering her heart. Were myself and my now American educated wife there, I think sis would have done better and perhaps even been inspired to put her life together and maybe even find a 'respectable' boyfriend rather than the scum she passively allows into her life.

She is now reportedly surprised that the money has stopped flowing from America and low and behold has expressed, from her current situation in Bangkok, CONCERN FOR HER CHILDREN!!!?! Ain't that special......

BULL

[bergen]

Since my wife has built a business on her land with "our" money,

she now gives me allowance..............................though within reason

[Gary A]

Allowance? I wouldn't like to refer to it as an allowance. My wife always hated to ask me for money. After a couple months living upcountry and getting a feel for the cost of living, I asked my wife to come up with a monthly budget for household expenses. She came up with a figure of 20,000 baht. I told her I would give her 25,000 per month and whatever she had left was her money to do with whatever she wanted. I'm sure she was putting a minimum of 5,000 baht per month into her savings account. She is responsible for paying for everything including my Internet, UBC TV, electricity, water, cigarettes and although it wasn't mentioned, even buying my clothes. It works well for us. I expect fruit and other good food to be on hand all the time. I really don't care what she does with whatever is left and I DON'T ask her. I pay the insurance premiums and any big ticket items if/when I want something.

I don't feel it is a good idea to keep a woman broke and totally dependent on her husband. She needs to have responsibilities.

[Chewbacka]

Tell me where the sense is in letting your girlfriend / wife (and thus in-laws) getting a true sense of how much money you have anyway?

That's where the problem starts.

I've seen it with my in-laws. A certain member of their family was arriving back in Thailand after a long period of working overseas with a reported 4-6 million baht in cash and they were all falling over themselves in speculation on who was to get what etc. Terrible.

I would agree with the people who said that this is not a Thai-Farang problem, it's a general problem.

My wife and I are actually in cahoots and give the impression that we have got a lot less money that we have. ha ha.

[Geekfreaklover]

Don't start in the first place. When you try to apply your western morals and generosity and lifestyle to their predicament, you'll be milked, drained, sucked dry and won't even hear a thank-you from them.

Sure they'll smile and serve you a cold beer when you visit (assuming you buy it) but you're not doing anyone any favors. You'll only create a few dependents for yourself. Look how Thais treat each other and gauge appropriate response based on that as a baseline. Don't let foreign concepts like charity or fairness and equity cloud your thinking.

If the limits of your generosity have no boundaries, the circle of groupies will expand to include neighbors, distant cousins, acquaintances ...

My advice is: don't ever start -- ever.

Texpat. You are correct.

Once you start hand outs it is impossible to stop.

Getting rid of a Thai girlfriend or spouse is very difficult. Getting shot of one that you have been supporting financially is very difficult, unless you do a runner.

[Dave the Dude]

Texpat. You are correct.

Once you start hand outs it is impossible to stop.

Getting rid of a Thai girlfriend or spouse is very difficult. Getting shot of one that you have been supporting financially is very difficult, unless you do a runner.

You chose your words wiselyGFL, as that can not only be difficult but it can be dangerous too.

Dave

[Livinginexile]

The more I read about these "must pay wifes family money every week" posts the more lucky I feel.

We pay zilch...zero...nothing because her family works hard for a living and her father is far too proud to rip his daughter off.

I feel sorry for you all.

[Livinginexile]

I look at it this way. A token amount (5k-10k baht? I dunno) per month to help the inlaws with the stipulation that they'll be no more forthcoming is ok. Basically it's money they wouldn't have had before so if they're truly sincere they'd be grateful. Plus as in the case of quite a few westerner's inlaws living out in the sticks 10k is a nice amount unless mum is playing hi-lo behind the temple every day.

My neighbour (a Thai guy) works for the government in a managerial position and he helps his inlaws (small rice farmers) for 10k a month. Nobody considers him a mug.

At the other end of the equation is the retired Swiss guy I met who bemoaned that even paying a mil sinsod, building a 1.5 mil baht house and buying a new pick up for his baanok inlaws his wife told him that the 40k baht a month he gave them as an allowance wasn't enough and they wanted more.

40k baht a month? There's a lot of decent hard working locals for who a 40k baht salary is an impossible dream let alone being given it gratis per month.

I politely told him he was being taken for a ride (not mentioning the fact that I found his gifts and allowance already put him in the sucker category for me). You could tell he wasn't listening.

2 things.

These folks were poor before "western son in law" came on the scene. They managed not to starve to death didn't they.

If there's the slightest niggle in the back of your mind that you're being taken for a sucker then chances are you are.

My stepdaughter lives with my wife's mother, and there are all the rest of the family in the same village. We bought a pick-up and pay a salary of 12k to one of the family who 'distributes' it when required.

We have also bought land that the family use, motorbikes, extended and refurbished my mother-in-law's house, pay for schooling for some of the family and donate money to the local school and temple.

I don't feel like I am being ripped-off or used in any way. These people are my family and have very little means of support. If my parents were as poor I would be doing exactly the same for them (but they're not!)

Yes but...given this senario, would your wife help to suport them? forever?

[bojo]

I notice the title of this topic refers to 'Isaan'. Do foreigners married to Thai's coming from other areas in Thailand, like the north or south experience 'milking' 'or being ripped off' as some of the posters have put it?

I'm aware that most foreigners marry Isaan girls and therefore pro rata the amount 'milked' will obviousely be more. Traditionally Isaan has always been known as the poorer area but there are plenty of Thais strapped for cash everywhere.

What is the preception out there?

Regards Bojo

[Geekfreaklover]

I notice the title of this topic refers to 'Isaan'. Do foreigners married to Thai's coming from other areas in Thailand, like the north or south experience 'milking' 'or being ripped off' as some of the posters have put it?

I'm aware that most foreigners marry Isaan girls and therefore pro rata the amount 'milked' will obviousely be more. Traditionally Isaan has always been known as the poorer area but there are plenty of Thais strapped for cash everywhere.

What is the preception out there?

Regards Bojo

Don't mind telling you my ex was from isaan. Ripped me off financially and became violent when she knew I was leaving. I'm not saying every Isaan woman is like that. They are not. But I keep hearing similar stories.

My current other half is from Bangkok. Her family have helped me out with money. Paid for our rent for a few months, found us a house and paid for me to do a language course.

There is a difference in my expereince. And it is about money.

You are less likely to get mugged in the street by someone that has money in the bank.

[bojo]

I'm aware that the tradition in the south is that when marrying, the husband to be will hand over dowry money and that the cash will be returned to the couple to pay for a house and or land to be built etc. Don't know if that is always the case, I suspect not.

Most posts I have read regarding Isaan dowrys are that the cash goes to the mum and dad and it gets spent willy nilly. Is that usually the case or do some members have 'happy ending ' stories as (Geekfreak is experiencing) they wouild like to share?

Regards Bojo

[Chewbacka]

You can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl.

[finchy]

You can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl.

I don't think that that tired old cliche really adds anything to this discussion. I'm you can come up with something more intelligent then to say then that bar stool classic.

[SNGLIFE]

My stepdaughter lives with my wife's mother, and there are all the rest of the family in the same village. We bought a pick-up and pay a salary of 12k to one of the family who 'distributes' it when required.

We have also bought land that the family use, motorbikes, extended and refurbished my mother-in-law's house, pay for schooling for some of the family and donate money to the local school and temple.

I don't feel like I am being ripped-off or used in any way. These people are my family and have very little means of support. If my parents were as poor I would be doing exactly the same for them (but they're not!)

My friend, you may be in the danger, danger category. My daughter (tossed the "step" immediately upon marriage) lives with us. If only you could hear the gossip I have heard over the years about what families really think about situations where the falang accepts the mother, but prefers/allows the kids to stay elsewhere. Danger, danger.

[JMS]

You can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl.

I don't think that that tired old cliche really adds anything to this discussion. I'm you can come up with something more intelligent then to say then that bar stool classic.

But it is related to this topic. Everyone here is talking about money being given to the WIFE and family members why do people do this. If you didn't would your WIFE still be with you. In most cases i don't think so as they stay with you for money not love with is understandable when you see the age gap

[Gary A]

Generalizing is stupid. Bar girls are the same as other people, some good, some bad. I married an educated girl with a degree and three of my friends married bar girls. Guess which marriage failed? The three who married bar girls are still happily married after more than ten years. One took his wife to the US and two stayed here.

Before anyone asks, my educated wife developed a gambling problem and finally decided that gambling was more important to her than I was. If you are involved with a Thai woman who gambles, you are heading for BIG problems.

[Geekfreaklover]

Generalizing is stupid. Bar girls are the same as other people, some good, some bad. I married an educated girl with a degree and three of my friends married bar girls. Guess which marriage failed? The three who married bar girls are still happily married after more than ten years. One took his wife to the US and two stayed here.

Before anyone asks, my educated wife developed a gambling problem and finally decided that gambling was more important to her than I was. If you are involved with a Thai woman who gambles, you are heading for BIG problems.

Sorry to hear that Gary.

My ex was a gambler.

The problem is that many boyfriends / husband don't realize that their other half is gambling until it is too late.

[MJP]

If the in-laws want a house or a truck or a 42 inch tv, they can get it the same way I do.

Work, save, buy it.

They get nothing from me and it all works very nicely.

This is correct.

Put them in the position where they have to do work to make it happen and they soon amaze even themselves. I help with a few basics in return for washing and cleaning, child care etc, but these people are finally standing on their own two feet.

I'm actually quite impressed.

To the chap that advocates an allowance. I did this for 6 years. Trouble was the proportion allocated to Ma and Pa rarely made it to the intended recipients, rather over the past two years it got spent on the boyfriend, gambling, drugs and booze.