Abhisit Stands Strong

[webfact]

SIX MONTHS INTO THIS GOVT

Abhisit stands strong

By JINTANA PANYAARVUDH,

KORNCHANOK RAKSASERI

THE NATION

Published on July 20, 2009

Asks for more time to prove himself; denies problems with Suthep

Despite renewed political pressure and economic uncertainty, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is still voicing staunch confidence in his "Strong Thailand" stimulus plan, saying the country is not ready for an early election.

In an exclusive interview with The Nation, Abhisit said the existing national divide would stop a truly democratic election from taking place because politicians could not visit hostile constituencies. This is why he is reluctant to dissolve the House, he explained.

"I'm willing to hold an election if, at some point, there is a consensus that an election is the only way out," he said. "I won't cling to power or try to stay until the end of my term. All I want to say is I don't want to see an election while some undemocratic political groups continue obstructing real [free and fair] competition. So, I won't hold an election as long as they still block [us] from entering certain areas."

The interview, which marked the government's six months in office, was held against the backdrop of serious political issues coming to a head, namely the Election Commission's attempt to disqualify 13 Democrats, a breakthrough in the investigation into the assassination attempt on Sondhi Limthongkul and growing pressure on Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya to quit.

The investigation into the Sondhi case is already threatening to sour the government's ties with the police and the military, whereas the Kasit issue has further affected Abhisit's relations with both the red and yellow shirts. In addition to the stormy relationship with his uneasy coalition allies, speculation about an early House dissolution has been rife and persistent.

However, yesterday Abhisit showed no signs of giving up any time soon, as he hit back at critics comparing his performance to that of fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

"Give me another two or three years, and I assure you, I will deliver more than Thaksin. I have to fix some of his legacies such as the Elite card, the 'We Care' housing project and the damages sustained by the rice market. If Thaksin did indeed solve the poverty problem, why do we still have so many poor people?" Abhisit asked.

The economic challenges |are tough, but they are not un-expected, he said, adding that the magnitude of the political divide and related crises had exceeded his expectations.

He confirmed that the economic growth this year would be minus 3 to 5 per cent, but said the economy should bounce back in the fourth quarter. His government's priority is to ensure a 1- to 2-per-cent GDP growth next year.

"The most important thing is to make sure the second phase of the Strong Thailand stimulus plan moves quick and effectively," he said. "It's imperative that we complete the programme, which - if it goes ahead as planned in the next two or three years - is guaranteed to deliver a massive change for the country. This programme seeks to arrest the decline of key foundations that have not been attended to over the past few years."

He also voiced confidence |in the potentially explosive |plan of overhauling land taxes and the government's efforts to revamp ways of guarantee-|ing crop prices. The government, he added, will also push for state banks to provide more loans to the private sector.

"We are very aware that the credit crunch and issue of interest and exchange rates remain the most frustrating aspects as far as the private sector is concerned," he said.

"We have been in constant contact and discussions with the Bank of Thailand, which we guarantee will remain independent. I think the crux of the interest-rate matter is that if rates drop any further, the question will arise as to whether it is really helping the economy. Moreover, if the banks don't lend, it won't matter how low the rates are," he said.

Abhisit also dismissed rumours about Suthep Thaugsuban's loyalty and denied that his ties with the power broker had soured to the point where the government's stability was being affected.

"We are still the same. We have been working together for a long time and there are no problems between us. Sometimes, we have some different opinions, but that is normal," Abhisit said.

-- The Nation 2009/07/20

[Ferwert]

SIX MONTHS INTO THIS GOVT

Abhisit stands strong

By JINTANA PANYAARVUDH,

KORNCHANOK RAKSASERI

THE NATION

Published on July 20, 2009

Asks for more time to prove himself; denies problems with Suthep

Despite renewed political pressure and economic uncertainty, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is still voicing staunch confidence in his "Strong Thailand" stimulus plan, saying the country is not ready for an early election.

In an exclusive interview with The Nation, Abhisit said the existing national divide would stop a truly democratic election from taking place because politicians could not visit hostile constituencies. This is why he is reluctant to dissolve the House, he explained.

"I'm willing to hold an election if, at some point, there is a consensus that an election is the only way out," he said. "I won't cling to power or try to stay until the end of my term. All I want to say is I don't want to see an election while some undemocratic political groups continue obstructing real [free and fair] competition. So, I won't hold an election as long as they still block [us] from entering certain areas."

The interview, which marked the government's six months in office, was held against the backdrop of serious political issues coming to a head, namely the Election Commission's attempt to disqualify 13 Democrats, a breakthrough in the investigation into the assassination attempt on Sondhi Limthongkul and growing pressure on Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya to quit.

The investigation into the Sondhi case is already threatening to sour the government's ties with the police and the military, whereas the Kasit issue has further affected Abhisit's relations with both the red and yellow shirts. In addition to the stormy relationship with his uneasy coalition allies, speculation about an early House dissolution has been rife and persistent.

However, yesterday Abhisit showed no signs of giving up any time soon, as he hit back at critics comparing his performance to that of fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

"Give me another two or three years, and I assure you, I will deliver more than Thaksin. I have to fix some of his legacies such as the Elite card, the 'We Care' housing project and the damages sustained by the rice market. If Thaksin did indeed solve the poverty problem, why do we still have so many poor people?" Abhisit asked.

The economic challenges |are tough, but they are not un-expected, he said, adding that the magnitude of the political divide and related crises had exceeded his expectations.

He confirmed that the economic growth this year would be minus 3 to 5 per cent, but said the economy should bounce back in the fourth quarter. His government's priority is to ensure a 1- to 2-per-cent GDP growth next year.

"The most important thing is to make sure the second phase of the Strong Thailand stimulus plan moves quick and effectively," he said. "It's imperative that we complete the programme, which - if it goes ahead as planned in the next two or three years - is guaranteed to deliver a massive change for the country. This programme seeks to arrest the decline of key foundations that have not been attended to over the past few years."

He also voiced confidence |in the potentially explosive |plan of overhauling land taxes and the government's efforts to revamp ways of guarantee-|ing crop prices. The government, he added, will also push for state banks to provide more loans to the private sector.

"We are very aware that the credit crunch and issue of interest and exchange rates remain the most frustrating aspects as far as the private sector is concerned," he said.

"We have been in constant contact and discussions with the Bank of Thailand, which we guarantee will remain independent. I think the crux of the interest-rate matter is that if rates drop any further, the question will arise as to whether it is really helping the economy. Moreover, if the banks don't lend, it won't matter how low the rates are," he said.

Abhisit also dismissed rumours about Suthep Thaugsuban's loyalty and denied that his ties with the power broker had soured to the point where the government's stability was being affected.

"We are still the same. We have been working together for a long time and there are no problems between us. Sometimes, we have some different opinions, but that is normal," Abhisit said.

-- The Nation 2009/07/20

• Two lame excuses to avoid elections, but understandable, considering the source and his political prognosis with regard to future elections. If I were him, I would do exactly the same thing. It is typical of any minority western Government hanging by a shoestring.
  
• "Abhisit stands strong"......A definite media agenization headline. I am surprised they didn't preface it with "The Oxford educated Abhisit stands strong". The media agenda loves to trumpet his Education and include it in descriptors of him as much as possible, assuming that alone will give him credibility. His lack of electoral legitimacy is completely avoided. Mind you, the inconsequential, Bangkok based foreign media do the same thing.
  
• "........undemocratic political groups obstruct......." that will certainly cause some dissafection with his friends in the PAD/New Politics. I'm sure they won't take that accusation lightly.
  
• The one reference to Thaksin was again preceded by the required 'fugitive' descriptor. True to form and in keeping with the agenda.
  
• I cannot find fault with all his talk about economic recovery initiatives. I am not an economist, and this stuff simply "goes over my head". I am sure a legitimate, Democratically elected Government with a popular mandate would do just as well. In fact, it is the Bureacracy that is probably driving these economic recovery programs anyway, and would do so under any Government.
  
• Notice he is afraid to tackle Suthep, who is now a DPM without electoral legitimacy. But that certainly doesn't surprise me.
  

Edited July 20, 2009 by Ferwert

[Tingnongnoi]

lol maybe Thaksin's reference was preceded by the fugitive tag because he actually is a Fugitive

[xminator]

As long as Abhisit does exactly what the junta that hold his strings want him to do, he will stay and fullfill his life ambition. There will be excuses for not holding new elections for 2 more years, then the election required by law - if ever held - will be viewed a complete scandal by anyone not aligned to the junta.

[midas]

As long as Abhisit does exactly what the junta that hold his strings want him to do, he will stay and fullfill his life ambition. There will be excuses for not holding new elections for 2 more years, then the election required by law - if ever held - will be viewed a complete scandal by anyone not aligned to the junta.

Ok - it just gives more time for the redshirts to sign up more members and to get even

more angry ?

[webfact]

...and the reds must fulfill their life ambition and bring back their convicted (by a court of law) and fugitive hero back into power!

Can we have some proof about what the "hunta" does?

[barrybankruad]

Typical 'Nation' crap. If we has a decent 'free' press in thei country completely free of govt. pressure etc. we might get a truer picture of what is going on. Why is it that one has to visit websites not controlled by the govt. to get the other side of the picture?

There will be no elections soon. This unelected govt will hang on as long as they can because they well know they don't have a snowballs chance of winning. Shades of Gordon Brown.

[Scott]

Wow, talk about propaganda.

[Sandstone Art]

lol maybe Thaksin's reference was preceded by the fugitive tag because he actually is a Fugitive

Agree.

That is so kind of the media that they did not use Thaksin's official state given LEGAL name.

Remember?

“Convicted Fugitive Republican Bad Man”

BTW,

PM Abhisit does not need to promote his good pedigree Education. It's a known fact that he is well educated.

[mc2]

"Abhisit Stands Stubborn" seems more accurate. strong is not a word I would associate with Abhsit. He barely has the strength to keep the coalition together, let alone the country.

[hammered]

Never understood why people expect papers to be unbiased. Surely that is impossible. I would rather a newspaper or any other media source be blatantly and apparently bias than pretend to be even handed (a lie anyway). Myself I like to read all opinions and certainly have nothing against bias. It is good to read what you disagree with, and to augment opinions in other ways. Media is after all propaganda.

'Freedom of the press means freedom to print such of the proprietor's prejudices as the advertisers don't object to.'

'Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one.'

'The most important service rendered by the press and the magazines is that of educating people to approach printed matter with distrust.'

'Men willingly believe what they wish.'

'The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.'

'As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do.'

[Ferwert]

Wow, talk about propaganda.

Expressing one's POV is not propaganda. It is a POV. If you disagree that is fine. Tell 'em so and why. Just to smear a comment with no input of your own is in poor taste. With my commentary and that of the English Language Media it is also not propaganda - we are agenda driven. I have a very clear pro-democracy agenda, pro-Thaksin, pro-democracy Red Shirt and pro-electoral political agenda...or is it opinion - I dunno!

I notice throughout this board, the tendency to demonize the pro-democracy Red Shirts. I am sure this comes from posters who have never been to a pro-democracy Red Shirt event, probably have never spoken to a Red Shirt person, etc. The fact they are negative is because the agenda of the anti-democracy PAD/New Politics and friends, including the English language Media is anti-democracy, and hence anti-Red Shirt. And because this is the only news outlet Farangs read, they are negative. The anti-democracy PAD who trashed and thieved Government house and did the airport thing without interference from their military friends dont even evoke the same degree of vitriol. The agendized media does a thorough job with Farangs. Let me help you get some balance. Accompany me to the next BKK pro-democracy Red Shirt event. Ignore those who say Farang's should never attend political functions like this. If you have an interest in Politics, why not. Pro-democracy Red Shirts are a wonderful cross-section of society. I will go so far as to guarantee that you would be warmly received, greeted, and high-fived at every turn. The Red Shirts consider Farangs as fellow Democracy advocates, considering that Farangs come from countries that have Democratic traditions. They know Farangs understand. These events do not have militarized perimeters and controls, and you would be surprised at the enormity of the turn-out. You may not understand any of the speeches, but the event is interesting to observe. It includes everything from little old ladies, professionals, business people, Monks, students, a few Farangs and yes, a smattering of Intellectually challenged dolts from the NE.

[Scott]

I don't really care to get into a slinging contest with anyone. In my opinion any article whose headline is "Abhisit Stands Strong" is propaganda.

By the way, your singing to the choir. I am red-shirt backer (or I guess I should say I am anti-PAD) and I am for democratic principles.

You can sing away as much as you want, but most of these forums are dominated by PAD apologists and frankly, I get tired of explaining a position which won't affect their thinking in the slightest. I just try to remind them once in a while there are others out there with a different opinion.

By the way what does POV mean?

[webfact]

Democrat tops donations recipient

Writer: BangkokPost.com

Published: 20/07/2009 at 12:59 PM

The ruling Democrat Party received the highest amount of donations or 43 million baht during the first five months (January-May) of the this year, followed by the opposition Puea Thai Party with 12 million baht, election commissioner Sodsri Sattayatham revealed on Monday.

According Mrs Sodsri, Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana came third in the amount of donations with 7.7 million baht, followed by Bhumjaithai 5 million baht, Chart Thai Pattana 2 million baht, Rassadorn 1.5 million baht, Thammaphiban Sangkhom 200,000 baht, Social Action 80,000 baht and Palang Pandin Thai 34,000 baht.

story continues: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...tions-recipient

-- Bangkok Post 2009/07/20

Edited July 20, 2009 by webfact

[mc2]

Never understood why people expect papers to be unbiased. Surely that is impossible. I would rather a newspaper or any other media source be blatantly and apparently bias than pretend to be even handed (a lie anyway). Myself I like to read all opinions and certainly have nothing against bias. It is good to read what you disagree with, and to augment opinions in other ways. Media is after all propaganda.

'Freedom of the press means freedom to print such of the proprietor's prejudices as the advertisers don't object to.'

'Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one.'

'The most important service rendered by the press and the magazines is that of educating people to approach printed matter with distrust.'

'Men willingly believe what they wish.'

'The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.'

'As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do.'

they are all good quotes,

on a positive note, the internet age is changing things now that people can get their information from a number of sources, not just relying on what the media chooses to report and in many cases, brainwash us with.

the red shirt protesting in BKK for example, i never trusted the local media for a truthful and fair account, i got my info from first hand online reports (many from Thai visa) and online international media which tended to be a lot less bias.

[Ferwert]

lol maybe Thaksin's reference was preceded by the fugitive tag because he actually is a Fugitive

Agree.

That is so kind of the media that they did not use Thaksin's official state given LEGAL name.

Remember?

"Convicted Fugitive Republican Bad Man"

BTW,

PM Abhisit does not need to promote his good pedigree Education. It's a known fact that he is well educated.

• I dont mean to make comment on Thaksin in one way or the other. I am commenting on the Media agenda whereby it is obligatory to preface all references to Mr. Thaksin with the word "fugitive". Always use the word 'fugitive' and Thaksin' in the same breath. In political contexts, that is called "opinion conditioning".
  
• I don't blame Abhisit for promoting his education. It is the media. The same 'opinion conditioning' phenomena at work. Preface Thaksin with Fugitive, and reference Abhisit's education at every turn and these ideas become fixed. Focussing on the education of Abhisit is basically an attempt to blunt the electoral illegitimacy argument. You are absolutely correct Sandstone Art, his education is a well known fact. With that media agenda, how could be otherwise.
  

[Insight]

Never understood why people expect papers to be unbiased. Surely that is impossible. I would rather a newspaper or any other media source be blatantly and apparently bias than pretend to be even handed (a lie anyway). Myself I like to read all opinions and certainly have nothing against bias. It is good to read what you disagree with, and to augment opinions in other ways. Media is after all propaganda.

'Freedom of the press means freedom to print such of the proprietor's prejudices as the advertisers don't object to.'

'Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one.'

'The most important service rendered by the press and the magazines is that of educating people to approach printed matter with distrust.'

'Men willingly believe what they wish.'

'The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.'

'As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do.'

they are all good quotes,

on a positive note, the internet age is changing things now that people can get their information from a number of sources, not just relying on what the media chooses to report and in many cases, brainwash us with.

the red shirt protesting in BKK for example, i never trusted the local media for a truthful and fair account, i got my info from first hand online reports (many from Thai visa) and online international media which tended to be a lot less bias.

Did you see the clip from Google Earth uploaded by one prominent red-shirt supporter showing the red-shirt crowd gathered in BKK? It was spectacular!

/edit - speeling/werds.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Insight

[Ferwert]

Never understood why people expect papers to be unbiased. Surely that is impossible. I would rather a newspaper or any other media source be blatantly and apparently bias than pretend to be even handed (a lie anyway). Myself I like to read all opinions and certainly have nothing against bias. It is good to read what you disagree with, and to augment opinions in other ways. Media is after all propaganda.

'Freedom of the press means freedom to print such of the proprietor's prejudices as the advertisers don't object to.'

'Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one.'

'The most important service rendered by the press and the magazines is that of educating people to approach printed matter with distrust.'

'Men willingly believe what they wish.'

'The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.'

'As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do.'

Yeah....cant argue with that hammered. You are right. The Thai media have a way of softening this agenda however, with professional Thai indirectness, that makes one believe they are reporting in a balanced way, and that the report is a factual account of events. The most blatant example is when I attend a 100,000 strong Red Shirt rally, and I read the next day that about 18,000 attended - Grrrrr! To a person like me though, who has a pro-Thaksin and pro-Red Shirts agenda, the agenda of the agenda-driven Thai media is extremely obvious. Every negative article I read about Thaksin, the pro-democracy red Shirts (and they are all the same) and the subtly positive one's about the anti-democracy PAD and friends, is a kick in the head. The Thai media gives me a headache - lol.

[stumonster]

He barely has the strength to keep the coalition together, let alone the country.

surely a step up from not having the money to keep a coalition together ?

only hindsight will enable us to judge Abhisit correctly.

[Ferwert]

I don't really care to get into a slinging contest with anyone. In my opinion any article whose headline is "Abhisit Stands Strong" is propaganda.

By the way, your singing to the choir. I am red-shirt backer (or I guess I should say I am anti-PAD) and I am for democratic principles.

You can sing away as much as you want, but most of these forums are dominated by PAD apologists and frankly, I get tired of explaining a position which won't affect their thinking in the slightest. I just try to remind them once in a while there are others out there with a different opinion.

By the way what does POV mean?

POV - point-of-view...... I know these forums are dominated by PAD apologists, as you say Scott, but that is the fun part. Or at least fun to me. I enjoy it. I visualize readers who perhaps are limited to mainly two sources - the English language Media and perhaps this board. They only ever hear one tune, and it is fun to confuse them with a perspective that is like a 'bolt out of the blue". When everyone in their universe dumps on Thaksin and the Pro-democracy Red Shirts, it is fun to present a POV that jars their comfort- opinion-zone. By this I also want to stress that I mean no disrespect to anyone's opinion. To the contrary, I was there. I used to think Thaksin was a real a--hole until I received a lengthy influence discussing in details the Pre-Thaksin Thailand, and other historical information. Within that context, Thaksin looked a whole lot better, and I began to understand why there is such a pervasive anti-Thaksin demonization campaign. He stepped on a lot of toe's that should have been stepped on long before his time. Another anecdote - I attended a very sad Funeral in a poverty stricken village, of two teenage girls killed in a motorcycle accident. Both previous students of mine, one of whom had been admitted to University. My schoolteacher wife declared matter-of-factly that now girls from those socio-economic circumstances would be unable to go to University. It was a Thaksin program that had enabled it before, which had now been cancelled. Is it any wonder that his electoral strength remains intact and overcomes all propaganda to the contrary.

[slimdog]

• I cannot find fault with all his talk about economic recovery initiatives. I am not an economist, and this stuff simply "goes over my head". I am sure a legitimate, Democratically elected Government with a popular mandate would do just as well. In fact, it is the Bureacracy that is probably driving these economic recovery programs anyway, and would do so under any Government.
  

The biggest problem for Abhisit, is going to be the economy. Nearly everything else is secondary. Which means that if he doesn't start to begin sorting this out, and relatively quickly, then any other accomplishments will get ignored. Abhisit has got the theory, he has most of the finance, but putting it into practice is going to be a herculean task.

IMHO, his problem is going to be the bureacracy. It is not that they are incapable, it just that too many decent bureacrats have either been dismissed, indicted or put under investigation because they have carried out the political will of the Government of the day. For them, the most natural thing to do is, nothing. They will certainly form a number of committee's, multiple sub-committee's and panels, they will hand the issue over to think tanks, in fact they will do anything, other than authorise the spending of the money.

And if the money doesn't get out, and circulated among the people, then there isn't any recovery until the world economy picks up, and the private sector starts investing on it's own. By that time Abhisit is politically dead..

[hammered]

Never understood why people expect papers to be unbiased. Surely that is impossible. I would rather a newspaper or any other media source be blatantly and apparently bias than pretend to be even handed (a lie anyway). Myself I like to read all opinions and certainly have nothing against bias. It is good to read what you disagree with, and to augment opinions in other ways. Media is after all propaganda.

'Freedom of the press means freedom to print such of the proprietor's prejudices as the advertisers don't object to.'

'Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one.'

'The most important service rendered by the press and the magazines is that of educating people to approach printed matter with distrust.'

'Men willingly believe what they wish.'

'The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.'

'As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do.'

they are all good quotes,

on a positive note, the internet age is changing things now that people can get their information from a number of sources, not just relying on what the media chooses to report and in many cases, brainwash us with.

the red shirt protesting in BKK for example, i never trusted the local media for a truthful and fair account, i got my info from first hand online reports (many from Thai visa) and online international media which tended to be a lot less bias.

The internet certainly gives us many more sources. Of course they all have their own biases too;) It does mean disenting voices are more likely though. It also gives us an opportunity to own our own press although our voices will remain small in comparison to major news networks. The Iran thing was interesting too although if it hadnt been amplified by the media it may not have been as big. Was the story about the twitter revolution or really about the media ability to choose and influence?

The internet, though, still remains a tool of the few in real terms and in the hands of the better off usually. The poor in Honduras didnt have a twitter revolution after the coup unlike the students in Iran. It will be interesting to see the direction this takes in Thailand now. Both red and yellow are media savvy and will have taken note.

[midas]

Typical 'Nation' crap. If we has a decent 'free' press in thei country completely free of govt. pressure etc. we might get a truer picture of what is going on. Why is it that one has to visit websites not controlled by the govt. to get the other side of the picture?

There will be no elections soon. This unelected govt will hang on as long as they can because they well know they don't have a snowballs chance of winning. Shades of Gordon Brown.

And many similarities to what is happening right now in Honduras ?

[TAWP]

You can sing away as much as you want, but most of these forums are dominated by PAD apologists

I know these forums are dominated by PAD apologists, as you say Scott,

And again you are wrong but like to pretend your view is fact.

Wake up lads, welcome to the real world.

This forum might be dominated by anti-Thaksin posters but not by pro-PAD posters. (They are infact only some handful of them, almost the same low numbers as rabid Red-fans posting here...)

[hammered]

• I cannot find fault with all his talk about economic recovery initiatives. I am not an economist, and this stuff simply "goes over my head". I am sure a legitimate, Democratically elected Government with a popular mandate would do just as well. In fact, it is the Bureacracy that is probably driving these economic recovery programs anyway, and would do so under any Government.
  

The biggest problem for Abhisit, is going to be the economy. Nearly everything else is secondary. Which means that if he doesn't start to begin sorting this out, and relatively quickly, then any other accomplishments will get ignored. Abhisit has got the theory, he has most of the finance, but putting it into practice is going to be a herculean task.

IMHO, his problem is going to be the bureacracy. It is not that they are incapable, it just that too many decent bureacrats have either been dismissed, indicted or put under investigation because they have carried out the political will of the Government of the day. For them, the most natural thing to do is, nothing. They will certainly form a number of committee's, multiple sub-committee's and panels, they will hand the issue over to think tanks, in fact they will do anything, other than authorise the spending of the money.

And if the money doesn't get out, and circulated among the people, then there isn't any recovery until the world economy picks up, and the private sector starts investing on it's own. By that time Abhisit is politically dead..

I think you got it there and that both government and opposition know it. The government will do their best to disburse, invest and propogandize their achievements while the opposition will do their best to stymie, obstruct and propogandize government failure. The opposition have one advantage they will compare to Thaksin who governed through a time of economic ease relative to what Abhisit faces. Plus people still remember the Chuan government which again was landed with governing at a time of economic pressure. I make you right on the bureacracy. They must be paranoid about doing anything right now.

Academically, it would actually be interesting to see how the Dems did in a time of economic ease and Thaksin in a time of economic turmoil.

My guess is Abhisit will take the blame for the economy and run out of parliamentary time one way or ther other. What comes after that, if indeed it transpires this way, is up in the air and will be linked to other big events.

[Ferwert]

You can sing away as much as you want, but most of these forums are dominated by PAD apologists

I know these forums are dominated by PAD apologists, as you say Scott,

And again you are wrong but like to pretend your view is fact.

Wake up lads, welcome to the real world.

This forum might be dominated by anti-Thaksin posters but not by pro-PAD posters. (They are infact only some handful of them, almost the same low numbers as rabid Red-fans posting here...)

If my memory serves me right, you stated something similar before - I stand more guilty of that Tawp - dam_n boring repetition - I think you are the one who adheres to the POV that they are all the same, and a "pox on all their houses - PAD and Red Shirts alike". I happen to believe that this position serves the interests of the anti-democratic PAD/New Politics/military and all others associated with this notion of doing away with Electoral Democracy. If you come from electoral democratic traditions, are you OK with an appointive process? If you are comfortable with that, and would easily eliminate hard-won and never to be regained voting rights, than you would be difficult for me to reason with. For those of you who see the appointive process as being anathema to electoral democracy, than you would see merit in a favorable pro-democracy Red Shirt position - that is if you took the time to assess them from sources other than the Thai English language media. The best assessment would be to check out a pro-democracy Red Shirt event next time there is one near you. You would be amazed at the societal representational make-up of the participants, plus the size of the gatherings. The media has so consistently and grossly under-reported the Red Shirt numbers that the enormity of these gatherings are the first to baffle you - that is if they report on them at all. Bangkok can be having a 100,000 person rally and the TV would show a dance program, the newspapers MAY provide a short 5th-6th page report indicating the Red Shirts had a rally at Sanam Luang, and about 18-20 thousand attended.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Ferwert

[LawnGnome]

You can sing away as much as you want, but most of these forums are dominated by PAD apologists

I know these forums are dominated by PAD apologists, as you say Scott,

And again you are wrong but like to pretend your view is fact.

Wake up lads, welcome to the real world.

This forum might be dominated by anti-Thaksin posters but not by pro-PAD posters. (They are infact only some handful of them, almost the same low numbers as rabid Red-fans posting here...)

If my memory serves me right, you stated something similar before - I stand more guilty of that Tawp - dam_n boring repetition - I think you are the one who adheres to the POV that they are all the same, and a "pox on all their houses - PAD and Red Shirts alike". I happen to believe that this position serves the interests of the anti-democratic PAD/New Politics/military and all others associated with this notion of doing away with Electoral Democracy. If you come from electoral democratic traditions, are you OK with an appointive process? If you are comfortable with that, and would easily eliminate hard-won and never to be regained voting rights, than you would be difficult for me to reason with. For those of you who see the appointive process as being anathema to electoral democracy, than you would see merit in a favorable pro-democracy Red Shirt position - that is if you took the time to assess them from sources other than the Thai English language media. The best assessment would be to check out a pro-democracy Red Shirt event next time there is one near you. You would be amazed at the societal representational make-up of the participants, plus the size of the gatherings. The media has so consistently and grossly under-reported the Red Shirt numbers that the enormity of these gatherings are the first to baffle you - that is if they report on them at all. Bangkok can be having a 100,000 person rally and the TV would show a dance program, the newspapers MAY provide a short 5th-6th page report indicating the Red Shirts had a rally at Sanam Luang, and about 18-20 thousand attended.

I like Abhisit. He is well spoken and looks like an international leader. I like the way he speaks about issues. He is respectful of media and of collegues (something he predecessors definitely lacked). He has weathered all the punches thrown at him the past 6 months, including those from within his own party, very well, in my opinion. The "ferwert" refrain aside, I can't see any better candidate to lead the country at this time. Signs are that the economy will improve in the last quarter of the year, and with that, Abhisit will be on even more secure footing. After the constitutional changes are finished, and new elections are held, I think we will see in back in office as PM, because the alternatives are so unpalatable.

[animatic]

Why don't you believe it is possible to support some goals of BOTH Red Shirts and PAD,

and not actual support the existence of EITHER group, only a partial set of their goals

that happen to parallel SOME of your views?

I CAN agree with a few Red Shirt goals,

while find them as a group and their motus operandi, totally lacking

redeeming qualities, and and many bordering on dangerous for most Thais.

The same goes for several PAD goals, but far from all,

and as a group after day 2 of the airport they lost the plot anyway.

Hectoring nationalism and buzz word attacks on others are not the way forward for all.

But both groups are equally guilty of those malfeasances.

You can easily be pro-monarchy,

and not support the hedgmony of the uber-elites over the dirt poor.

Be anti-Thaksin and still be pro Issan farmers.

Be pro-business and not pro-usury or pro-penury for farmers.

Be anti-PTP BECAUSE they perpetuate the system that keeps the people down ALSO

while hypocritically pretending they don't for political power reasons.

And still not being 100% pro Democrats, because their reforms haven'y been completed yet.

You also can support the current government as the less offensive option

in a time when changing to the alternative seems wholly suicidal as a nation.

Yet still be happy when a few of that team get sidelined for corruption also.

In other words, living in Thailand often means embracing a bevy of dichotomies

and the "lesser of two weavils" just to keep things moving, because the alternatives are even worse.

For all the colors on display, the reality is painted in 1,000 shades of gray.

[LawnGnome]

Why don't you believe it is possible to support some goals of BOTH Red Shirts and PAD,

and not actual support the existence of EITHER group, only a partial set of their goals

that happen to parallel SOME of your views?

I CAN agree with a few Red Shirt goals,

while find them as a group and their motus operandi, totally lacking

redeeming qualities, and and many bordering on dangerous for most Thais.

The same goes for several PAD goals, but far from all,

and as a group after day 2 of the airport they lost the plot anyway.

Hectoring nationalism and buzz word attacks on others are not the way forward for all.

But both groups are equally guilty of those malfeasances.

You can easily be pro-monarchy,

and not support the hedgmony of the uber-elites over the dirt poor.

Be anti-Thaksin and still be pro Issan farmers.

Be pro-business and not pro-usury or pro-penury for farmers.

Be anti-PTP BECAUSE they perpetuate the system that keeps the people down ALSO

while hypocritically pretending they don't for political power reasons.

And still not being 100% pro Democrats, because their reforms haven'y been completed yet.

You also can support the current government as the less offensive option

in a time when changing to the alternative seems wholly suicidal as a nation.

Yet still be happy when a few of that team get sidelined for corruption also.

In other words, living in Thailand often means embracing a bevy of dichotomies

and the "lesser of two weavils" just to keep things moving, because the alternatives are even worse.

For all the colors on display, the reality is painted in 1,000 shades of gray.

As usual, I agree with Animatic 100%. I'd vote for him for some office, if I had the chance. I admire Ferwert's passion, but Animatic's logic quickly cuts through most of his assertions.

[TAWP]

You can sing away as much as you want, but most of these forums are dominated by PAD apologists

I know these forums are dominated by PAD apologists, as you say Scott,

And again you are wrong but like to pretend your view is fact.

Wake up lads, welcome to the real world.

This forum might be dominated by anti-Thaksin posters but not by pro-PAD posters. (They are infact only some handful of them, almost the same low numbers as rabid Red-fans posting here...)

If my memory serves me right, you stated something similar before - I stand more guilty of that Tawp - dam_n boring repetition - I think you are the one who adheres to the POV that they are all the same, and a "pox on all their houses - PAD and Red Shirts alike". I happen to believe that this position serves the interests of the anti-democratic PAD/New Politics/military /.. snipped for focus ../

Ofcourse you think that not being against one group you are against would in any way be positive for them and therefor unacceptable.

But as I am a Libertarian, not a fake-democracy-fan of the red, I don't care for either side.

Now if only there was an alternative for me and my family...