Abhidhamma

[Abandon]

Since Sabaijai called me

a hip neo-Buddhist who picks and chooses among the pitakas as if browsing a buffet dinner

I thought I would bring up the topic of Abhidhamma.

In Buddhist cosmology it is the teaching that the Buddha gave to his mother in the Tavaimsa heaven, and to the devas gathered there. Sariputta, the Buddha's main disciple, asked that this teaching be given to the human world too, and he accumulated the texts. The Buddha was reluctant as only devas would have the capacity to understand it.

Historically the Abhidhamma did not appear until the 3rd Buddhist council 200 years after the Buddha passed away. The style and the language of the Abhidhamma also point to it being a later work by Buddhist philosophers.

So is it Genuine Buddha-word, or a later addition? Is it correct in it's interpretations? Is it really the 'higher' dhamma?

I have read the Abhidhammattha Sangaha 4 or 5 times, read a few of Nina Van Gorkham's books, read a selection of about 10 sections (suttas if you like) from each of the 7 texts as recommended by one of my teachers, and plodded through some large sections of the Katthavathu which was interesting (especially as many of the 'herasies' in it are in fact modern abhidhamma stances). Oversaw and arranged the Abhidhamma section in the triple CD rom "What Did the Buddha Teach" which we based muchly on the advise of professor Ravi (reknowned abhidhamma expert at Chulalongkorn). And attended about 5 or 6 classes of Wat Maha Taht Abhidhamma courses to see if I would be interested.

I also wrote a little article comparing the Theravada texts with the Hinayana texts as recorded in China. Comparisons showed that the Digha Nikaya and Majjhima nikaya followed each other closely in the Th. and Chinese texts. The Samyutta and anguttara Nikaya followed each other in style and format, but not closely in arrangement or number of suttas. The Abhidhamma of the various Hinayana schoools varied so vastly as to suggest that they were indeed later additions. (happy to mail the article to anyone interested).

My own conclusion is that

1) the abhidhamma is very inaccessible due to its stodgy format

2) is a later addition, and is not the Buddha word

3) Abhidhamma teachers rarely use the original texts but rely on mostly burmese commentaries that came well over a 1000 years after the Buddha

4) Abhidhamma scholars feel superior in Buddhism to anyone who has not studied their courses

Also feel that a person's advancement in Buddhism does not depend so much on their school of practise or study, so much as their own merits. Prof. Ravi is a fine example of this - I found him most admirable, despite my reluctance with the abhidhamma.

Is this a bit too far for the posters here? If so apologies. But I get the feeling that many of you really do know your stuff, neo-Buddhists included.

[sabaijai]

Pandit, I've been in the mountains of N Thailand for the last 11 days without access to phones or Internet, sorry I didn't reply earlier.

I didn't mean to identify you as a buffet Buddhist, just saying that I wouldn't ID myself that way.

The authenticty of the Abhidhamma Pitaka has long been a point of debate, indeed even the Sutta Pitaka has a legion of questioners.

Is the Buddhist canon held to be divinely inspired, like, for example, the Bible or the Koran? I don't think so. Hence there's no urgent necessity for all of the Pitakas to be "Genuine Buddha-word" as you put it, only that they represent the essence of his teachings -- and that includes the commentaries -- as approved by the six Buddhist Councils. I see nothing particularly controversial in that (as a Pali Buddhist, that is; Mahayanists and other sects have their own versions of the canon).

The teachers I trust most have all urged the full use of the Tipitaka, and that's sufficient reason for me. I don't yet have the wisdom to pick and choose. But if you're looking for serious friction, just Google for "Abhidhamma" and "authenticity" you'll find lots of fodder for debate.

Samples:

"One also frequently hears the question asked whether the Abhidhamma is necessary for a full understanding of the Dhamma or for final liberation. In this general form, the question is not quite adequately put. Even in the Sutta Pitaka many different methods of practice, many 'gates' to the understanding of the same four Truths and to the final goal, Nibbana, are shown. Not all of them are 'necessary' or suitable in their entirety for all individual disciples, who will make their personal choice among these various methods of approach according to circumstances, inclination and growing maturity. The same holds true for the Abhidhamma both as a whole and in its single aspects and teachings.

"The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying glass, but the understanding gained from the Suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Suttas is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance, and the suffering caused by it."

[Darknight]

mmmmmm, Buffet....

Homer simpson

[Abandon]

Been in the mountains huh? Lucky, lucky [so-and-so] Hope you were on retreat. I did a retreat up there 7 years ago and it was just fantastic - the cool air, the quiet, ahhhhh.

I was pushing the topic a bit far I think, not too many familiar with the Abhidhamma here. I did do a few searches as you suggested and while there are lots of good aspects on the whole it makes me glad we did not get to far into the subject here.

I changed my avatar by the way - Now I have Bodhidharma, the original hip neo-Buddhist ( ) He's is holding a glass of water, and there is a water jug in front of him. Not quite sure what it means in this instance, but makes a cool avatar.

[sabaijai]

Been in the mountains huh? Lucky, lucky [so-and-so] Hope you were on retreat. I did a retreat up there 7 years ago and it was just fantastic - the cool air, the quiet, ahhhhh.

I was pushing the topic a bit far I think, not too many familiar with the Abhidhamma here. I did do a few searches as you suggested and while there are lots of good aspects on the whole it makes me glad we did not get to far into the subject here.

I changed my avatar by the way - Now I have Bodhidharma, the original hip neo-Buddhist (   ) He's is holding a glass of water, and there is a water jug in front of him. Not quite sure what it means in this instance, but makes a cool avatar.

I can't quite make it out, but could the vessels depicted be a cup and a teapot? According to Chinese mythology, Bodhidharma invented tea. Vigilant in his meditation, and fed up with falling asleep, he allegedly cut off his eyelids and threw them on the ground. The eyelids took root and created the first tea plant, and of course tea is still used today as an aid to staying awake ...

Yes I was on a retreat. The nights were very cool, but the air smoky, as it tends to be in rural Thailand this time of year.

[Abandon]

The avatar is here:

http://www.chinesepaintings.com/chinese-fi...intings-10.html

Some utterly fantastic pictures at this site. I went to a few lectures of a guy explaining Zen art, and though he admitted he was never sure, he knew enough to show us that all the tools, the placement, the colours, the clothes etc.. all have a meaning. Usually it was fairly basic philosophy for one familiar with Zen, but the pictures are really involved and symbolic on many levels. I wish I had paid more attention.

Happy you had a good retreat - a personal one or structured with a teacher? Or were you teaching it? What system of meditation do you use if any. And I'm still curious on your past comment about Satipatthana as you took a slightly different angle than the common Mahasi Sayadaw one.

[sabaijai]

Happy you had a good retreat - a personal one or structured with a teacher? Or were you teaching it? What system of meditation do you use if any. And I'm still curious on your past comment about Satipatthana as you took a slightly different angle than the common Mahasi Sayadaw one.

Personal, at Wat Tham Thong, Hot district. I've participated in a number of retreats based on the Mahasi Sayadaw method, under various teachers (mostly Burmese, a few Thai), but what I've drifted towards these days is more akin to Krishnamurti's choiceless awareness, without 'noting', opening to conditions for satipatthana vipassana to arise. One doesn't need a retreat to do this. I needed the rest more than anything.

[wayfarer]

Pandit35, I passed your comments on to Nina Van Gorkom, who is an acquaintance of mine. Here's what she wrote back:

Just reading the text may make the work seem 'stodgy' rather than 'literary', but the Abhidhamma is not meant for pure book study, it is to be lived and experienced. When put into practise, one discovers many, many defilements, coarse and subtle, one had never thought of before. One comes to see that lobha arises in a day more often than one could dream of. Lobha can take any object through the six doorways.

Through the Abhidhamma we come to know the deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thoughts. We often deceive ourselves as to the motives of our actions, speech and thoughts, thinking they are wholesome when they are not. In reality they are mostly directed towards our own gain, they are motivated by selfish desire. With a growing understanding of the latent tendencies that are powerful conditions for all akusala cittas in our life, we will come to be mindful of all realities, akusala included.

By reflecting and being aware of whatever reality appears we can learn to become more sincere and truthful with regard to the cittas that arise. Learning about the latent tendencies helps us to understand why we again and again make the same mistakes in life. We learn more details about conceit and come to know that it can arise with regard to any object we experience.

We should study the Abhidhamma together with Suttanta and Vinaya. Through the Vinaya we learn about many shades and degrees of defilements, to see danger in the smallest faults. Through the Abhidhamma we come to understand more the Buddha's message contained in the suttas and the Vinaya. The Abhidhamma is closely connected with satipatthana.

You do not have to read through all the lists, but you can learn that the Abhidhamma pertains to daily life. Little by little it can become more interesting.

It helps to cling less to the importance of my personality, my life.

Nina.

[Abandon]

SabaiJai - sounds like you are one of Ajahn Sumedho's lineage. I 'note' ( ) that Mahasi Sayadaw himself used to say noting was with just 10% of the mind, and noticing was 90% . I found that as a beginner the more the emphasis on noting the easier it was to interrupt the stream of thoughts and come back to the present. The more that the mindful state becomes familiar it seemed less and less necessary to emphasise the noting, and better to rest more in the awareness. For each section of the Satipatthana sutta there is a clause at the end reading

Or else mindfulness that 'there is body [feeling, mind, dhamma]is simply established in him to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness

It's also interesting that in the introduction to one of Mahasi Sayadaw's books it says he initilally would only teach the 'system' to those who had already attained to Jhana (absorption concentration meditation). Only later, at the insistence of his followers did he open the retreats for other non-jhana meditatiors.

[Abandon]

Wow, we are honoured that Nina took the time to write for us. Funny though, I would apply her comments to "dhamma" rather than abhidhamma specifically. Naturally the former encompasses the latter. The other thing that seems worthy of mentioning is that Nina's books and teaching style stand out precisely because of her bringing the abhidhamma down to earth and incorporating it into a highly relevant pracitse.

These days I try and go to the original source as much as I can, though later writers/interpreters are useful to read too, especially the pragmatic ones who come from the angle of practise. I have battled through the suttas and vinaya, but can't see myself ever tackling the original abhidahmma texts in a systematic way.

[wayfarer]

By the way, Pandit35, where did you hear that the Abhidhamma was collated by the 3rd Buddhist Council? I'd never heard that. All the accounts I have read say the Tipitaka was collated in its complege, three-basket form, during the 1st Buddhist Council. Here's what one Web source says:

THE FIRST BUDDHIST COUNCIL

Because the teachings had not been written down at the time of Buddha,

whatever he taught was learned by heart and memorized by his disciples.

It is believed that the Buddha gave 84,000 units of teachings during his

lifetime. Just after the death of the Buddha in 544 B.C., his

disciples, headed by the Elder Mahakasapa, decided to hold a council to

collect his teachings and record them by word of mouth. This was done a

little more than three months after the death of the Buddha, at the

Sattapanni Cave near Rajgiri, the capital of Magadha (now the Indian

state of Bihar). Five hundred arahants ("fully enlightened beings") met

to hold this council. The Elder Mahakassapa presided over this council

and acted as the "questioner" and the Elder Upali and the Elder Ananda

acted as the "answerers" for the Vinaya ( displinary rules for monks,

nuns and novices) and the Dhamma( suttas or sermons and Abhidhamma)

respectively. The teachings of the Buddha were minutely scrutinized as

to where, when, on what occasion, to which person or persons they were

taught, and many other points as well.. When all present were satisfied

with the authenticiry of a discourse to be the exact teaching of the

Buddha, all recited it to show their acceptance. By reciting the

discourse in unison, they gave their approval. It took seven months to

bring this Council to conclusion. These teachings, accepted and recited

in unison at the First Buddhist Council, were handed down from teacher

to pupil by word of mouth to future generations.

At this council, the assembled arahants not only collected and

scrutinized the teachings, but also classified them and grouped them

into different divisions. The most well known division is that into

what we call Pitakas ('baskets" or "learnings"), namely, the Vinaya

Pitaka, the Sutta ( or Suttanta) Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The

Vinaya Pitaka ( which deals with the rules and disciplines for monks,

nuns and novices) is the Book of Law for monks, nuns and novices. The

second Pitaka consists of discourses given by the Buddha on different

occasions. This Pitaka is the most popular among monks and lay people

alike. The third Pitaka, the Abhidfhamma,deals with the ultimate

truths: consciousness, mental factors and so on.

Another classification is into Nikaya or "Collections." They are Digha

Nikaya, Collection of Long Discoursses; Mjjhima Nikaya, the Collection

of Medium Length Discourses; Samyutta Nikaya, The Collection of Kindred

Discourses; Anguttara Nikaya, the Collection of Discourses with the

number of units increasing gradually, and Khuddaka Nikaya, the

Collection of Minor Discourses. Among them the first four Nikayas

belong to the Sutta Pitaka, whereas the last Nikaya comprises Vinaya and

Abhidhamma Pitakas, and other discourses that are not included in the

first four Nikayas."

history of the Buddhist canon

On the other hand I'm not sure that it really matters at what point the Abhidhamma was written down, as all six councils have approved of its contents.

It seems to rest on whether 'Dhamma', as collated by the 1st council, contained both the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma or just the Suttanta.

However if you only trust what was collated during the 1st council, then you have to suspect the Apadana section of the Sutta Pitaka as well as the Parivara of the Vinaya Pitaka, both of which some scholars believe may date to later periods.

It's difficult for non-arahants like ourselves to differentiate, knowing how learned and accomplished the distinguished monks who served on these councils were.