Thailand 'elite' Program In Tatters

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Like so many countries or companies or schemes opting to cater for "high-end" customers, and forgetting the "bread-and-butter" basic customers, this plan also went down the drain. The choices made are wrong, very wrong. And might I say, very expensive.....for the deluded customers.

Middle class tourists bring in most money per head per day, not the mass tourist organised in groups, not the high end customers.

So woo the "disgusting" backpackers, because they will keep coming back, even when they get older and richer.

Well put - I'm afraid. Booked me a room not far from Kao San, wanted to check out what being a tourist in Bangkok felt like. Weird and a bit on the expensive side for someone entrenched in real life, but YES! The dirty kiddo's with backpacks will be back, they are still enjoying themselves. They probably sneak up to their rooms w. "fan an air" at only 1200 Baht to smoke a reefer before the next DVD show.

Yes, they'll be back to their favoured beach, kids 'n' all and spending more money, but can't really see them being part of the Thai Heritage. More like a Costa-del-Sol-kind of image. I don't like that image.

This is poorly thought out nonsense. Remember that many backpackers are travelling during their gap year during university.

The "Costa del Sol" types generally aren't 'backpackers' at all.

[doggie888888]

Reading the posts here makes me think about an older thread...about jealous and envious Thais. Apparently, jealousy and envy amongst the expat community is even more strident, if one were to read the posts here. Why else would someone LAUGHT and TAKE PLEASURE at someone else's misfortunes? One possible reason at the delight at the failure of TE is that perhaps many of the non-TE members are worried that if the scheme was a success, it might mean the bar might be heightened so that t becomes financially more stringent for a visa to retire or live here. I am speculating as some posters speculate that ALL TE membners are idiots and fools :-)

The 2000 odd members range from retirees who may have overstretched for the thb1mil fee, to CEOs who had the fee paid by their companies, to plain old wealthy persons where thb1mil is "play money". Not many amongst these went into the scheme thinking there are guarantees, and even fewer view this as an "investment". If you had USD10mil in the bank, and THB 1mil exempts you from all the issues people complain about at immigration (queues, annual renewals, changing requirements etc) then it's a lifestyle decision to spend some of one's money for a bit of conveninece. I know at least 10 members - all knew this is Thailand, and all had the attitude; let's pay for the convenience and see how far this will go and c'est la vie if it does not work out. Of course they won't be happy (you dont get rich by giving away money needlessly) but they won't jump off a balcony as some farangs are wont to do in Pattaya.

Now I speak personally as a member: no sympathy is required as the thb1mil for me was part of annual expenditure i.e. one less holiday in the year I paid for it, I went into it knowing TIT... it was not an investment decision, merely to buy some convenience and to buy me a few years because I am under 50yo. So for me, thb 1 mil is to buy 5 years hassle free in Thailand, of which I have enjoyed 2 years already, no regrets and no issues with immigration whatsoever. I note some of the posters who delight at TE's demise here have posted in other threads MOANING about queues, red tape, changing requirements for visa purporse and other bla bla about visa/immigration. I can understand the frustration but please don't take it out on others who decided to pay to be exempted from your own pain and suffering.

[ozvenison]

They never protected the downside.

Nobody considered what would happen if they didn't meet sales targets. Now, will there be a refund to the card holders (2,570 times 1,000,000 baht) or just close shop and tell customers nothing. Either way, a scandalous scam from beginning to end.

As a member of TE I also have some concerns...

I am not sure where this reporter is getting these figures from but 4,600thb for a game of golf DOUBLE the going price of 90% of the courses on offer (now and 4 years ago) so it disrorts the figures reported (no doubt he/she doesnt play the game locally)! Not even Alpine was charging at that rate for a walk in??? Muang Kaew base price is currently 2,000thb!

The BMW 7 series was only introduced in the last 18 months... prior to that cheaper and suitable vehicles were available... Let's get real on this... it is a only a 30-40 minute trip from the airport to central bkk.

I would love to see the books of TE for each year and see where all the money has been spent? To me it appears that most of it has been on management and board members... I was told that 150 TAT staff were 'transfered' to TE which helps the TAT books but not TE itself?

I have been a member for 4 years... the service from the staff is FANTASTIC... The upper level management and board of TE & TAT must take repsonsibilty for their actions...

[midas]

Reading the posts here makes me think about an older thread...about jealous and envious Thais. Apparently, jealousy and envy amongst the expat community is even more strident, if one were to read the posts here. Why else would someone LAUGHT and TAKE PLEASURE at someone else's misfortunes? One possible reason at the delight at the failure of TE is that perhaps many of the non-TE members are worried that if the scheme was a success, it might mean the bar might be heightened so that t becomes financially more stringent for a visa to retire or live here. I am speculating as some posters speculate that ALL TE membners are idiots and fools :-)

The 2000 odd members range from retirees who may have overstretched for the thb1mil fee, to CEOs who had the fee paid by their companies, to plain old wealthy persons where thb1mil is "play money". Not many amongst these went into the scheme thinking there are guarantees, and even fewer view this as an "investment". If you had USD10mil in the bank, and THB 1mil exempts you from all the issues people complain about at immigration (queues, annual renewals, changing requirements etc) then it's a lifestyle decision to spend some of one's money for a bit of conveninece. I know at least 10 members - all knew this is Thailand, and all had the attitude; let's pay for the convenience and see how far this will go and c'est la vie if it does not work out. Of course they won't be happy (you dont get rich by giving away money needlessly) but they won't jump off a balcony as some farangs are wont to do in Pattaya.

Now I speak personally as a member: no sympathy is required as the thb1mil for me was part of annual expenditure i.e. one less holiday in the year I paid for it, I went into it knowing TIT... it was not an investment decision, merely to buy some convenience and to buy me a few years because I am under 50yo. So for me, thb 1 mil is to buy 5 years hassle free in Thailand, of which I have enjoyed 2 years already, no regrets and no issues with immigration whatsoever. I note some of the posters who delight at TE's demise here have posted in other threads MOANING about queues, red tape, changing requirements for visa purporse and other bla bla about visa/immigration. I can understand the frustration but please don't take it out on others who decided to pay to be exempted from your own pain and suffering.

doggie I don't " LAUGH and TAKE PLEASURE " at your misfortune or anyone else in your predicament.

But I think one of the greatest surprises is that in the majority of cases one tends to regard wealthy people as

being " streetwise " - although we have seen clearly recently with the Bernard Madoff situation that this certainly isn't the case.

Immediately when I first heard about this card when it was first introduced, my subconscious mind asked the question

"it sounds like an interesting concept but why would a need all the money up front if all they are doing is

providing a service "? I think Thailand Elite would have been so much more credible and successful

if they had just levied an annual subscription which would have at least indicated they had genuine intent to provide their services

on a continual basis for the long-term.

I am curious-did you have any doubts about this scheme even for just a second?

[ozvenison]

BTW... I was asked if I would be available to talk to Bangkok Post as a 'happy' member on Friday evening and agreed... Bangkok Post did not contact me... Like doggie888888 says, maybe people are unhappy that TE is still going and they missed out on all the benefits for all these years...

[doggie888888]

doggie I don't " LAUGH and TAKE PLEASURE " at your misfortune or anyone else in your predicament.

But I think one of the greatest surprises is that in the majority of cases one tends to regard wealthy people as

being " streetwise " - although we have seen clearly recently with the Bernard Madoff situation that this certainly isn't the case.

Immediately when I first heard about this card when it was first introduced, my subconscious mind asked the question

"it sounds like an interesting concept but why would a need all the money up front if all they are doing is

providing a service "? I think Thailand Elite would have been so much more credible and successful

if they had just levied an annual subscription which would have at least indicated they had genuine intent to provide their services

on a continual basis for the long-term.

I am curious-did you have any doubts about this scheme even for just a second?

Hi Midas, you are one of the few with sensible input into this TE affair so my commetns about laughing at others' misfortunes is not directed at you :-)

I guess not all wealthy people are streetwise, it is just not possible.

Coming back to TE, I personally did not view it as an investment decision. I am fully aware that this is Thailand, laws maybe of little help should a foreigner lose his money, laws change, as do Thai governments, TE is not operating in a legislative environment where corporate governance is best practice and really there was no underlying TANGIBLE asset of value owned by Thailand Elite Corp. Consequently, I viewed it as an expenditure or a lifestyle spend becasue certainly there are better places (and vehicles) for me to make serious investments OTHER than in Thailand. Of course I had doubts (and plenty of it) and my thought process was: can I afford to lose the thb 1mil and if so how will it affect me?

Of course I'd not be happy at TE folding up, but I was not relying on it to make money or appreciate in value. So for a 5 year visa, my expense was in fact thb200k per year. So yes I can afford it (as an expense) and it will affect me in the sense that I will spend less on some other unnecessary discretionary expenditure for those 5 years. And in 5 years, I'd be 50 so hello, retirement visa :-)

[njpski]

Okay, so another thinly disguised bit of Thaksin bashing. What about the guy who was born and educated elsewhere, let's go for his skeletons

[midas]

I

Coming back to TE, I personally did not view it as an investment decision. I am fully aware that this is Thailand, laws maybe of little help should a foreigner lose his money, laws change, as do Thai governments, TE is not operating in a legislative environment where corporate governance is best practice and really there was no underlying TANGIBLE asset of value owned by Thailand Elite Corp. Consequently, I viewed it as an expenditure or a lifestyle spend becasue certainly there are better places (and vehicles) for me to make serious investments OTHER than in Thailand. Of course I had doubts (and plenty of it) and my thought process was: can I afford to lose the thb 1mil and if so how will it affect me?

Of course I'd not be happy at TE folding up, but I was not relying on it to make money or appreciate in value. So for a 5 year visa, my expense was in fact thb200k per year. So yes I can afford it (as an expense) and it will affect me in the sense that I will spend less on some other unnecessary discretionary expenditure for those 5 years. And in 5 years, I'd be 50 so hello, retirement visa :-)

That's why I hope TE members don't drop the ball on this issue if Abhisit's Government try to wash their hands of all this.

If they cannot afford to give everybody their money back - then THEY MUST change/vary

the law on a one off basis to somehow compensate for all this. They could and would do it if they were fearful enough of being embarrassed

and possibly prejudicing future international investment in this country on the basis you cannot do deals with the Government of the day because

you cant trust them.

For example they could if they wanted to " vary " the real estate

ownership laws by some form of " special regulation " - just on a one off basis just for those who in " good faith" invested

in the TE card.

[Lancelot]

All the Chinese who came as migrants in the last 100 years are now protecting their position

and do not want new migrants who might challenge them.

I think this post is right on target. The chinese immigrants to Thailand pretty much own the country and they will expand their trade with China. And why not? China is their neighbor and a rising economic and military power.

I have a grudging respect for chinese immigrants not only in Thailand but world wide. In most cases they arrived with little or nothing, worked hard, saved, then invested their income and inceased their wealth by educatiing their children.

If the chinese can do it, why not other nationalities? I guess the first step is desire and a willingness to work hard and forgo the latest mobile or fashion accesory

[richard_smith237]

As of August 1st 09 there are 22 Golf Courses in Total (see below). There are also some 57 Spa's.

The 5 year Visa remains unchanged. Fast track through the airport remains unchanged. Airport Limo is now a Camry (was a BMW 740 Li).

Medical insurance has been removed (Most expats already have their own).

In light of the recent bad press due to a Government Audit at which time the TE assets and many of the services were frozen I'll be happily satisfied if the program continues as it is.

Current list of Courses:

The Unico Grande Golf Club.

Summit Windmill Golf Club.

Green Valley Country Club.

Muang Kaew Golf Course

St.Andrerws 2000

Rayong Green Valley Country Club

Bangpra Golf Club

Laemchabang International Country Club

Pattana Sports Club

Chiangmai Highland Golf and Spa Resort

Summit Green Valley Chiangmai Golf Club

Santiburi Country Club Chiangrai

Dynasty Golf and Country Club

Krisda City Golf Hill

Royal Gems Golf & Sports Club, The

Mission Hills Kanchanaburi Golf Resort

Evergreen Hills Golf Club & Resort

Palm Hills Golf Resort and Country Club

Springfield Royal Country Club

The Imperial Lakeview Hotel and Golf Club

Royal Samui Golf and Country Club

Mission Hill Phuket Golf Resort & Spa

There are also some 57 Spa's

[Oberkommando]

As a good friend once told me, "I'd rather know I can buy 10 of these Elite cards than actually own one."

[mrtoad]

Okay, so another thinly disguised bit of Thaksin bashing. What about the guy who was born and educated elsewhere, let's go for his skeletons

I think it's against forum rules.

[norwayeagle]

As a good friend once told me, "I'd rather know I can buy 10 of these Elite cards than actually own one."

[chmike]

i agree with groucho marx:

i would never join a club that would have someone like me

for a member

No, that was Woody Allen`s quote from the film, Annie Hall.

Wrong, Sassienie... Barry is correct. Woody Allen was paraphrasing and plagiarizing Groucho in Annie Hall. The original Groucho Marx qoute ist "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members". http://www.watchfuleye.com/groucho.html

[ozvenison]

didnt woody allen marry a 16 yo? I would'nt want him as a member of TE either

[Ga-gai]

The best thing to do about the mess, would be to skip all the golf and other costly stuff and just let the card holders enter and stay in the country in a much easier way than the normal visitor. IE they bought a VIP lane for visas.

[richard_smith237]

The best thing to do about the mess, would be to skip all the golf and other costly stuff and just let the card holders enter and stay in the country in a much easier way than the normal visitor. IE they bought a VIP lane for visas.

Golf is the primary reason many of us bought the card. While we (Card holders I know) are not depending on the continued Thai Elite golf package we are certainly hoping it continues as per the original contract.

[doggie888888]

As a good friend once told me, "I'd rather know I can buy 10 of these Elite cards than actually own one."

Spoken like people with visa-envy ...and in relation to visas, mine is definitely longer than yours or your friend's.

[Screws]

"Mr Udom said he had cut down the company's costs for this year to 200 million baht. This has angered card holders as a number of premium leisure services and venues have been removed. The membership contract carries a clause that the company "reserves the right to change, revise, or withdraw the service without advance notice"."

"without advance notice" might be imagined by some to imply "without compensation"

It does not.

[richard_smith237]

"Mr Udom said he had cut down the company's costs for this year to 200 million baht. This has angered card holders as a number of premium leisure services and venues have been removed. The membership contract carries a clause that the company "reserves the right to change, revise, or withdraw the service without advance notice"."

"without advance notice" might be imagined by some to imply "without compensation"

It does not.

Correct – In fact last month the use of most of the services (golf courses and spa’s) had been frozen while government were carrying out their audit.

This was very annoying and quite disrespectful of the members but identifies the typical ‘no action is the best action’ attitude of many Thai’s when something doesn’t really affect them. The lack of information flowing to the members has been quite annoying.

Since the audit Thai Elite have circulated a letter identifying the updated list of services. Better late than never but the program has been heavily embarrassed and by now is surely void of any consumer confidence.

The new effect for me is that one of the golf courses I used to play regularly (Lake wood) is missing from the lst, and the BMW to the airport is now a Camry.

From my point of view as of 1st August the program continues as normal. For how long is anyone’s guess, but it’s too late for me, I’ll admit I made a mistake by having confidence in a program such as this which asks for money up front.

In 4 years time I am still hoping I’ll be able to post on Thai Visa.com and tell everyone that I have recovered my money and that any remaining privileges I use are free.

[chmike]

While all of the posts on this thread suggesting that the way to salvage the TE program is by dispensing with the frivolities (golf, spas, chauffer, etc.) and adding more legal rights (long-term visas, property ownership) may seem sensible, what is being suggested actually has very little to do with the Elite card itself. What is being advocated is really just a change in both immigration and land laws that would allow you to circumvent the laws currently in place by paying a negotiated fee.

Right or wrong, the laws in Thailand regarding visa requirements for extended residence and prohibiting most foreign ownership of freehold land were put in place for a reason. If you don't think that the powers-that-be in Thailand haven't already considered (and rejected) the idea of simply charging foreigners a lot more money for a long-stay visa if they don't otherwise qualify for one, or allowing foreign ownership of land, but levying a hefty "tax" on these purchases, think again.

If anything, the current trend in Thailand is going the opposite way. They have eliminated the "investment" visa, raised the income requirements for retirement visas, become sticter on the interpertation of the condo act and ownership of land by Thai females with non-Thai spouses. I don't think we're going to see a 360 on this mindset, simply for a few hundred million Baht in extra "fees". Thailand wants less foreign residents, not more. Whether that is fair or makes economic sense is beside the point.

And besides, most of the people on this board who are saying that they think an elite card that gives additional visa an land benefits is agood idea would be screaming bloody murder and discrimination if it were worded differently. Lets say it was announced that foreigners married to Thais could purchase one rai, but would be subject to a one million Baht transfer fee. Or, for those who don't meet the requirement of a one-year "O" or "B" visa that your other option was to purchase a visa for 100K THB. Do you really think most of the posters in this forum would consider that progress?

[Oberkommando]

As a good friend once told me, "I'd rather know I can buy 10 of these Elite cards than actually own one."

Spoken like people with visa-envy ...and in relation to visas, mine is definitely longer than yours or your friend's.

Oh look, it's one of the 'I'm a better expat than you' brigade.

I am on a multiple entry Non-Immigrant B and have been for 10+years now. No envy here. I also have a work permit so I can come and go as I dam_n well please.

And you paid 1 million THB for your visa, while I paid A$220 for mine.

Just too funny.

[midas]

I don't own a card but I just think TE members shouldn't waste the opportunity to group together

now to start discussing possible legal strategy.

Even if the fine print it says "reserves the right to change, revise, or withdraw the service without advance notice"

surely this has to be within a reasonable tolerance.

If you consider all the so called " features " that have been eliminated or reduced since the card began,

this is misrepresentation by stealth ? Remember them saying you would be able to own land

until the truth came out as to who the " actual owners " would be

Even if everyone hired the best lawyers in Bangkok just to issue a formal warning to the relevant parties now

they are on notice for having gone too far by varying the original deal, at least you have planted your flag in the sand ?

I am not a lawyer but surely where a contract involves provision of features and services

and where the level of those services are withdrawn slowly bit by bit over a long period of time, eventually they will

diminish to a point where the original contract is no longer recognisable and has virtually become " frustrated " ?

[mca]

Oh so the Thai ELITE card doesn't actually make you a member of THE Thai Elite then? Some confusion there and maybe a bit of sales misrepresentation?

Yeah I was going to sign up until I realized that it wouldn't allow me to land encroach in Kow Yai National Park, shoot cops dead in pubs with no penalty or hold my own military coup when I felt like it and make my mates head of EGAT and Thai Airways.

"Elite" my arse!

[Benjie]

I'm sure most of the members signed up and paid money because they didn't want to have hassles in Thailand. I'm sure they aren't going to want to spend loads of time setting up and thinking about a court case.

[richard_smith237]

As a good friend once told me, "I'd rather know I can buy 10 of these Elite cards than actually own one."

Spoken like people with visa-envy ...and in relation to visas, mine is definitely longer than yours or your friend's.

Oh look, it's one of the 'I'm a better expat than you' brigade.

I am on a multiple entry Non-Immigrant B and have been for 10+years now. No envy here. I also have a work permit so I can come and go as I dam_n well please.

And you paid 1 million THB for your visa, while I paid A$220 for mine.

Just too funny.

I doubt he paid B1000,000 just for the visa. How much do people pay for their golf ?

A B1500 course played once per week works out at B78,000 per year.

A B2500 course played twice per week works out at B260,000 per year.

This is just an idea of the savings offered by the program when looking at Golf alone, then there is the spa. The Visa is a bonus feature which creates a great convenience of not having to go the Consulate at home, or the immigration office in Bangkok every 6 months, year or 15 months etc, not having to ensure that your Thai bank account is always topped up to the correct amount.

As mentioned, some people are on a work permits (and I know some who are on a work permit and still joined Thai Elite for the golf benefits) - but there are many others who are young (i.e. 20's / 30's / 40's) not of retirement age, who do not work here but have sufficient funds to join this membership. And the previous poster is correct - The Special Entry Visa with a life of 5 years is the longest option out there unless you are going for PR status.

There is no argument about whether or not TE membership is worth it, it clearly is. The underlying factor is the lack of confidence in the board / government to ensure that the program is run correctly and continues to do so according to the terms of contract.

[SNGLIFE]

While all of the posts on this thread suggesting that the way to salvage the TE program is by dispensing with the frivolities (golf, spas, chauffer, etc.) and adding more legal rights (long-term visas, property ownership) may seem sensible, what is being suggested actually has very little to do with the Elite card itself. What is being advocated is really just a change in both immigration and land laws that would allow you to circumvent the laws currently in place by paying a negotiated fee.

Right or wrong, the laws in Thailand regarding visa requirements for extended residence and prohibiting most foreign ownership of freehold land were put in place for a reason. If you don't think that the powers-that-be in Thailand haven't already considered (and rejected) the idea of simply charging foreigners a lot more money for a long-stay visa if they don't otherwise qualify for one, or allowing foreign ownership of land, but levying a hefty "tax" on these purchases, think again.

If anything, the current trend in Thailand is going the opposite way. They have eliminated the "investment" visa, raised the income requirements for retirement visas, become sticter on the interpertation of the condo act and ownership of land by Thai females with non-Thai spouses. I don't think we're going to see a 360 on this mindset, simply for a few hundred million Baht in extra "fees". Thailand wants less foreign residents, not more. Whether that is fair or makes economic sense is beside the point.

And besides, most of the people on this board who are saying that they think an elite card that gives additional visa an land benefits is agood idea would be screaming bloody murder and discrimination if it were worded differently. Lets say it was announced that foreigners married to Thais could purchase one rai, but would be subject to a one million Baht transfer fee. Or, for those who don't meet the requirement of a one-year "O" or "B" visa that your other option was to purchase a visa for 100K THB. Do you really think most of the posters in this forum would consider that progress?

Pay THB 1M to OWN 1 rai outright? There would be a swarm of people taking up that offer! It would be worked into the sales/purchase price. Much, much better than the current requirement to have US$1M sit in a Thai bank. Purchase a visa for THB 100k? hel_l yeah to that, too. Much, much less than travel costs for visa runs.

Edited July 27, 2009 by SNGLIFE

[torrenova]

I looked at this a few times and as under 40 years old, the main benefit was the visa. At the time I owned businesses but did not work and did not want to jump through more hoops for another work permit. I stupidly missed the investment visa or to be more precise, I didn't think it would be withdrawn as there seemed no reason to do so In fact, I viewed the issuance of non immigrant visas as so hit and miss that I could find myself being denied for one reason or another. That made the Elite Card worth investigating.

The land ownership was attractive but when it was going to be routed through a company owned by someone or whoever, it seemed that you could lose your land at the whim of a corrupt official and Thailand certainly had a lot of them ! So land ownership fell by the wayside.

I wasn't living in Bangkok so some benefits were of no use. Neither did I play golf but had an interest in starting. I do like spas and I would certainly have used those.

I calculated my annual visa costs based on a non immigrant visa at somewhere around Bt100,000. Thus, I would have to receive 10 years of benefits to break even as I would use the spas etc. only because they were free. I guessed that on that basis, I would be ahead, before I could get a retirement visa. Where it fell down though was that I can easily generate more than 10% per annum and thus, I can keep my million and pay for the benefits. I would lose only the time taken to renew a visa. In the end, it was a non starter as it just didn't make sense.

[hardy1943]

As the saying goes "A fool and his money are easily parted".

What did these people think? That in the nation that is but a Banana Republic known for cheap blow jobs you could purchase elitism??

Great. I LOVE IT

[norwayeagle]

As a good friend once told me, "I'd rather know I can buy 10 of these Elite cards than actually own one."

Spoken like people with visa-envy ...and in relation to visas, mine is definitely longer than yours or your friend's.

Oyeah?

Who says? "simon"