Purchasing Of Land For My Thai Children.

[wackysleet]

With due regard to recent statements from land offices/ government agencies etc; and being a farang, hopefully I will be leaving Thailand soon, after my divorce, I have two daughters with my Thai wife and I would like to buy them land for their future security, so has anyone any knowledge as to the legality of this move bearing in mind the situation vis a vis thai wife farang husband purchasing land in wifes name.

[NanLaew]

Assuming your children have dual nationality, maybe you should consider buying them some land in your home country where I am sure it can all be done legally with lawyers you trust, in a language you understand and with no ambiguities.

Land in Thailand can only be registered in a Thai persons name if they are (I think) 18 and older. Sure you could set up all sorts of legal trusts here, with wills and affidavits, etc. However, can you realistically trust them to be legally binding at some point in Thailand's future where current land ownership by Thai (spouses of foreigners) is being actively questioned?

[Harcourt]

Assuming your children have dual nationality, maybe you should consider buying them some land in your home country where I am sure it can all be done legally with lawyers you trust, in a language you understand and with no ambiguities.

Land in Thailand can only be registered in a Thai persons name if they are (I think) 18 and older. Sure you could set up all sorts of legal trusts here, with wills and affidavits, etc. However, can you realistically trust them to be legally binding at some point in Thailand's future where current land ownership by Thai (spouses of foreigners) is being actively questioned?

How old are the girls now?

How acrimonious is the divorce? (personal question, sorry....no need to answer but it could have a bearing on the advice you get.

NanLaew makes alot of sense. Land in your own country will probably be less area per dollar but will continue to have that relative value. A trust fund established in your own country seems to me to be the best bet.

[wackysleet]

Assuming your children have dual nationality, maybe you should consider buying them some land in your home country where I am sure it can all be done legally with lawyers you trust, in a language you understand and with no ambiguities.

Land in Thailand can only be registered in a Thai persons name if they are (I think) 18 and older. Sure you could set up all sorts of legal trusts here, with wills and affidavits, etc. However, can you realistically trust them to be legally binding at some point in Thailand's future where current land ownership by Thai (spouses of foreigners) is being actively questioned?

How old are the girls now?

How acrimonious is the divorce? (personal question, sorry....no need to answer but it could have a bearing on the advice you get.

NanLaew makes alot of sense. Land in your own country will probably be less area per dollar but will continue to have that relative value. A trust fund established in your own country seems to me to be the best bet.

It's not really acrimonious, it's just that I've had enough of this country, my eldest will be 18 next month and the youngest is 8, both say they wish to stay here so I have to look to see what is the best investment for their future whether it's money in the bank or some other project.

[chiangmaibruce]

Refer to prior threads on this issue:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Puting-Kid-s-Name-t78581.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Land-Title-Minors-t153985.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ownership-La...rs-t107953.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Minimum-Age-...ty-t132483.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Buy-Land-Sons-s-t138746.html

Assuming your children have dual nationality, maybe you should consider buying them some land in your home country where I am sure it can all be done legally with lawyers you trust, in a language you understand and with no ambiguities.

Not a bad idea & well worth considering

Land in Thailand can only be registered in a Thai persons name if they are (I think) 18 and older.

It is possible for land to be held in the name of a child who is a Thai citizen. Section 1577 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code states:

A person may transfer by legacy or gift a property to a minor, subject to its being managed, up to the time of majority, by a person other than the person exercising parental power. Such manager must be named by the transferor, or, in default, by the court, and his management shall be subject to section 56 section 57 and section 60

[Harcourt]

You have to keep in mind that you are doing this for your girls' future (and good on you for that); No matter what country you live in, putting land or money into a teenager's name is asking for trouble and wastage. Teenagers are the same everywhere..... Unless you put it into a trust, she could sell it and blow the proceeds on a cool car or her boyfriend's whim, for example. not to mention bow down to family pressure because "Uncle needs the money for something 'important'."

A carefully crafted trust will better ensure any conditions you like, for example land can not be sold except for xyz situations. Consider education. Consider all eventualitues.

[chiangmaibruce]

Just like each and every method of working with or around the Thai property ownership laws, this particular option does have a number of real and potential downside risks.

These are spelt out in my forthcoming book (and I think some are mentioned in the prior TV threads)

Certainly one of these risks or issues is the question of what happens to the property when the minor is no longer a minor

[Harcourt]

Just like each and every method of working with or around the Thai property ownership laws, this particular option does have a number of real and potential downside risks.

These are spelt out in my forthcoming book (and I think some are mentioned in the prior TV threads)

Certainly one of these risks or issues is the question of what happens to the property when the minor is no longer a minor

Which particular option? Since your book is not published yet, you could elaborate.

p.s I hope you can let me know when your book comes out.

[verydumbubba]

Dont rush this - you will be back soon to visit, party etc.

Get with a good lawyer or law society - set up a trust, make out a will, etc, et al,

Make sure your 'will' is executable in LOS

Bubba

BTW - my ex managed to encumber my boy's (plural) future by borrowing against their trusts - in the US!!

Who invented the M word?!

[Harcourt]

"....my ex managed to encumber my boy's (plural) future by borrowing against their trusts - in the US!!..."

That's outrageous! Just goes to show that trusts should be very cleverly crafted.

[wackysleet]

Dont rush this - you will be back soon to visit, party etc.

Get with a good lawyer or law society - set up a trust, make out a will, etc, et al,

Make sure your 'will' is executable in LOS

Bubba

BTW - my ex managed to encumber my boy's (plural) future by borrowing against their trusts - in the US!!

Who invented the M word?!

Not likely that I'll be back as I've had a gutful of the place, anyway as you can see from the posts already and by your own experiences it's not that easy to safeguard their money and what with some inept lawyers not to mention the unscrupulous ones plus greedy members of some families I wondered if anyone had sorted this out.

[givenall]

Assuming your children have dual nationality, maybe you should consider buying them some land in your home country where I am sure it can all be done legally with lawyers you trust, in a language you understand and with no ambiguities.

Land in Thailand can only be registered in a Thai persons name if they are (I think) 18 and older. Sure you could set up all sorts of legal trusts here, with wills and affidavits, etc. However, can you realistically trust them to be legally binding at some point in Thailand's future where current land ownership by Thai (spouses of foreigners) is being actively questioned?

buying the land in farang country is a lot better idea and more secure. especially with the legal and economic situation. beside i would not trust to leave any property, money over here if you are not her to manage them

[chuckd]

If you decide to buy the land in LOS, you can put it in your child's name.

I registered the house in Pattaya in my daughter's name when she was 11 years old. No problem whatsoever at the land office. In fact some of them congratulated her on her good fortune.

She can do nothing with the property until she is 20 years old. By the same token, I can also do nothing with the property without court approval. I cannot sell it nor can I legally borrow against the chanote.

Hopefully when she reaches 20 years old, she will be mature enough to handle the property properly.

[wackysleet]

If you decide to buy the land in LOS, you can put it in your child's name.

I registered the house in Pattaya in my daughter's name when she was 11 years old. No problem whatsoever at the land office. In fact some of them congratulated her on her good fortune.

She can do nothing with the property until she is 20 years old. By the same token, I can also do nothing with the property without court approval. I cannot sell it nor can I legally borrow against the chanote.

Hopefully when she reaches 20 years old, she will be mature enough to handle the property properly.

Thanks, thats what I was hoping for, someone that has done something similar.

[Chunkton]

I bought a house in my 10 year old's name. Pretty much can't do a thing with it till she turns 20, but don't wish to anyway. If she plays games she could be cut off from the real money back home.

For you put it in their dual names, that way can't be sold till the younger one reaches age, also they will have to agree about it.

[NanLaew]

^ Smart option. Since one of the OP's siblings is of legal age, then there's no need to worry about misappropriation in absentia and waiting another 10 years for the younger one to come of age lends further security. Good luck with gift!

And I appreciate being corrected on the age for ownership by the posters here. I had a senior moment when I posted my erroneous statement as I do recall being told that it's legal but the land or property cannot be developed or transacted until the minimum age is reached. I was considering similar options last year but they are still on a back-burner.

[thaiwanderer]

AFAIK in my limited understanding Trusts are not recognised by Thai law?

IIRC children can own land and a controller can be appointed to manage it on their behalf (restrictions apply)?

[zzaa09]

It's not really acrimonious, it's just that I've had enough of this country, my eldest will be 18 next month and the youngest is 8, both say they wish to stay here so I have to look to see what is the best investment for their future whether it's money in the bank or some other project.

Better yet, why don't you set up an growth investment trust in their names instead of concerning yourself with the land complications. For their futire endeavours, financial liquidity would be more practical......college, business, marriage, etc.

[MJP]

AFAIK in my limited understanding Trusts are not recognised by Thai law?

IIRC children can own land and a controller can be appointed to manage it on their behalf (restrictions apply)?

Having researched this subject, that is correct, no such thing as trusts in Thailand. Or trust for that matter.

Same situation as the OP. I did the transfer this morning, all land managed by Mother-in-Law for daughter. She's having a new Will drawn up as well.

I still get usufruct on the house, they have agreed the expensive land is sold top of the next market cycle in time for kids higher education. Unlike the OP, I'm quite happy here so won't be going anywhere except for contract work.

Now all I have to do is fend off the neighbours ugly 32 year old daughter and all is well. Anyone got a bl00dy great big stick?

[chiangmaibruce]

And I appreciate being corrected on the age for ownership by the posters here. I had a senior moment when I posted my erroneous statement as I do recall being told that it's legal but the land or property cannot be developed or transacted until the minimum age is reached. I was considering similar options last year but they are still on a back-burner.

It's entirely understandable that you (or anyone else) might be confused about this matter as different staff in different land dept offices have been known to advise:

* you can't put property in the name of a minor

* you can put property in the name of a minor provided thay are 16

* you can put property in the name of the minor provided they are old enough to sign and understand the nature of the transaction

* you can put property in the name of a minor of any age (as per the law)

[chiangmaibruce]

Just like each and every method of working with or around the Thai property ownership laws, this particular option does have a number of real and potential downside risks.

Which particular option? Since your book is not published yet, you could elaborate.

The option of buying property in the name of a minor OR transferring land already owned into the name of a minor & OK ... see my following post

p.s I hope you can let me know when your book comes out.

I will do

[chiangmaibruce]

OK, so what are some of the issues with having land in the name of a minor. Some issues have already been mentioned, I'll mention a couple of others very briefly, and then others can add some more.

Firstly, sibling equity. One poster has more than one child already and plans to put it in joint names. More commonly though the arrangement is done after the birth of a first child. So you put it in the name of the first child then subsequently have more - which may or may not have been planned. Are you willing and able to then buy land of equal value to place in the name of the second child? third child? If not then the eldest child has future (and then actual) control of a significant asset that the other siblings don't. Effect of relationship between the siblings? And when the eldest comes of age ... no obligation to share with the others ... could take out loans agaist it and gamble etc etc.

OR

assuming they choose to do the right thing ... but the other sibling/s want to cash out and move elsewhere ... the eldest is unlikely to have the cash to pay them out. Again scope for potential conflict arises

Security for foreigner parent. Perhaps an issue in the event of a later falling out when the child becomes of age, and perhaps you might want to not entirely step out of the picture to ensure the inheritance is not squandered. One poster has mentioned getting a usufruct against the land. This will ensure he can theoretically continue to use the property, and may discourage the sale of the property once the minor comes of age (as others may not want to buy a property so encumbered). This is a good idea but only do-able if the land is owned is first owned by the Thai spouse, the usufruct or lease is set up, and then the land transferred to the minor. While there may be exceptions (and which might be later overturned in court) generally a minor can't enter into a contract ... meaning you can't buy the land in the minor's name and then set up the usufruct. Various issues here. Worst case scenario - Thai wife refuses to sign over the title to the minor & you have already signed a statement saying the property was her personal property and not marital property.

[wackysleet]

OK, so what are some of the issues with having land in the name of a minor. Some issues have already been mentioned, I'll mention a couple of others very briefly, and then others can add some more.

Firstly, sibling equity. One poster has more than one child already and plans to put it in joint names. More commonly though the arrangement is done after the birth of a first child. So you put it in the name of the first child then subsequently have more - which may or may not have been planned. Are you willing and able to then buy land of equal value to place in the name of the second child? third child? If not then the eldest child has future (and then actual) control of a significant asset that the other siblings don't. Effect of relationship between the siblings? And when the eldest comes of age ... no obligation to share with the others ... could take out loans agaist it and gamble etc etc.

OR

assuming they choose to do the right thing ... but the other sibling/s want to cash out and move elsewhere ... the eldest is unlikely to have the cash to pay them out. Again scope for potential conflict arises

Security for foreigner parent. Perhaps an issue in the event of a later falling out when the child becomes of age, and perhaps you might want to not entirely step out of the picture to ensure the inheritance is not squandered. One poster has mentioned getting a usufruct against the land. This will ensure he can theoretically continue to use the property, and may discourage the sale of the property once the minor comes of age (as others may not want to buy a property so encumbered). This is a good idea but only do-able if the land is owned is first owned by the Thai spouse, the usufruct or lease is set up, and then the land transferred to the minor. While there may be exceptions (and which might be later overturned in court) generally a minor can't enter into a contract ... meaning you can't buy the land in the minor's name and then set up the usufruct. Various issues here. Worst case scenario - Thai wife refuses to sign over the title to the minor & you have already signed a statement saying the property was her personal property and not marital property.

[wackysleet]

OK, so what are some of the issues with having land in the name of a minor. Some issues have already been mentioned, I'll mention a couple of others very briefly, and then others can add some more.

Firstly, sibling equity. One poster has more than one child already and plans to put it in joint names. More commonly though the arrangement is done after the birth of a first child. So you put it in the name of the first child then subsequently have more - which may or may not have been planned. Are you willing and able to then buy land of equal value to place in the name of the second child? third child? If not then the eldest child has future (and then actual) control of a significant asset that the other siblings don't. Effect of relationship between the siblings? And when the eldest comes of age ... no obligation to share with the others ... could take out loans agaist it and gamble etc etc.

OR

assuming they choose to do the right thing ... but the other sibling/s want to cash out and move elsewhere ... the eldest is unlikely to have the cash to pay them out. Again scope for potential conflict arises

Security for foreigner parent. Perhaps an issue in the event of a later falling out when the child becomes of age, and perhaps you might want to not entirely step out of the picture to ensure the inheritance is not squandered. One poster has mentioned getting a usufruct against the land. This will ensure he can theoretically continue to use the property, and may discourage the sale of the property once the minor comes of age (as others may not want to buy a property so encumbered). This is a good idea but only do-able if the land is owned is first owned by the Thai spouse, the usufruct or lease is set up, and then the land transferred to the minor. While there may be exceptions (and which might be later overturned in court) generally a minor can't enter into a contract ... meaning you can't buy the land in the minor's name and then set up the usufruct. Various issues here. Worst case scenario - Thai wife refuses to sign over the title to the minor & you have already signed a statement saying the property was her personal property and not marital property.

I fully understand the pitfalls you mention and the worse case scenario, always a possibility when large sums are involved, property of course was only one consideration there must be others, both children will get the same amount and what I would like to happen is that they do not have access to it until they are 25yrs old,{another daughter from previous marriage got her money at 18yrs and blew it on some bloody lowlife} at least being 25 they may have got a real slant on life. .

[chiangmaibruce]

Some issues to consider - continued

If the child dies. In Thailand Wills cannot be prepared by anyone under 15 years of age, therefore should a child die then the asset will be distributed under Thai law (refer to thailawonline.com or similar web site for details of what that involves). Generally your Thai wife and possibly family will get a share of the property. Assuming you are alive at that time then you may receive a share - which you will have to subsequently sell/transfer to a Thai (within 12 months)

If you want to build on the property. As per usufruct or lease, if you need to obtain a building permit then you would need to do this while the property was owned by an adult. Again this probably means buying the property in the name of a Thai spouse and then later transferring to the name of the minor child (presumably after the house was built)

Edited July 27, 2009 by chiangmaibruce

[Livinginexile]

Why don't you keep the money in trust?

Invest it and then portion it out when the girls are old enough!

There are too many ways the girls mother can get her hands on it, just wait my friend.

Sorry to say this but it sounds like you are trying to pay off your feelings of guilt. You say you will never return to LoS, are you just going to leave your children behind and hope for the best for them?