Chinese In Northern Thailand Or Around?

[Cobrabiker]

During the old days, there are many chinese who fled from china and resided in Burma Laos and Thailand. Many of them have blended into their residing communities, and their decendents have since lost their chinese culture. But some of these chinese have formed their own communities and still maintain their own strong chinese culture, and are still able to speak chinese, besides Mae Salong, I would like to know if anyone knows of these so called "chinese village" in thailand or the surrounding countries? And which area exactly? Any informative input will be very much appreciated. (Will be visiting these places soon)

[zzaa09]

During the old days, there are many chinese who fled from china and resided in Burma Laos and Thailand. Many of them have blended into their residing communities, and their decendents have since lost their chinese culture. But some of these chinese have formed their own communities and still maintain their own strong chinese culture, and are still able to speak chinese, besides Mae Salong, I would like to know if anyone knows of these so called "chinese village" in thailand or the surrounding countries? And which area exactly? Any informative input will be very much appreciated. (Will be visiting these places soon)

Historic Chinese immigration into Siam/Thailand is a fascinating camera. I've known quite a circle of 2nd and 3rd generation Southern Chinese that have largely settled and easily integrated with Thai. My first wife, Thai Yai/Chinese/Lao, and her lineage come directly from Yunnan. Quite difficult to distinuish the cultural differences these day {in the north} as most have multi-intergrated with a number of traditional cultures here and there.

[sunholidaysun1]

There are many villages around that are Thai Chinese . Doi Mae Salong there are a few villages but in Doi Wah Wee which is about 100km from Chiang Rai city , there are again quite a few . Two villages Hoi Kra and Hoi Krai there are many Chinese on the road to Doi Wah Wee . Half way to Chang Mai is a town called Mae Suay , that is the village you must get to first , then take the road into the mountains of Doi Wah Wee.

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks sunholidaysun1, I will check out Mae Suay, does everybody speak mandarin in this village? I have also heard that Chiang Khong has chinese village too, and also across the border to Laos, there are chinese village in Laos too, well I haven't been to all these places myself, do you have any ideas about these places?

[zzaa09]

Thanks sunholidaysun1, I will check out Mae Suay, does everybody speak mandarin in this village? I have also heard that Chiang Khong has chinese village too, and also across the border to Laos, there are chinese village in Laos too, well I haven't been to all these places myself, do you have any ideas about these places?

One shouldn't equate a Han-Mandarin as it relates to these regional peoples, as most have a heritage from 'non-Manadrin' sectors of China. If one explored the liguistic demographic for China proper, you'll find that easily 35% of spoken/understood languages are not Chinese mainstream.

[brahmburgers]

You could re-write the subtitle to read: has anyone NOT seen Chinese all around?

Seriously though, there's at least one Kuanamatang (I forget how to pronounce/spell it) village up in the hill tribe area about 40 Km west of Chiang Rai. One of my good buddies is from there, a tall sweet fellow who speaks quite good English. They're descendents of Chiang Kai Chek's people who were too far west to make the hop over to Taiwan (then Formosa). So they split SW over to Thailand.

Too bad us farang can't do something like that - just commandeer a little valley somewhere and live peacefully ever after. Heck, the Thai Imm Dept would be flipping out and sending the brown shirts out in a frenzy. Now if we could just go to Michael Jackson's plastic surgeon and all get face jobs to make us look Asian, we could get away with it. Just a thought.

Edited July 28, 2009 by brahmburgers

[toybits]

I believe you are referring to the Nationalist Chinese that fled Southern China after they were defeated by the communist Chinese in 1949 and early 1950s. These are known in Chiang Rai as the Koumintang or KMT. Locals usually refer to them as Chin Haw.

These were elements of the 92nd and 93rd Nationalist Chinese Army. The group that settled in Mae Salong were led by General Tuan Shee Woun (spelled is as closely as I could). There is a memorial museum dedicated to him at Mae Salong (or Santi Khiri).

Before coming (encroaching - actually) into Thailand, the 93rd Army occupied a part of Burma. They were pushed back by the Burmese Army and so they were on the run again. They crossed into Thailand somewhere near Thaton and worked their way up to Mae Salong. Back then, there were no roads going to Mae Salong. So it was difficult for even the Thai Army to approach Mae Salong and confront an army of 12 thousand Chinese soldiers.

A sort of modus vivendi was given to them. How this was given is something that I do not want to discuss publicly. Google it if you want more information. Elements of the 93rd. Army "volunteered" to fight against Thai communist insurgents at Khao Kor in Petchabun province. Somehow, this earned the KMT their "right" to live in Thailand.

Many of them intermarried with tribal people - such as Akha and Lahu. Their descendants speak Chinese. I know many tribal people that have been able to find work in Taiwan because of their ability to speak Chinese.

Hope this helps.

[BlueSmurf]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

[T_Dog]

Cobrabiker.... Looks like you are getting some good info.... If you go to Mae Salong, check out "The Little Home Bungalow" right in the middle of town, just above the big bend in the road. The owner's dad was a KMT soldier, and he speaks excellent English. Nice place to stay too. Also, we have run into 70 year old KMT originals in Doi Angkhan village as well, still speaking Mandarin around the warming fires on cold evenings.

[klikster]

A Thai States Attorney, formerly of Chiang Rai, told me he went to school in Lom Sak and it was one of very few places in Thailand where the curriculum was in Chinese.

[sunholidaysun1]

Not sure of the name or the right directions BUT on the road from Mae Chan to Chang Saen there is a Chinese Temple , with the biggest sitting Chinese Budha out side of China. There are also 200 Chinese Thai monks that stay there. They have a school to teach the younger monks as well as a restaurant to feed them all . It is fantastic to sit inside the temple and listen to them chanting .They welcome anyone who goes there. As far as I know they are funded from Taiwan and mainland China.

The Chinese that I know from Doi Wah Wee are decendants from Yunnan.

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks everybody for your contribution, I know these are the descendents of the KMT, but more importantly, I would like to know the remaining KMT descendents that still uphold their chinese roots and still be able to communicate in madarin (which is spoken chinese), if you can pinpoint to me a specific area, it will be more helpful.

[Cobrabiker]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

Hi Davidwright, can you tell me more about this place and also where is this Puchee Faa, is this in chiang rai? And do these people speak chinese?

[BlueSmurf]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

Hi Davidwright, can you tell me more about this place and also where is this Puchee Faa, is this in chiang rai? And do these people speak chinese?

Its amphur teurng(not sure about the spelling)..Due west of chiang rai about 60 to 90 mins drive, on the border..If you google Puchee faa you should get all the info you need..Sorry Puchee Faa is the name of a mountain where you can on a clear day look down into Lao and see the Mekong river.It really is amazing and has beautiful sun sets and rises..In the winter months Nov. Dec. Jan. it can get down to freezing up there..The road to the top hits a T-junction , if you turn left and keep going for about 40 mins you will come to a Chinese village (the road ends) where we stopped to enjoy the views and have some tea..The residents are Chin Haw and came from China the same time as the Chinese in Mai salong..I found this place by accident and really is stunning place.I will try to get more info..

All the best dave

[BlueSmurf]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

Hi Davidwright, can you tell me more about this place and also where is this Puchee Faa, is this in chiang rai? And do these people speak chinese?

Chin Haw speak there own version of manderin,South Chinese Chinese.Local dialect

[wanderingstraycat]

believe davidwright is referring to ดอยผาตั้ง Doi Pha Tang, nearer to Wiang Kaen than Thoeng? most of the KMT troops settled at Mae Salong, but some of them ended up at Doi Pha Tang, you can read about this at the 'wen2 shi2 guan3' (Chinese Martyrs Memorial Museum) in Mae Salong, though most of the info is in Chinese & Thai. supposed to be one of the places in Chiangrai to view sakura....seems like wherever you can find sakura in Chiangrai you will find them KMT descendants...met a guy from Pha Tang who should be in his late 20s or early 30s now, he can speak Mandarin, but that's a sample size of 1...

Phu Chi Fa - didn't encounter any Chinese there, mostly White Hmong.

Mae Salong...all the Chinese (& some of the Akha) there attend the Chinese school, so most of them speak & write Mandarin & watch Chinese channels on cable TV & Chinese karaoke DVDs. many have gone on to work in Taiwan, Malaysia & even for offices of Chinese companies in Vietnam. at home they speak their Yunnan dialect, esp to the older generation.

can't post URLs here, try Google search for thewanderingstraycat + names of places mentioned above - have written about my visits to the museum, Mae Salong, Phu Chi Fa & the Chinese school on my travelog.

[Cobrabiker]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

Hi Davidwright, can you tell me more about this place and also where is this Puchee Faa, is this in chiang rai? And do these people speak chinese?

Chin Haw speak there own version of manderin,South Chinese Chinese.Local dialect

Thanks for the info, but I am more interested in those villages that still speak the common chinese language, not their own dialect chinese

[Cobrabiker]

Hi wanderingstraycat, I have went into your blog, it is full of pictures, as if I am already there, very good blog, very interesting, for those interested, clink this link

http://thelittlestraycat.blogspot.com/

You have been to so many places over the years, furthermore I think you are also a chinese, perhaps you can tell me more about other chinese villages beside Mae Salong, that speak the common chinese language.

[hmj]

Baan Mae Aeb.

To go there from Chiang Saen town, take road 1129 towards Chiang Khong. Follow this road for about 15 km; at the junction with the permanent police check point turn South. It is another 20 km.

I do not know if they speak Yunanese but the village has a "Chinese atmosphere" and no tourism.

The road is tarred all the way to road 1098.

[PeaceBlondie]

The Yon people migrated from Yunnan and settled in Lamphun and Chiang Mai. They were still learning a dialect of Chinese 35 years ago. But it is probably not pure Mandarin.

[el jefe]

Due north from Chiang Dao is the KMT village of Nong Ook, aka Arunothai. However I'd stay away from there for a while. Supposedly the #1 Burmese druglord, who took over from Khun Sa, was chased across the border a couple of days ago into Thailand and is in now hiding out somewhere in the Nong Ook vicinity.

[zzaa09]

Not sure of the name or the right directions BUT on the road from Mae Chan to Chang Saen there is a Chinese Temple , with the biggest sitting Chinese Budha out side of China. There are also 200 Chinese Thai monks that stay there. They have a school to teach the younger monks as well as a restaurant to feed them all . It is fantastic to sit inside the temple and listen to them chanting .They welcome anyone who goes there. As far as I know they are funded from Taiwan and mainland China.

The Chinese that I know from Doi Wah Wee are decendants from Yunnan.

And then it could be argued that the good folks of Yunnan don't really consider themselves Chinese.

[Cobrabiker]

There are too many tribes in yunan and each speaks their own dialect, but the younger generation should be able to speak mandarin, as it is the universal language in china. There are just too many dialects in China, but most still be able to understand and speak mandarin.

[LaoPo]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

Hi Davidwright, can you tell me more about this place and also where is this Puchee Faa, is this in chiang rai? And do these people speak chinese?

Chin Haw speak there own version of manderin,South Chinese Chinese.Local dialect

Thanks for the info, but I am more interested in those villages that still speak the common chinese language, not their own dialect chinese

The common official -national- Chinese language (guó yǔ) is Mandarin since 1909 but it was renamed pǔ tōng huà (common speech) in 1955. The Chinese on Formosa, now Taiwan, preferred to keep calling the Mandarin language as guó yǔ (national language).

The point is that there are many versions of Mandarin spoken throughout China, but these are usually classified as dialects which is not completely the truth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "common Chinese language" still spoken by Chinese in some villages in Northern Thailand.

If they are descents from the Kuomintang who (mainly) fled to Formosa/Taiwan than they probably speak the Mandarin language (or variation of the same), common in those days in the party/army of Sun-Yat-sen who died in 1925 and his successor Chiang Kai-shek. The present villagers will most likely speak the kind of Mandarin their parents and grandparents spoke during that era up to 1949 when the Kuomintang followers fled to Taiwan. As of today the Chinese in Taiwan speak Mandarin.

But if there are now Chinese schools in some cities/villages they'll probably teach their students the official Mandarin language which is taught in every single school on the mainland and Taiwan as well, not the "dialect" Mandarin from their ancestors.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

There are too many tribes in yunan and each speaks their own dialect, but the younger generation should be able to speak mandarin, as it is the universal language in china.

There are just too many dialects in China, but most still be able to understand and speak mandarin.

I have to correct you; that's true with the young(er) generations but not the elderly.

They might be able to understand (some) Mandarin but certainly are not able to speak it. There are still many millions of them who do NOT speak Mandarin.

But, that will fade away and within 25 years from now everyone will speak, read and write Mandarin or pǔ tōng huà.

LaoPo

[ThaiBasil]

If you go to Puchee faa and a little way past there is a Chinese village with the same chinese group as live in Doi Mae salong.Chin Haw...A lovely place to go , beautiful views on the very edge of the Thai /lao border..Must go again myself.

Have a great trip..

Hi Davidwright, can you tell me more about this place and also where is this Puchee Faa, is this in chiang rai? And do these people speak chinese?

Its amphur teurng(not sure about the spelling)..Due west of chiang rai about 60 to 90 mins drive, on the border..If you google Puchee faa you should get all the info you need..Sorry Puchee Faa is the name of a mountain where you can on a clear day look down into Lao and see the Mekong river.It really is amazing and has beautiful sun sets and rises..In the winter months Nov. Dec. Jan. it can get down to freezing up there..The road to the top hits a T-junction , if you turn left and keep going for about 40 mins you will come to a Chinese village (the road ends) where we stopped to enjoy the views and have some tea..The residents are Chin Haw and came from China the same time as the Chinese in Mai salong..I found this place by accident and really is stunning place.I will try to get more info..

All the best dave

Some roads signs say: Thoeng!!

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks Lao Po for correcting me, btw, do you know of or spotted any chinese village? And also like to thank tiptip for the correct pronunciation, does it have a road name written in English "Thoeng"?

[wanderingstraycat]

Hi wanderingstraycat, I have went into your blog, it is full of pictures, as if I am already there, very good blog, very interesting, for those interested, clink this link

(can't post without deleting the URL you've posted)

You have been to so many places over the years, furthermore I think you are also a chinese, perhaps you can tell me more about other chinese villages beside Mae Salong, that speak the common chinese language.

perhaps you might find it easier to refer to thewanderingstraycat dot blogspot dot com, the travel-related posts are reproduced there. Laos-related ones cross-posted on laomeow dot blogspot dot com. many readers have complained that it's too confusing to hunt for travel info on the main one that you've linked above

can't think of other Chinese villages elsewhere in Chiangrai apart from those already mentioned. most of my time in Chiangrai is spent together with Akha & Lahu. but you could always ask around in Mae Salong.

if you drop by Baan Bua GH in Chiangrai town, ask the lady boss (Tim? not sure how to spell her name) if she knows how to contact a former employee called Jong. you can ask him about Chinese in Phatang.

road signs, bus station signs etc spell it as 'Thoeng'. that's the standard system of romanisation.

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks wonderingstraycat, what about other areas besides Chiang Rai? Like Chiang Khong? Any chinese village there?

[wanderingstraycat]

Thanks wonderingstraycat, what about other areas besides Chiang Rai? Like Chiang Khong? Any chinese village there?

sorry i don't know. as i've said, most of the Chiangrai villages i've spent time in are Akha & Lahu.

but this map marks a few Chinese villages in the area just west of Chiangrai town & on the south bank of Mae Kok (the hotsprings marked there is Huay Mak Liam i think):

www.akhahill.com/12publiction.htm

only been on a quick trip to that hotsprings so not familiar with that area.

hope this helps.