Urgent Help/advice In Law/property Management Needed

[backsoon]

Beat the drums, hoist the colours! See you in Court...

You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be the lunatic we're looking for?

Imagine: You live happily in a highrise condo. Enjoy your views. Sunbake, swim, play snooker, go to gym/sauna, even tennis court... Total bliss! ... Than one day you accidently discover that Juristic Person cum Building Management KNOWINGLY allowed hundreds of people (Thais, Farang, women, kids, elderly) live without ANY FIRE PROTECTION!!!. And this situation was allowed to continue FOR YEARS!!!... Remember the fire in Pattaya? The deaths? Was it an accident? My condo is over 20 stories,- go figure...

How can you help. Any constructive advice as to my case. Any tips as to applicable thai law and where to find them. Any references to similar cases in the past, if any. Any references to size of compensation. etc, etc, etc.

Please, do not: Tell me I'm an idiot. I know this. Tell me I shouldn't have bought a condo in Thailand. I did. Mention once again TIT. I know where I am. Send me smiles from LOS.

Thank you for help and advice.

P.S. If you live in a highrise, check who is Managing the Property. The name of the company is '*****' and apparently they are pretty big. I have reasons to believe our condo is not an exceptional case...

[bkkjames]

Beat the drums, hoist the colours! See you in Court...

You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be the lunatic we're looking for?

Imagine: You live happily in a highrise condo. Enjoy your views. Sunbake, swim, play snooker, go to gym/sauna, even tennis court... Total bliss! ... Than one day you accidently discover that Juristic Person cum Building Management KNOWINGLY allowed hundreds of people (Thais, Farang, women, kids, elderly) live without ANY FIRE PROTECTION!!!. And this situation was allowed to continue FOR YEARS!!!... Remember the fire in Pattaya? The deaths? Was it an accident? My condo is over 20 stories,- go figure...

How can you help. Any constructive advice as to my case. Any tips as to applicable thai law and where to find them. Any references to similar cases in the past, if any. Any references to size of compensation. etc, etc, etc.

Please, do not: Tell me I'm an idiot. I know this. Tell me I shouldn't have bought a condo in Thailand. I did. Mention once again TIT. I know where I am. Send me smiles from LOS.

Thank you for help and advice.

P.S. If you live in a highrise, check who is Managing the Property. The name of the company is '*****' and apparently they are pretty big. I have reasons to believe our condo is not an exceptional case...

Mate post this in the property forum - lots of self proclaimed property experts in there. jk

[Serpico]

I believe a fire drill is mandatory and documented.

You should look into a professional fire drill company to evaluate the system.

[quiksilva]

Can you go into more detail please?

What do you mean, exactly by no fire protection?

No sprinklers? No Fire hose? Extinguishers? No alarm system? No pressurised emergency stair well? No Fire drills?

Also how old is the building? If it was built before the regulations came into effect, then they are not forced to comply with it.

Good practice dictates that they should but as with all things it will boil down to cost (although that's what sinking funds are for)

Remember too, that ultimately the decision makers are the committee, and not the property manager, who can only recommend that certain jobs be carried out, and suggest how they should be achieved, but for the most part (especially involving large expenses) do not press the green button themselves.

[thaiwanderer]

How can you help. Any constructive advice as to my case. Any tips as to applicable thai law and where to find them. Any references to similar cases in the past, if any. Any references to size of compensation. etc, etc, etc.

You don't know the applicable law and regulations so cannot know exactly if and how in breach, and if lacking required protection should that not be the immediate aim rather than 'compensation'.

You also fail to appreciate the neither the juristic person or manager (they are not the same thing) is entirely at arms length from you and the other co-owners.

Have you paid for fire protection and if so how much and for what?

[dave111223]

Beat the drums, hoist the colours! See you in Court...

You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be the lunatic we're looking for?

Imagine: You live happily in a highrise condo. Enjoy your views. Sunbake, swim, play snooker, go to gym/sauna, even tennis court... Total bliss! ... Than one day you accidently discover that Juristic Person cum Building Management KNOWINGLY allowed hundreds of people (Thais, Farang, women, kids, elderly) live without ANY FIRE PROTECTION!!!. And this situation was allowed to continue FOR YEARS!!!... Remember the fire in Pattaya? The deaths? Was it an accident? My condo is over 20 stories,- go figure...

How can you help. Any constructive advice as to my case. Any tips as to applicable thai law and where to find them. Any references to similar cases in the past, if any. Any references to size of compensation. etc, etc, etc.

Please, do not: Tell me I'm an idiot. I know this. Tell me I shouldn't have bought a condo in Thailand. I did. Mention once again TIT. I know where I am. Send me smiles from LOS.

Thank you for help and advice.

P.S. If you live in a highrise, check who is Managing the Property. The name of the company is '*****' and apparently they are pretty big. I have reasons to believe our condo is not an exceptional case...

You are joking right?

If you lobbied hard enough you could probably get your fellow co-owners to invest in some sprinklers/extinguishers.

But get compensation...

You'd essentially be suing the building...which is infact yourself, and your fellow co-owners... talk about sh*tting where you eat... What kind of reaction do you think you're going to get when your neighbors find out a good chunk of their monthly service charge is going to legal fees to defend against the lawsuit you've bought against the building?

As for the Juristic Person, they are just an employee.

P.S. If you specifically paid the management company to install or maintain fire equipment, and they just didn't do it, then obviously this is a different story, and you'd probably have a case. But it doesn't seem like this is the situation?

Edited August 5, 2009 by dave111223

[richm7]

Beat the drums, hoist the colours! See you in Court...

You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be the lunatic we're looking for?

Imagine: You live happily in a highrise condo. Enjoy your views. Sunbake, swim, play snooker, go to gym/sauna, even tennis court... Total bliss! ... Than one day you accidently discover that Juristic Person cum Building Management KNOWINGLY allowed hundreds of people (Thais, Farang, women, kids, elderly) live without ANY FIRE PROTECTION!!!. And this situation was allowed to continue FOR YEARS!!!... Remember the fire in Pattaya? The deaths? Was it an accident? My condo is over 20 stories,- go figure...

How can you help. Any constructive advice as to my case. Any tips as to applicable thai law and where to find them. Any references to similar cases in the past, if any. Any references to size of compensation. etc, etc, etc.

Please, do not: Tell me I'm an idiot. I know this. Tell me I shouldn't have bought a condo in Thailand. I did. Mention once again TIT. I know where I am. Send me smiles from LOS.

Thank you for help and advice.

P.S. If you live in a highrise, check who is Managing the Property. The name of the company is '*****' and apparently they are pretty big. I have reasons to believe our condo is not an exceptional case...

You are joking right?

If you lobbied hard enough you could probably get your fellow co-owners to invest in some sprinklers/extinguishers.

But get compensation...

You'd essentially be suing the building...which is infact yourself, and your fellow co-owners... talk about sh*tting where you eat... What kind of reaction do you think you're going to get when your neighbors find out a good chunk of their monthly service charge is going to legal fees to defend against the lawsuit you've bought against the building?

As for the Juristic Person, they are just an employee.

P.S. If you specifically paid the management company to install or maintain fire equipment, and they just didn't do it, then obviously this is a different story, and you'd probably have a case. But it doesn't seem like this is the situation?

Spot on. Still no idea what the OP means by "Fire Protection" but whatever it is, as a co-owner, the solution is in his hands. It is quite possible that the Condo Board would have a case against the Management Company depending on the circumstances but you have to ask yourselves whether it is worth the trouble & cost to sue them. I suspect not.

My experience with all of them (does that get me around the "naming" restriction!) is that they are next to worthless. The best you'll get is if you live in a building that's new and was built by them or their parent company. Otherwise the term "tits on a bull" springs to mind.

Go self managed and put a farang in charge. Save yourselves a huge monthly charge for having one of the***** companies plonk a twit at the front office to do sweet FA all day long. Then things will happen. Also look at the CAM fees. Many buildings simply don't charge enough especially as they start to get older so if you need to spend a chunk on stairwell pressurization, for example, you'll end up pulling it from the sinking fund and not be able to replace it. If there is enough IN the sinking fund, of course.

BTW, knocking condo's in BKK is a sport on this forum but the truth is that Condo's & CAM fees are a global issue. Nobody likes paying them and good management is hard to find. Good luck, because you are going to need it.

[trogers]

High-rise buildings completed in the 80s do follow the local fire code back then. But the first high-rise buildings in Thailand were erected in the late 70s (Indra Hotel and Chokchai Bldg), thus the local code back then was rudimentary - ventilated fire stairs and hose reels and extinguishers.

If the co-owners of old condo buildings want to upgrade their fire detection and fighting system to present code, all you need is money and time. Get 50% of the co-owners to pass a resolution to collect the money for the upgrade. Cost may be in the tens of thousands to over 100k per owner. Good luck.

Edited August 31, 2009 by trogers

[hhgz]

"You'd essentially be suing the building...which is infact yourself, and your fellow co-owners... talk about sh*tting where you eat... What kind of reaction do you think you're going to get when your neighbors find out a good chunk of their monthly service charge is going to legal fees to defend against the lawsuit you've bought against the building?"

The building is a business entity, and can be sued by a co-owner, or by visitor who slips and falls in the lobby. It does not matter. The building has an insurance policy that is paid for by the collective monthly service charge, and the payout will be from the insurance company, not individual co-owners.

[thaiwanderer]

"You'd essentially be suing the building...which is infact yourself, and your fellow co-owners... talk about sh*tting where you eat... What kind of reaction do you think you're going to get when your neighbors find out a good chunk of their monthly service charge is going to legal fees to defend against the lawsuit you've bought against the building?"

The building is a business entity, and can be sued by a co-owner, or by visitor who slips and falls in the lobby. It does not matter. The building has an insurance policy that is paid for by the collective monthly service charge, and the payout will be from the insurance company, not individual co-owners.

Should / may have insurance perhaps, but remember the reason he wants to sue in the first place.

[dave111223]

The building is a business entity, and can be sued by a co-owner, or by visitor who slips and falls in the lobby. It does not matter. The building has an insurance policy that is paid for by the collective monthly service charge, and the payout will be from the insurance company, not individual co-owners.

If the building did have said insurance don't you think the premiums would go up after the building had been sued and insurance had to pay out? Who do you think is going to have to fit the bill for the higher premiums?

Do you think the condo committee would be unaware of the law suit (and impending increased insurance costs)? And that this information would not be spread through the building quickly?

At the very least i would not imagine too many elevator doors being held open for the OP.

Edited September 4, 2009 by dave111223