Birth Certificate Nightmare

[mnbcm]

My wife immigrated to the U.S. and became a legally naturalized citizen. We have since moved back to Thailand. About a month ago, my wife crossed into Burma with me on a visa run and had trouble with immigration because they said her birth date on their computer didn't match her Thai passport. She showed them her Thai ID card and driver's license and they let her through. She has had the same birth date her entire living memory and every legal document shows this. Come to find out, the Amphur had made a mistake in the household registration book when she was a kid (abbreviation for Feb. and Sept. is similar in Thai script). Rather than go through the hassle of fixing it, her father claims the Amphur had him just continue to use the wrong date since most of her legal documents already reflected the wrong date and make a handwritten change to the birth certificate. We just checked and the Amphur does not have her original birth certificate, but they have a copy that is different from the one her father gave us when we were going through the immigration process. There was no reason to question it since it had the date she's used her whole life. There was never a reason for the U.S. embassy to question it when she first applied for a visa because all her legal documents matched it.

For whatever reason, when her father was updating his household registration book earlier this year, they noticed the problem and changed her birth date! Now, all of her legal documents in Thailand are changing to this new birth date which is now different than her U.S. naturalization certificate, passport, and marriage license. What a mess! We've exhausted our options to keep them from changing her birth date. The best they would do for us is to draft a legal document stating that they made the change to the household registration book. I spent 4 days at the Amphur trying to get someone to write this because the change in the household registration book looks very suspicious (handwritten change with a pen and a tiny stamp). I highly doubt we could ever prove that the Amphur ever suggested not making the change 25 years ago. Our mistake was not going to the Amphur on our own years ago to get the birth certificate ourself instead of using her father's copy. Then we could have gotten all of her Thai documents changed to match the birth certificate. Now it's way too late for that. So, if you're still reading this, my question for you is, dare we try to change her documents in the U.S. to this new birth date? Surely they will yell fraud no matter what proof I give them. Should we leave "well enough alone"? We've already found that changing her name in Thailand will not be a problem despite the old birth date on our marriage license. I foresee border problems when entering the U.S. next time. Thoughts? I've lost many nights of sleep mulling over all of this.

Edited July 30, 2009 by mnbcm

[lopburi3]

As I understand it you expect a problem due to two passport with different date of birth? That could be a problem I expect with the new computer systems being used for travel documents. If it is only a case of home register/Thai ID card it is a lot less likely to become an issue I would think.

I do not believe there would be any fraud concern as you have found an error and are trying to correct it. The US Embassy is well aware things like this happen. As you seem to have made the choice to live in Thailand I would try to get it corrected.

[colino]

My wife had a similar problem with her ID card, a few years ago she went and renewed it the guy at the Amphur,

added an A in front of her first name she didn't notice the mistake until later.

When we returned to the Amphur and tried to correct the mistake we saw the same guy, he refused to except that he had made a mistake, We showed him her books, DL, Passport, every bit of official paper work we had.

He just kept scanning her ID card and said look her name A----, It was a bit like Little Britain the computer says no.

At one point he even said her passport name was wrong ??

Then after about a hour he just got up and went to lunch, we asked to see the boss and was told go to another Amphur and they will sort it out,

So that's what we did but it was a real pain traveling to BKK and waiting 3 hours to get it changed which took about 5 minutes.

Sometimes this place drives me nuts

Colino

[mnbcm]

My wife had a similar problem with her ID card, a few years ago she went and renewed it the guy at the Amphur,

added an A in front of her first name she didn't notice the mistake until later.

When we returned to the Amphur and tried to correct the mistake we saw the same guy, he refused to except that he had made a mistake, We showed him her books, DL, Passport, every bit of official paper work we had.

He just kept scanning her ID card and said look her name A----, It was a bit like Little Britain the computer says no.

At one point he even said her passport name was wrong ??

Then after about a hour he just got up and went to lunch, we asked to see the boss and was told go to another Amphur and they will sort it out,

So that's what we did but it was a real pain traveling to BKK and waiting 3 hours to get it changed which took about 5 minutes.

Sometimes this place drives me nuts

Colino

haha, oh I feel much better. I used to think a couple hours in a government office was bad. We spent over 18 hours waiting in an Amphur over the course of 4 days last week just to try to fix it. I counted over 125 people waiting each day I went and was subject to the "sorry, time for lunch" line on two of the days. My favorite story was when a lady pretended to look for a document in a stack of printer paper while looking out of the corner of her eye to ensure I was watching her put some effort into our problem. Oh the joy of beaureaucracy. My wife jokes that it's just continuation of dowry.

Edited July 30, 2009 by mnbcm

[mnbcm]

I do not believe there would be any fraud concern as you have found an error and are trying to correct it.

That would be the logical thing to believe, but after helping my life through the entire naturalization process, I've learned to prepare for the worst. When it comes to immigration, you are always made to feel guilty until proven innocent.

[moonhunt]

I do not believe there would be any fraud concern as you have found an error and are trying to correct it.

That would be the logical thing to believe, but after helping my life through the entire naturalization process, I've learned to prepare for the worst. When it comes to immigration, you are always made to feel guilty until proven innocent.

Have official letter from Amphur to explain the situation. Such as... "Amphur clerk found mistake from official record, and corrected it based on their discretion."

Make sure that it is stamped and/or sealed, and translated/certified.

With that, you can request to correct all the record in the U.S.

I guess that's the price to pay for maintaining dual citizenship.

Probably if you want to make it easy from Amphur officer, you may need some tea money for them to swallow their ego not to admit their fault.

Edited July 30, 2009 by moonhunt

[TerryLH]

There shouldn't be any problem with the USA. She should just show her US Passport when exiting and entering there. There should be no reason for them to look at her Thai passport.

Just in case, carry a copy of the letter saying they changed the info in the house registration book.

My wife also has two birth dates. She thinks that entitles her to two birthdays, parties, presents etc. Each time one of the dates comes around I tell her I celebrate the other date.

As you can see from the responses to this topic - this is apparently a fairly common mistake here.

[lopburi3]

I believe the new computer systems match up pax departure and arrivals in the search for terrorists and exit Thailand with a different birth date than entry US might well show up.

[TerryLH]

Point taken.

OP, why don't you take your wife and all paperwork to the US Embassy (or consulate in CM) and explain the problem to them. They should be able to give you some advice regarding this problem.

Good luck.

[mnbcm]

Thank you for your posts. I am leaning towards not changing anything in the U.S. but I'm going to get the embassy's opinion after we change all her Thai documents to this new date.

I'll post an update later on our situation for anyone else that has similar issues in the future. Thanks again!

[sassienie]

Simple answer is to apply for a non (o) immigrant visa as married to a Thai wife or a non (o) immigrant visa based on retirement if you are 50 or older.

Being an expat rather than a holiday maker is the better option and save yourself all the hassle.

[lopburi3]

Simple answer is to apply for a non (o) immigrant visa as married to a Thai wife or a non (o) immigrant visa based on retirement if you are 50 or older.

Being an expat rather than a holiday maker is the better option and save yourself all the hassle.

This thread is about having two date of births for Thai wife - nothing to do with his visa status that I can recall.

[Pollyjoy]

Leave well alone or get the house reg changed to the correct date of birth.. No Need to bother about different coutries and dates that differ. Also you can go to the umper and insist on seeing the Nai Umper He should put things right for you once you have explained things. I assume you speak Thai well enough to do this... Good Luck

[wrecker]

Although the US authorities will understand that it is incompetence on the Thai side and that long ago everything was written by hand and some Thai officials were not able to read the Thai numbers properly (I assume there lays the problem) I would rather forget about my Thai passport than my American passport. It is even a bigger headache than when you end up with a stolen Identity. Do not bother to change anything just forget about it. The legal documents will work out not to be that legal because than you have to go to the mills of the ministry of foreign affairs and a few other ministeries in Thailand.

This happens very often in certain societies in Western countries authorities often recreate a birthday themselves as half the village went to the authorities once or twice a year to register their children.

[pyphi]

My thai wife thai docks all --/--/XX

i have ask for birth certificate but now after twenty years i may leave it as it is Bitish embassyr don't worry they just put 0101 for dashes

My employer like to know as they send wifes a card and would not take don't know for an answer

good luck

regards pyphi

[OldenAtwoody]

My wife immigrated to the U.S. and became a legally naturalized citizen. We have since moved back to Thailand. About a month ago, my wife crossed into Burma with me on a visa run and had trouble with immigration because they said her birth date on their computer didn't match her Thai passport. She showed them her Thai ID card and driver's license and they let her through. She has had the same birth date her entire living memory and every legal document shows this. Come to find out, the Amphur had made a mistake in the household registration book when she was a kid (abbreviation for Feb. and Sept. is similar in Thai script). Rather than go through the hassle of fixing it, her father claims the Amphur had him just continue to use the wrong date since most of her legal documents already reflected the wrong date and make a handwritten change to the birth certificate. We just checked and the Amphur does not have her original birth certificate, but they have a copy that is different from the one her father gave us when we were going through the immigration process. There was no reason to question it since it had the date she's used her whole life. There was never a reason for the U.S. embassy to question it when she first applied for a visa because all her legal documents matched it.

For whatever reason, when her father was updating his household registration book earlier this year, they noticed the problem and changed her birth date! Now, all of her legal documents in Thailand are changing to this new birth date which is now different than her U.S. naturalization certificate, passport, and marriage license. What a mess! We've exhausted our options to keep them from changing her birth date. The best they would do for us is to draft a legal document stating that they made the change to the household registration book. I spent 4 days at the Amphur trying to get someone to write this because the change in the household registration book looks very suspicious (handwritten change with a pen and a tiny stamp). I highly doubt we could ever prove that the Amphur ever suggested not making the change 25 years ago. Our mistake was not going to the Amphur on our own years ago to get the birth certificate ourself instead of using her father's copy. Then we could have gotten all of her Thai documents changed to match the birth certificate. Now it's way too late for that. So, if you're still reading this, my question for you is, dare we try to change her documents in the U.S. to this new birth date? Surely they will yell fraud no matter what proof I give them. Should we leave "well enough alone"? We've already found that changing her name in Thailand will not be a problem despite the old birth date on our marriage license. I foresee border problems when entering the U.S. next time. Thoughts? I've lost many nights of sleep mulling over all of this.

Personally, I would go to the source - the Amphur - and find out what they determine her birthdate to be, then one-by-one, start changing all the dam_n Thai documents. It's got to be done. As a poster mentioned, in this day and age of Big Brother, you don't want her to be hassled EVERY trip from here to eternity. And it will happen... and it will get worse as time goes by. Right now it was a sharp-eyed guard, next time it will be computers and she’ll be on a no-fly list.

Next, once all the Thai documents are in agreement, I'd go to the US State Department. Immigration & Homeland Security or one or all, and start investigating changing her US record to reflect the Thai record. They may not care but it's worth a shot and you will not be called out as deficient if you ask.

Secondly, since you may have thought you were getting a Virgo and now have an Aquarius (or vice versa), I'd go back to her old man and ask for a refund or adjustment of the dowry. I’d also consult a knowledgeable priest and call in the local fortune teller. This is serious stuff. Astrology is critical to Thais, and Pops sold you a bill of goods.

At minimum, get a couple of those goats back.

[marsteele]

My wife had a similar problem with her ID card, a few years ago she went and renewed it the guy at the Amphur,

added an A in front of her first name she didn't notice the mistake until later.

When we returned to the Amphur and tried to correct the mistake we saw the same guy, he refused to except that he had made a mistake, We showed him her books, DL, Passport, every bit of official paper work we had.

He just kept scanning her ID card and said look her name A----, It was a bit like Little Britain the computer says no.

At one point he even said her passport name was wrong ??

Then after about a hour he just got up and went to lunch, we asked to see the boss and was told go to another Amphur and they will sort it out,

So that's what we did but it was a real pain traveling to BKK and waiting 3 hours to get it changed which took about 5 minutes.

Sometimes this place drives me nuts

Colino

What is it with thai's and lunch? I have noticed in a number of areas when dealing with them as soon as the clock strikes 12 everything stops and they just have lunch. This happens in the middle of business transactions they just walk off leave you standing there looking stupid and expect you to wait around until the return. What is wrong with finishing the transaction then go and eat.

[mnbcm]

Leave well alone or get the house reg changed to the correct date of birth.. No Need to bother about different coutries and dates that differ. Also you can go to the umper and insist on seeing the Nai Umper He should put things right for you once you have explained things. I assume you speak Thai well enough to do this... Good Luck

That's what we spent days doing to no avail.

[mnbcm]

Personally, I would go to the source - the Amphur - and find out what they determine her birthdate to be, then one-by-one, start changing all the dam_n Thai documents. It's got to be done. As a poster mentioned, in this day and age of Big Brother, you don't want her to be hassled EVERY trip from here to eternity. And it will happen... and it will get worse as time goes by. Right now it was a sharp-eyed guard, next time it will be computers and she'll be on a no-fly list.

Next, once all the Thai documents are in agreement, I'd go to the US State Department. Immigration & Homeland Security or one or all, and start investigating changing her US record to reflect the Thai record. They may not care but it's worth a shot and you will not be called out as deficient if you ask.

Secondly, since you may have thought you were getting a Virgo and now have an Aquarius (or vice versa), I'd go back to her old man and ask for a refund or adjustment of the dowry. I'd also consult a knowledgeable priest and call in the local fortune teller. This is serious stuff. Astrology is critical to Thais, and Pops sold you a bill of goods.

At minimum, get a couple of those goats back.

We have a certified letter from the Amphur stating that her birth date on the household registration has changed based on a copy of an old birth certificate they found. This certified document states it is to be used as proof that this change was made by them; not us. However, the different birth certificate we originally used still has a different date than the amphur and that is where the trouble could lead back to on the U.S end. We used a birth certificate, unknowningly, that had a hand written change either by her father or the amphur.

Anyway, it looks like changing all documents in Thailand isn't a big deal. Now the question is, do I approach USCIS to get a new naturalization certificate, or do I start with the State Department and try to get a new passport and ignore USCIS. In my years of experience dealing with both departments, the state department is far easier to deal with than USCIS. I think I'll inquire with the embassy and see what happens. If she can get a U.S. passport with the new date, that can serve as proof of birth and identity forever.

Edited August 9, 2009 by mnbcm