The Stock Market

[Abrak]

I find it interesting that just BEFORE I expect a substantial upmove - everybody - who posted - appears to be so bearish.

(But exact bottom not made yet).

Confucious say:

"Best bottoms are made when traditional chartists magic support-lines are broken".

No argument that you have sentiment on your side.

I would be interested to know what you mean by 'substantial upmove.' For a trader say 5-10% could be a 'substantial' upmove. Do you mean that you think we are about to see the 'lows' for the year and you see the market hitting new highs in its rally (not obviously all time highs.) Or are you more along the lines of oversold, overbearish 'bounce up a bit' time.

[ray23]

OK I have Asia Plus and access to charts there are there any other services available for the set?

[Parvis]

Yes - I do factor in what some call "manipulation" and I call keeping an orderly Market (Specialists used to do that "in the old days" on NYSE).

For instance - if Market goes up with futures in morning - is this manipulation?

The effect of it is that the Market starts selling off weakness from a higher level - and therefore "will settle" at a higher level than what would normally be the case. A "win win" situation - except off course for those who happen to be on the wrong side of the Market.

So - Badge is right - and so is Midas - a win win situation.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Parvis

[lannarebirth]

Yes - I do factor in what some call "manipulation" and I call keeping an orderly Market (Specialists used to do that "in the old days" on NYSE).

For instance - if Market goes up with futures in morning - is this manipulation?

The effect of it is that the Market starts selling off weakness from a higher level - and therefore "will settle" at a higher level than what would normally be the case. A "win win" situation - except off course for those who happen to be on the wrong side of the Market.

So - Badge is right - and so is Midas - a win win situation.

I'm betting that is not one of the 7 languages our Herr Naam speaks or the 12 he is somewhat familiar with, nor is it one of the 2 1/4 I speak.

[badge]

;)We've had this conversation before Midas, as I make a living trading financial markets, whether there is manipulation or not is irrelevant to me, I still have bills to pay, and whether tooth fairies exist or not doesnt change anything.On a personal basis I think you have to clarify what constitutes manipulation; GS' practices dont constitute manipulation by law, so what does? As Parvis notes, if someone with deep pockets buys futures to buoy cash stocks, is that manipulation? If I create numerous orders to give an order book a distinctly bullish or bearish bias, is that manipulation? If I place large market orders that clear out all bids and creates a 'flash crash', is that manipulation? I vote no on all 3 accounts.Occasionally there are clear cut cases(Hunt Bros. in AG etc) for which people are penalised. Day-to-day who knows what exactly is going on, so you can wet the bed about the bogey man, or get on with your life.

[badge]

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2474-Market-Manipulation-On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

[Parvis]

I find it interesting that just BEFORE I expect a substantial upmove - everybody - who posted - appears to be so bearish.

(But exact bottom not made yet).

Confucious say:

"Best bottoms are made when traditional chartists magic support-lines are broken".

No argument that you have sentiment on your side.

I would be interested to know what you mean by 'substantial upmove.' For a trader say 5-10% could be a 'substantial' upmove. Do you mean that you think we are about to see the 'lows' for the year and you see the market hitting new highs in its rally (not obviously all time highs.) Or are you more along the lines of oversold, overbearish 'bounce up a bit' time.

This depends on your definition of overbought and oversold. Perhaps - you may not have a "quantifiable" definition (and observable) for both conditions. Markets move from overbought to oversold (more exactly to "neutral") - a condition which is clearly visible IF you know what to look for. "Neutral" is a condition that very often coincides (but not always) with "support".

For instance - per my definition of "oversold" the Market was oversold on 6-29. The actual bottom for this present decline at which the Market became "neutral" - was on 7-01. Therefore - of course - the correct trade from 6-21(overbought) until 7-01(neutral) was down.

"Neutral" is for me the condition that needs to exist before "a bounce of any type" is possible.

This present "tradeable bounce" should lead us again to an "overbought condition" (per my definition) from which a tradeable decline is probable. This decline then is very likely to become the bottom of this downturn (so far an unquantifiable projection).

I do not "project" exact levels for the very reason that I do not rely on "resistance and support" to give me signals.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Parvis

[lannarebirth]

;)We've had this conversation before Midas, as I make a living trading financial markets, whether there is manipulation or not is irrelevant to me, I still have bills to pay, and whether tooth fairies exist or not doesnt change anything.On a personal basis I think you have to clarify what constitutes manipulation; GS' practices dont constitute manipulation by law, so what does? As Parvis notes, if someone with deep pockets buys futures to buoy cash stocks, is that manipulation? If I create numerous orders to give an order book a distinctly bullish or bearish bias, is that manipulation? If I place large market orders that clear out all bids and creates a 'flash crash', is that manipulation? I vote no on all 3 accounts.Occasionally there are clear cut cases(Hunt Bros. in AG etc) for which people are penalised. Day-to-day who knows what exactly is going on, so you can wet the bed about the bogey man, or get on with your life.

I manipulated the stock of a low volume biotech company once. Painted myself the most bullish chart patterns you ever did see. When it hit R₂ the market maker unleashed holy hel_l on me. Took me 8 months to get out of that jam. Live and learn. I'm a liquidity fiend now.

[badge]

I know someone who does what the joker in that last link I posted does, every trade. Its not the large orders that are algos, its the response; you place a large sell order, and algos respond by hitting the bid, you place a large buy order and algos respond by hitting the offer. Hes got it all backwards. I could decide to sell 2000 contracts, then decide not to, whos to say thats not true? Its the operators of the algos that respond to spoof orders that lose out, and you certainly wont hear them complaining

Theres certain markets where you can 'turn/job' algos all day. Unfortunately, because theres no volume on financial markets thesedays, anyone savvy enough to do so has to seek larger more liquid markets to do so on, such as ES futs, because as you say Lanna, if you get your spoof orders hit on some illiquid share/market - like if the algo operators come back after lunch and can see youve taken the p*** and theyre down $10k so hit your spoofs - your in trouble and they'll squeeze as hard as they can

Anyone bemoaning manipulation is a mushroom in my opinion - kept in the dark and fed s***

[sokal]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

Edited July 6, 2010 by sokal

[Parvis]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

I don't know what "scc regulations" are (Sacramento City College Regulations?) - but probably neither do you.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Parvis

[sokal]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

I don't know what "scc regulations" are (Sacramento City College Regulations?) - but probably neither do you.

typo, my bad.

who cares, The Netherlands are in the final, bring on the Krauts

[badge]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

Quite clearly I know better.

It is illegal to place orders that are not intended to be executed on most markets, its 'market abuse', however, sometimes I place orders, and then change my mind.

Please see earlier posts.

[sokal]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

Quite clearly I know better.

It is illegal to place orders that are not intended to be executed on most markets, its 'market abuse', however, sometimes I place orders, and then change my mind.

Please see earlier posts.

explain it to the judge, who knows

Go Holland

[Parvis]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

Quite clearly I know better.

It is illegal to place orders that are not intended to be executed on most markets, its 'market abuse', however, sometimes I place orders, and then change my mind.

Please see earlier posts.

explain it to the judge, who knows

Go Holland

There is a certain organization - called the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) who regulate trading of all financial Markets (including Commodities). If you are "in error" of SEC Regulations you can be fined - or your trading "priviledges" can be restricted - IF AND ONLY IF THEY CAN PROVE YOUR SPECIFIC ERRORS.

As Badge correctly points out - there are "Market Forces" which you will have to learn to deal with and accept (or better - understand) if you aim to make a living as Trader. Blaming "manipulators" on your lack of understanding will get you "0" results.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Parvis

[midas]

There is a certain organization - called the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) who regulate trading of all financial Markets. If you are "in error" of SEC Regulations you can be fined - or your trading "priviledges" can be restricted - IF AND ONLY IF THEY CAN PROVE YOUR SPECIFIC ERRORS.

As Badge correctly points out - there are "Market Forces" which you will have to learn to deal with and accept (or better - understand) if you aim to make a living as Trader. Blaming "manipulators" on your lack of understanding will get you "0" results.

" who regulate trading of all financial Markets " i.e. when they have time

and when they can take a break from surfing the net for pornography.

[lannarebirth]

There is a certain organization - called the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) who regulate trading of all financial Markets (including Commodities). If you are "in error" of SEC Regulations you can be fined - or your trading "priviledges" can be restricted - IF AND ONLY IF THEY CAN PROVE YOUR SPECIFIC ERRORS.

As Badge correctly points out - there are "Market Forces" which you will have to learn to deal with and accept (or better - understand) if you aim to make a living as Trader. Blaming "manipulators" on your lack of understanding will get you "0" results.

I expect you mean the CFTC.

http://www.cftc.gov/

[Parvis]

There is a certain organization - called the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) who regulate trading of all financial Markets (including Commodities). If you are "in error" of SEC Regulations you can be fined - or your trading "priviledges" can be restricted - IF AND ONLY IF THEY CAN PROVE YOUR SPECIFIC ERRORS.

As Badge correctly points out - there are "Market Forces" which you will have to learn to deal with and accept (or better - understand) if you aim to make a living as Trader. Blaming "manipulators" on your lack of understanding will get you "0" results.

I expect you mean the CFTC.

http://www.cftc.gov/

Yes - I should have said SEC and CFTC - since I included Commodities in brackets. But my previous "association" was with SEC - therefore more readily "on my tongue"..

Edited July 7, 2010 by Parvis

[zorro1]

http://market-ticker...On-Display.html

is this what you guys were refering to?

This guys hilarious; those trades are certainly put in by hand, not algos, its precisely what I offered as an example above(the 2nd example), hes got no idea. If he thinks these spoof orders are 'manipulation' he should grow up, its amazing that someone whos apparently been around the biz so long thinks its a new phenomenon! I suggest he reads Reminisces of a Stock Operator You would be very unlucky to get caught doing this, and even if you did you would merely get fined, or at worst banned from trading, so would have to do so by proxy.

Next.

So you know better then Denninger on this stuff ?

It is illegal, under scc regulation to place orders that are not intended to be executed.

Quite clearly I know better.

It is illegal to place orders that are not intended to be executed on most markets, its 'market abuse', however, sometimes I place orders, and then change my mind.

Please see earlier posts.

If the ASX actually enforced this law by having a no cancel for the day ( your locked in ) or at least a brokerage fee if you change your mind then we may actually have a 'fair market" this along with a total ban against algo trading may restore some faith. Also why is it I cannot place an order less than a certain percentage of the price spread yet the big boys can cap a stock with as low as 1 share?

Certainly I am open to manipulation of my own stock if I see weakness ie, stack the buy side just below where it wont get hit and then pull the orders if it slides. EVERYBODY does it and to think I actually left my orders in place in the beginning thinking it was illegal..

The ASX is out of control and is fast falling out of favour with genuine L/TERM investors whilst it continues to allow manipulation unchecked and Asic continues to ignore shonky directors/coys. All IMO

Edited July 7, 2010 by zorro1

[Abrak]

Certainly I am open to manipulation of my own stock if I see weakness ie, stack the buy side just below where it wont get hit and then pull the orders if it slides. EVERYBODY does it and to think I actually left my orders in place in the beginning thinking it was illegal..

What exactly do you mean by 'a price that wont get hit'. In my market you cant do that. And if you think you can put phony buy orders say two spreads below the bid 'so you wont get hit', if you trade against me, I will take you out in 'the blink of an eye'.

[jcon]

Certainly I am open to manipulation of my own stock if I see weakness ie, stack the buy side just below where it wont get hit and then pull the orders if it slides. EVERYBODY does it and to think I actually left my orders in place in the beginning thinking it was illegal..

Zorro I figured you for an amateur before but now I am certain. That move you mention above will get you run over. Anybody that sees the order book knows when it's Amateur Day, and big(ger) traders will just wreck you for the fun of it. What you're describing is just the piss-ant version of what goes on in the bigger markets, yes many people do it but people will just blow through the order book to a) make money, b ) mess with the other side, or c) both, preferably.

If you think you'll be able to ''pull the orders if it slides'' on a regular basis in tiny stocks - not a chance unless you're trading on a proprietary platform. Even if you were, it only works until it doesn't.

I'm not saying that people don't ''spoof,'' ''ghost,'' or ''phantom'' markets - because they do - I'm just saying that isn't a game for small-money traders to be playing.

The entire thing isn't really manipulation based on the simple example of Abrak's reply. It's just trading.

Sokal's comment about the (il)legality of placing orders not meant to be traded just doesn't apply to the real world - period. To think it does would be complete admission if ignorance as to how trading works. That, and basically all prop desks that trade Globex would be in jail if that were enforced. This is where midas says, "Exactly, jcon - maybe it should be enforced.'' Impossible. And I would say that it doesn't even matter in the long run, as there will always be somebody there to wreck those ''fake trade®s'' if they get out of line a la zorro vs. Abrak above.

[Abrak]

Certainly I am open to manipulation of my own stock if I see weakness ie, stack the buy side just below where it wont get hit and then pull the orders if it slides. EVERYBODY does it and to think I actually left my orders in place in the beginning thinking it was illegal..

Zorro I figured you for an amateur before but now I am certain. That move you mention above will get you run over. Anybody that sees the order book knows when it's Amateur Day, and big(ger) traders will just wreck you for the fun of it. What you're describing is just the piss-ant version of what goes on in the bigger markets, yes many people do it but people will just blow through the order book to a) make money, b ) mess with the other side, or c) both, preferably.

Actually, although my post might have implied I was a bit of 'big swinging dick' in terms of size, actually even if 'Zorro's' size is far larger than mine, I will still do the same.

The concept that he manipulates the price through phony orders and that 'EVERYBODY does it', logically means that nobody is fooled but him. And really the size of the bid is irrelevant.

Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Abrak

[zorro1]

Certainly I am open to manipulation of my own stock if I see weakness ie, stack the buy side just below where it wont get hit and then pull the orders if it slides. EVERYBODY does it and to think I actually left my orders in place in the beginning thinking it was illegal..

Zorro I figured you for an amateur before but now I am certain. That move you mention above will get you run over. Anybody that sees the order book knows when it's Amateur Day, and big(ger) traders will just wreck you for the fun of it. What you're describing is just the piss-ant version of what goes on in the bigger markets, yes many people do it but people will just blow through the order book to a) make money, b ) mess with the other side, or c) both, preferably.

Actually, although my post might have implied I was a bit of 'big swinging dick' in terms of size, actually even if 'Zorro's' size is far larger than mine, I will still do the same.

The concept that he manipulates the price through phony orders and that 'EVERYBODY does it', logically means that nobody is fooled but him. And really the size of the bid is irrelevant.

Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets.

[zorro1]

Works for me particularly illiquid stock on a big down day. Load the stack and pull it all 1 min before open. Watch the panic..

Also works well in extreme volatility such as the recent elders sell down. Stocks are propped or capped all day every day by placing large orders a few pips up or down. Why on earth is this amateurish? you guys have me baffled. Im not suggesting IM a market mover although I have helped shake a tree or 2

I simply join the pack when the opportunity arises to help prop my share in a rally or help make the liquidity disappear if a stock i like bounces to hard. The trick is NOT to get hit. Have made biggest gains by joining the manipulators when opportunity arises. You cant beat em join them. obviously its not going to work with bhp Not sure why I need to explain this??

I only trade penny stock

Its not my primary system of trading of course just a tool to use when available. You guys certainly blew that out of context. Amateur? Call me what you like , I still killed the pig while the experts top gun pros mostly issued warnings. Just read the first page of the thread a few posters here were still selling or shorting. Good luck tomorrow all pros and amateurs

Edited July 7, 2010 by zorro1

[Parvis]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Parvis

[lannarebirth]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

Oh c'mon. It's niot a matter of being smart enough, it just doesn't work over the long haul. Even if it works for you 3 times in a row, the fourth might blow you up.

Here's something I DO still do. I'll often place a HUGE order WAAAAY below the market with no intention of executing it. I like to let the market know that if they'd just fill that gap then the upleg may resume, with my blessing. I'm short of course during this exercise. My feeling is the market doesn't care about my private and pitiful machinations, but it makes me feel good.

Edited July 7, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Parvis]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

Oh c'mon. It's niot a matter of being smart enough, it just doesn't work over the long haul. Even if it works for you 3 times in a row, the fourth might blow you up.

Here's something I DO still do. I'll often place a HUGE order WAAAAY below the market with no intention of executing it. I like to let the market know that if they'd just fill that gap then the upleg may resume, with my blessing. I'm short of course during this exercise. My feeling is the market doesn't care about my private and pitiful machinations, but it makes me feel good.

Not only does it not work over the long haul - it is also unethical - but I was not refering to you.

In your case - if you need something to make you feel good - "get a hold of yourself".

Edited July 7, 2010 by Parvis

[zorro1]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

I use to send emails to ASX in early days. Asking them things like 'why is my stock sold down by one share everyday? Its CLEARLY manipulated, Doesn't matter what counter bid I offer its automatically recalculated to close by one share?

have watched my stock go from 15c to 10c . ASX does NOTHING and has a standard reply email. The markets are ethical? please spare me... Have seen stocks capped until most stops triggered and margins called. EXT was a spectacular example collapsing from $5 to $2 in one day on no news before flying to $11. MANIPULATED!

Market takes no prisoners. I have learned along with the rest of the pack that a large order pulled as a critical support is about to be hit can and often does collapse the s/p making for a nice bounce. I have been stung many times playing by the rules. What rules?? its a joke. The problem are the BIG boys and the ASX`has a vested interest and needs them more than us. I dont see a solution when the ASX is the problem!

[Parvis]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

I use to send emails to ASX in early days. Asking them things like 'why is my stock sold down by one share everyday? Its CLEARLY manipulated, Doesn't matter what counter bid I offer its automatically recalculated to close by one share?

have watched my stock go from 15c to 10c . ASX does NOTHING and has a standard reply email. The markets are ethical? please spare me... Have seen stocks capped until most stops triggered and margins called. EXT was a spectacular example collapsing from $5 to $2 in one day on no news before flying to $11. MANIPULATED!

Market takes no prisoners. I have learned along with the rest of the pack that a large order pulled as a critical support is about to be hit can and often does collapse the s/p making for a nice bounce. I have been stung many times playing by the rules. What rules?? its a joke. The problem are the BIG boys and the ASX`has a vested interest and needs them more than us. I dont see a solution when the ASX is the problem!

[zorro1]

"Ultimately if you are smart enough to manipulate markets and make money, then it is far easier to make money without manipulating markets."

Naah - he isn't smart enough to make money without manipulating the Stock - but he is unethical enough to take pride in being part of the problem - rather than being part of the solution.

I use to send emails to ASX in early days. Asking them things like 'why is my stock sold down by one share everyday? Its CLEARLY manipulated, Doesn't matter what counter bid I offer its automatically recalculated to close by one share?

have watched my stock go from 15c to 10c . ASX does NOTHING and has a standard reply email. The markets are ethical? please spare me... Have seen stocks capped until most stops triggered and margins called. EXT was a spectacular example collapsing from $5 to $2 in one day on no news before flying to $11. MANIPULATED!

Market takes no prisoners. I have learned along with the rest of the pack that a large order pulled as a critical support is about to be hit can and often does collapse the s/p making for a nice bounce. I have been stung many times playing by the rules. What rules?? its a joke. The problem are the BIG boys and the ASX`has a vested interest and needs them more than us. I dont see a solution when the ASX is the problem!