'tough' Citizenship Test Outlined

[apetley]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8180749.stm

[chanthas]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8180749.stm

AS IF THIS GOVERMENT DOSNT MAKE IT DIFFICULT ENOUGH ALREADY,have you seen the current life in the uk test,not easy by anyones standards.

HOPEFULY THESE BUNCH OF <deleted> wont be around for long anyway,but whos going to replace them, only another BUNCH OF <deleted>.

WHY DONT they spend time and look towards actualy clamping down on pure illegals and deporting them.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8180749.stm

AS IF THIS GOVERMENT DOSNT MAKE IT DIFFICULT ENOUGH ALREADY,have you seen the current life in the uk test,not easy by anyones standards.

HOPEFULY THESE BUNCH OF <deleted> wont be around for long anyway,but whos going to replace them, only another BUNCH OF <deleted>.

WHY DONT they spend time and look towards actualy clamping down on pure illegals and deporting them.

Cut the caps please.

[7by7]

From the report linked to in the OP, and other reports I've read, two observations:

1) The test is not going to get any 'tougher' than it is at the moment; not that it's that tough now, just requires a bit of study.

2) The new citizenship rules, points etc., wont apply to spouses and family members of British citizens.

That's my reading of the situation. If I'm mistaken I'd be grateful for any corrections, and links to the same.

[purplehaze]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8180749.stm

About 30 years too late.Extra points if they choose to live in Scotland,I take it they have already passed it through the Scottish Parliment they might as well offer triple points if they choose Northern Ireland.

[micky44]

i saw this on the BBC news last night, could not agree more with it, did you see the demonstration that a large group of anti war protesters, who just happen end to be Muslim, shouting abuse at our troops returning from Iraq? these are the kind of people this legislation is hoping to prevent from becoming UK citizens.

[chanthas]

i saw this on the BBC news last night, could not agree more with it, did you see the demonstration that a large group of anti war protesters, who just happen end to be Muslim, shouting abuse at our troops returning from Iraq? these are the kind of people this legislation is hoping to prevent from becoming UK citizens.

yer there also probably the ones that have come to this country in the back of alorry,or on a six month tourist visa about 5 years ago,but have

forgoten to go home,

[micky44]

well i could not possibly comment on that, you may think that but as i said i could not possibly comment on that.

Edited August 4, 2009 by micky44

[a99az]

I only wish the UK was forced to join Schengen and tow the line or out them from the EU, this would sort them out. Stuck up little Island. I can say this as I am from the UK.

[Mossfinn]

From the report linked to in the OP, and other reports I've read, two observations:

1) The test is not going to get any 'tougher' than it is at the moment; not that it's that tough now, just requires a bit of study.

2) The new citizenship rules, points etc., wont apply to spouses and family members of British citizens.

That's my reading of the situation. If I'm mistaken I'd be grateful for any corrections, and links to the same.

I couldn't find in the OP's link any direction regarding change to the spouse or family regs, nor in an accompanying Independent article, both I found very disappointing, because it is my understanding too, that there is little change here.

So for the majority of people jumping on the band wagon and criticism of any Gov't policies that try to control immigration, to the exception of their own families of course, it is the usual fare.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Mossfinn

[Mossfinn]

i saw this on the BBC news last night, could not agree more with it, did you see the demonstration that a large group of anti war protesters, who just happen end to be Muslim, shouting abuse at our troops returning from Iraq? these are the kind of people this legislation is hoping to prevent from becoming UK citizens.

Are you suggesting the end of free speech Micky, the democratic right to protest, however repugnant that demonstration is to the rank and file of the UK Citizen?

Do all Muslims, if indeed they were all Muslims, agree with what was in fact a small group of protesters?

[Mossfinn]

yer there also probably the ones that have come to this country in the back of alorry,or on a six month tourist visa about 5 years ago,but have

forgoten to go home,

And so bring themselves into the limelight, possibly if things go a little awry, make themselves open to arrest and so deportation proceedings could ensue, or be liable for criminal convictions, that if they are not bona fide citizens, their visa's could be quashed.

I only wish the UK was forced to join Schengen and tow the line or out them from the EU, this would sort them out. Stuck up little Island. I can say this as I am from the UK.

Yup, more forced regulation from Europe, at the point of a red tape gun, that is a sure fire vote winner

[yeesipha]

A piece written in daily express on the 4/5/09.

IMMAGRANTS can expect advice on how to get welfare benefits and learn how to claim will help them earn british citizenship,under goverment proposals announced yesterday.

A home office consultation document said mentors could be provided to help migrants intergrate by providing tips on living in britian,including welfare claims.

local authoriteies would be expected to run "orientation days" for migrantswho would pay to attend and earn net points towards their citiznship by turning up.

The days would include advice on rights and obligations, laws health and laerning english.

They would be part of moves to introduce a points based system for new citizens.

But last night ministers were accused of merely "tinkering" with a much bigger problam and of focusing on "gimmicks".

Matthew elliot cheif executive of the tax payers alliance,said "we should welcome people to britain with instructions to work hard in the best british traditions,not with tutorials on how to claim as many benifits as possible."

Shadow immigration minister damien green said;the most effective way of tackling abuse of the immigration rules is to crack down before people come here,not through gimmicks ten years later.

Lib dem chris huhne said "this is yet more tinkerng with the immigration system from a goverment that has created a record number of new british citizens."

Immigration control campaigners welcomed the proposals which would end the days of virtually automatic citizenship for people living here for five years.

The home office said list of benefits would not be handed out ,but advice given on how jobcentre plus could help those seeking employment.

the spokesman said "in general migrants will have to wait longer to access benefits when they are citizens.Helping them to intergrate would benifit

british society too"

Migrants would get points by having skills,understanding british values and living in areas with labour shortages,like scotland.

Points would be lost for crime,failing to intergrate and anti social behaviour,which could include protesting against british troops.

Immigration minister PHILL WOOLAS said "at the moment, if you get indefinate leave to remain you get the full access to welfare benefits without being a citizen.We think thats wrong.thats no mans land and will not exist for future migrants"

ho humm.

[micky44]

i saw this on the BBC news last night, could not agree more with it, did you see the demonstration that a large group of anti war protesters, who just happen end to be Muslim, shouting abuse at our troops returning from Iraq? these are the kind of people this legislation is hoping to prevent from becoming UK citizens.

Are you suggesting the end of free speech Micky, the democratic right to protest, however repugnant that demonstration is to the rank and file of the UK Citizen?

Do all Muslims, if indeed they were all Muslims, agree with what was in fact a small group of protesters?

no not at all mossfinn, the right to free speech is just one of the great things of living in a democracy, my point was that if an immigrant wanted to become a British citizen then i would of thought rightly or wrongly to take part in such demonstrations as mentioned, was particularly unfitting, as to my statement with them being Muslims, i do not know of any other religious group that wear a :kufi: dont shave and have long hair, well that was the females.

Edited August 5, 2009 by micky44

[mrbojangles]

1) The test is not going to get any 'tougher' than it is at the moment; not that it's that tough now, just requires a bit of study.

I agree with many a thing you say 7by7 except, in every instance you write this.

It is not that tough if you are a native English speaker and study the ridiculous questions. It is VERY tough if your not a native english speaker and haven't studied English at school.

[7by7]

With respect, that is the point of the LitUK test. It is not just a test of one's knowledge, it is mainly a test of one's English ability!

The government say that anyone whose English ability is at ESOL entry level 3 or better should be able to understand the study materials and the test. However, if this is not the case there is the alternative.

If you are not an English speaker, you will need to take and pass an English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) course which contains citizenship materials. To check your language ability, you should work through the tutorial on the Life in the UK test website. If you cannot fully understand the information in this tutorial, you may need to take a course in English and citizenship.

(Source)

To be honest, I simply cannot understand why so many people seem to be getting their knickers in a twist over the KOL requirement.

OK, some of the questions may seem of little relevance, but others deal with a citizen's rights and responsibilities. Surely it can only benefit an immigrant to be aware of these, and to speak English to a reasonable standard.

Other countries have had similar requirements for years. I have recently finished reading a biography of Humphrey Bogart, which says that between takes on the set of Casablanca he helped Ingrid Bergman practice her English and study for her US citizenship exam. That was nearly 70 years ago!

Edited August 5, 2009 by 7by7

[mrbojangles]

With respect, that is the point of the LitUK test. It is not just a test of one's knowledge, it is mainly a test of one's English ability!

I reiterate my point. You said "1) The test is not going to get any 'tougher' than it is at the moment; not that it's that tough now, just requires a bit of study."

I said "It is not that tough if you are a native English speaker and study the ridiculous questions. It is VERY tough if your not a native english speaker and haven't studied English at school."

Nowhere did i get my knickers in a twist about the test. Is disagreeing with you getting my knickers in a twist or is it a debate of peoples personal views? I do strongly believe that to get UK citizenship you should pass a test. Although personally, i didn't think there was too much wrong with how they did it before.

2 years isn't very long. Firstly coming to a new country and settling in, then finding a college that have places available, the paying the fees (some used to be free) etc. etc. With college closures for term time etc, this can only leave 12 months for many to learn a foreign language. I studied Japanese for quite a while and there is no way, even after 2 years that i would have been at the standard required, to have passed something similar in Japanese. And I'm the same in Thai.

Edited August 6, 2009 by mrbojangles

[Electra]

Let us not lose sight of the primary purpose of any test, language or otherwise, as imposed by what passes for the current government, which is to hinder the influx of secondary migration from the subcontinent.

In order to promulgate this initiative and to avoid any accusation of discrimination the application has to be worldwide although in truth the demographic is such most countries pale into insignificance compared to the trend from India and Pakistan. The KOL test was only the beginning of the process which will soon enter its next phase when the requirement to be proficient in the English language at say ESOL entry level 2/3 will soon be introduced for those seeking to qualify for a settlement visa.

That the scheme was dressed up by the NuLabour social engineering apparatchiks in the Home Office as a means of promoting integration is really quite laughable given the social structure prevailing in the sub continent but then one supposes they really didn't think anyone would be duped by it save for the stupid and eternally naive.

Like you Mr. Bojangles I would certainly be scuppered if the Thai ever thought to introduce this wheeze as a means of weeding the farang out.

[Arkady]

It's funny that getting involved with a political party would be regarded as positive but political activities in the form of ant-war demos would not. The Thai Special Branch specifically checks applicants for Thai citizenship to make sure are not involved in political activities and naturalized Thai citizens are banned from voting for their first 5 years and barred from public office for life. A different viewpoint but at least it is clear and consistent whereas the UK wants to cherry pick types of political activities they want immigrants to get involved in and is sending a confused message.

[zzaa09]

Britian created a overstuffed black kharma vault for herself, now they have to live with it.

[7by7]

Nowhere did i get my knickers in a twist about the test. Is disagreeing with you getting my knickers in a twist or is it a debate of peoples personal views?

Nowhere did I suggest that your underwear was in any sort of disarray. Apologies if you got the impression that I had. However, if you read through past threads on this you will see that some people are doing so, which is what I said and meant.

2 years isn't very long. Firstly coming to a new country and settling in, then finding a college that have places available, the paying the fees (some used to be free) etc. etc. With college closures for term time etc, this can only leave 12 months for many to learn a foreign language. I studied Japanese for quite a while and there is no way, even after 2 years that i would have been at the standard required, to have passed something similar in Japanese. And I'm the same in Thai.

You seem to be forgetting that if one follows the ESOL with citizenship route one does not have to become fluent, or even up to entry level 3 standard. One merely has to progress from one level to the next; which from what I have been told by friends who have done this and read in posts on here and elsewhere seems to take most students one term!

Farangs living in Thailand have a far tougher time of it than Thais living here; minimum 40K per month income, 90 day reporting I believe, even if married to a Thai. I also understand that to get Thai citizenship one has to prove one is fluent in Thai.

I repeat, some of the questions may seem of little relevance, but others deal with a citizen's rights and responsibilities. Surely it can only benefit an immigrant to be aware of these, and to speak English to a reasonable standard. It appears from certain posts that some people (NOT you, Mr B J) think this is a bad thing!

[Electra]

[Maizefarmer]

..... its like shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted - its all a bit late now.

How many illegals in the UK? - its in the millions isn't it? - and they will never get them all out.

ON BBC WORLD SERVICE - read on:

A couple weeks back BBC World Service reported a UK Border Agency staff bus (bringing Border Agency staff back to Dover from Calais) unwittingly brought over an illegal immigrant who had concealed himself on the chassis behind one of the underslung fuel tanks. When the bus stopped in Dover town centre, he crawled out from underneath and ran off - with the driver in pursuit (who failed to catch him).

A similar example a few months back cited junior army officers heaing back to Sandhurst from a trip to France (via Dover/Calais) - this illegal though had the cheek to seat himself on the bus amongst the officers!!! - it was not until the bus got back to Sandhurst that the game was up and he was caught*

* - Sandhurst Military training college for the benefit of those who don't know, hosts military officers from many commonwealth and non-commonwelath countries, to include Mid East countries like Iraq, Saudi and UAE states - so the presence of an Arab looking male was not unusual (the illegal in this case, if I remember correctly was a Kurd) - still, its clear that the bus was probably just waved through both sides of the channel.

What is the "catch rate"?

I've been told by folk in the know that, optimisticaly, the BA thinks that at Dover it is around 1 for every 10 that get through, but its more likely to be something like 1 for every 20-30 that get through - simply because its logistically impossible to inspect every truck.

[Thongkorn]

I read today in a paper , and it must be true because it was in a paper , that 25% of immigrants go home after a few years anyway. also when our boys in blue catch them ,after staking out there places to catch them at great cost to us British citizens they arrest them then give them the bus fare to go down to the immigration place to hand themselves in , guess what they don't arrive , i cannot believe that Our Parliament who pass our laws are so unbelievably thick. Mind you most of them are foreigners too,

[Mossfinn]

well that was the females.

Are you suggesting then Micky that anybody protesting against the Gov't doesn't deserve to be a Brit Cit: Afghanistan, Iraq, G7, Climate Change, beard or not??

[vinny]

See also Tough new points system for earning citizenship

Earning the right to British citizenship

What’s the point?

[DC1066]

See also Tough new points system for earning citizenship

Earning the right to British citizenship

What’s the point?

Well done Vinny for actually posting back on topic.

This is a serious matter for most of us on this board with a Thai partner and it would be nice if we could discuss the facts for at least a little while before descending into the usual pantomine over the rights and wrongs of the test and other visa requirements.

The way I read things - rightly or not, is that our Thai partners will not have to go through the points based process, but will have to go though the 'earned citizenshihp' process of active involvement as well as probationary citizensip. There is also the issue that the process is going to be potentially longer for spouses than the current three year minimum requirement.

For me personally, we will be applying for my wife's citizenship before the end of the year. Since these changes were announced early last year the timescale suggested was to be implemented around the time we are going to apply. The other big thing for us personally then is the announcement that the earned citizenship requirements wont be introduced until 2011.

[steve187]

See also Tough new points system for earning citizenship

Earning the right to British citizenship

What’s the point?

Well done Vinny for actually posting back on topic.

This is a serious matter for most of us on this board with a Thai partner and it would be nice if we could discuss the facts for at least a little while before descending into the usual pantomine over the rights and wrongs of the test and other visa requirements.

The way I read things - rightly or not, is that our Thai partners will not have to go through the points based process, but will have to go though the 'earned citizenshihp' process of active involvement as well as probationary citizensip. There is also the issue that the process is going to be potentially longer for spouses than the current three year minimum requirement.

For me personally, we will be applying for my wife's citizenship before the end of the year. Since these changes were announced early last year the timescale suggested was to be implemented around the time we are going to apply. The other big thing for us personally then is the announcement that the earned citizenship requirements wont be introduced until 2011.

Hi My wife is due to apply for her citizenship in early October, as far as i can tell it would seem the rules have not changed, and it is carry on as before, I have just checked the waiting times page, and it states "

Since proposed changes to the route to British citizenship (earned citizenship) were announced, we have been receiving significantly more applications than usual. You should think very carefully before applying if you require your passport within the next three months. You will not need to send your original documents if you make your application through the nationality checking service " surprise surprise more people are now applying, with reference to the nationality checking service can you apply at an office in another area if your town does not have an office? ie Hull if we live in Lincoln.

another quote from the waiting times page "Our service standards set out how quickly we aim to decide applications for British citizenship. The standard is that we will decide 95% of applications within six months" it would seems that those of us that are about to apply will have a long wait.

Edited August 9, 2009 by steve187

[DC1066]

See also Tough new points system for earning citizenship

Earning the right to British citizenship

What’s the point?

Well done Vinny for actually posting back on topic.

This is a serious matter for most of us on this board with a Thai partner and it would be nice if we could discuss the facts for at least a little while before descending into the usual pantomine over the rights and wrongs of the test and other visa requirements.

The way I read things - rightly or not, is that our Thai partners will not have to go through the points based process, but will have to go though the 'earned citizenshihp' process of active involvement as well as probationary citizensip. There is also the issue that the process is going to be potentially longer for spouses than the current three year minimum requirement.

For me personally, we will be applying for my wife's citizenship before the end of the year. Since these changes were announced early last year the timescale suggested was to be implemented around the time we are going to apply. The other big thing for us personally then is the announcement that the earned citizenship requirements wont be introduced until 2011.

Hi My wife is due to apply for her citizenship in early October, as far as i can tell it would seem the rules have not changed, and it is carry on as before, I have just checked the waiting times page, and it states "

Since proposed changes to the route to British citizenship (earned citizenship) were announced, we have been receiving significantly more applications than usual. You should think very carefully before applying if you require your passport within the next three months. You will not need to send your original documents if you make your application through the nationality checking service " surprise surprise more people are now applying, with reference to the nationality checking service can you apply at an office in another area if your town does not have an office? ie Hull if we live in Lincoln.

another quote from the waiting times page "Our service standards set out how quickly we aim to decide applications for British citizenship. The standard is that we will decide 95% of applications within six months" it would seems that those of us that are about to apply will have a long wait.

I agree, its not a surprise that the numbers applying are going up. All those who've been saying, "we'll get to it some day" are moving.

We'll be applying in November and are also expecting a long wait - maybe we should start a citizenship waiting time thread same as the settlement one.

We'll be using the nationality checking service and I believe you can use any of them. Given that you don't have one in Lincoln it would be harsh to stop you using another.

Unfortunately the waiting is part of the process - but at least for us its the last part and we're used to waiting after taking more than 4 months to get our ILR, so we'll submit the application and keep fingers crossed.

Chok dee krap

[mark131v]

We have just put in the paperwork for this last week. Used the nationality checking service and even though it is a bit pricey at £50 i thought it was worth it just for the peace of mind angle. Before we went to the register office to get the paperwork checked i would have laid money on having all the correct documents included turned out we had not. All in all when compared to the hoops you have to throw yourself through for visas and ILR etc it was remarkably painless and like most stuff in this catagory comes across as a bit of a money making scheme (£720 for naturalisation most none refundable if you get knocked back and then a further £72 for a passport further down the line). I dont envisage any problems but the advice from the registraar reference a friend and his wife was that she reckoned it was worth getting it done sooner rather than later as they were expecting a big surge in applications, she was also of the opinion that the application process was only going to get more time consuming and costly

Mark