The Third Sex

[sbk]

Really? I don't have any problem with ladyboys. I personally think that true transsexuals happen to be women born in the wrong body. Never had a ladyboy be anything but nice to me either. I wonder where you got your information from?

[Harcourt]

Wow! I just showed Nong Poy to my GF....she knew who it was. What a BABE! Very sexy looking.

[junki3korean]

Really? I don't have any problem with ladyboys. I personally think that true transsexuals happen to be women born in the wrong body. Never had a ladyboy be anything but nice to me either. I wonder where you got your information from?

Hi SBK.....I wouldn`t call it information just what I thought:).... ladyboys only group with ladyboys, Ladyboys are jealous

of a real ladies and of there beauty, If your ladyboy I guess its intimidating to be around real lady??? I`ve seen nasty fights in Bangkok

Girls on LBs....

Is my assumption totally false??

[junki3korean]

Wow! I just showed Nong Poy to my GF....she knew who it was. What a BABE! Very sexy looking.

Everybody knows the famous Nong Poy! ( if your Thai)

[sbk]

Really? I don't have any problem with ladyboys. I personally think that true transsexuals happen to be women born in the wrong body. Never had a ladyboy be anything but nice to me either. I wonder where you got your information from?

Hi SBK.....I wouldn`t call it information just what I thought:).... ladyboys only group with ladyboys, Ladyboys are jealous

of a real ladies and of there beauty, If your ladyboy I guess its intimidating to be around real lady??? I`ve seen nasty fights in Bangkok

Girls on LBs....

Is my assumption totally false??

I've never heard it. The normal ladyboys I know (ie not in the industry) are friends with girls too (also not in the industry). So, perhaps its only among the pros.

[Harcourt]

Wow! I just showed Nong Poy to my GF....she knew who it was. What a BABE! Very sexy looking.

Everybody knows the famous Nong Poy! ( if your Thai)

What a pin-up girl. Lovely to look at. I have never had any intimacy with men or LB's, but that Nong Poy sure is tempting.

Is she post op TG?

[junki3korean]

Really? I don't have any problem with ladyboys. I personally think that true transsexuals happen to be women born in the wrong body. Never had a ladyboy be anything but nice to me either. I wonder where you got your information from?

Hi SBK.....I wouldn`t call it information just what I thought:).... ladyboys only group with ladyboys, Ladyboys are jealous

of a real ladies and of there beauty, If your ladyboy I guess its intimidating to be around real lady??? I`ve seen nasty fights in Bangkok

Girls on LBs....

Is my assumption totally false??

I've never heard it. The normal ladyboys I know (ie not in the industry) are friends with girls too (also not in the industry). So, perhaps its only among the pros.

It makes sense Business = Rivalry

Edited August 10, 2009 by junki3korean

[Brigante7]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

[Brigante7]

I've always wondered why so many straight western men have such a fascination for ladyboys and why the assumption that this is prevalent in Thailand or that somehow Thailand is odd for having it?

India has a well known 3rd gender, the Hijras, the Lakota Sioux and Blackfoot native Americans, Polynesia, etc etc. all had third genders. The list is long and rather varied and extends back to Mesopotamia, the Incas and more

There may be alot of men with a fascination for ladyboys, I don't know, perhaps JT could run one of his famous poll's, maybe he already has?

Whilst you mention India has alot of third gender, you fail to mention Brazil & this of course is one of the most renowned things that is mention about Thailand in the west.

What I find most amazing about the topic of ladyboys, is the amount of experienced thai visa posters of the gay sect that always like to make funny little quirky posts about ladyboys and gay men etc etc, I don't need to quote or point them out because theres half a dozen of them already in this one and half page thread. Most of the comments don't even have anything to do with the topic at hand . It never ceases to amaze me some of the big chips that are carried around on such little shoulders.

To expand on the OP's original post about why are there so many ladyboys in Thailand, I would of thought that genetics must have been at least 95% in play here. There also seems to be a large amount of very femine males and just as many 'Toms', that is ladies that do everything within their power to be men. It always fascinates me to see many very unattractive Tom's with absolutely stunning girlfriends ....it probably balances itself out in the end, who knows

The reason allot of posters have a facination with LBs is because the LBs that we are exposed to are usually very attractive.

You obviously haven't seen the efforts on Sukhumvit road then, enough to give anybody nightmares, as manly as they come.

Brigante7.

[sbk]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

Actually, that is your opinion. Others happen to have differing opinions.

Its what allows for civilized discussion and debate, this acknowledgment that opinions, if not couched in an abusive and derogatory manner, can be different from one's own.

[Harcourt]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I think it is generally accepted by the non-homophobes, and non-fundamentalist religious types, that there is a third, perhaps even a fourth and a fifth sex.

The only scientific info I could offer without getting into a google competition is in the natural world there is at least one "third" gender: bees. Drones have X,Y, and Z chromosomes, making them not male and not female.

[Brigante7]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I think it is generally accepted by the non-homophobes, and non-fundamentalist religious types, that there is a third, perhaps even a fourth and a fifth sex.

The only scientific info I could offer without getting into a google competition is in the natural world there is at least one "third" gender: bees. Drones have X,Y, and Z chromosomes, making them not male and not female.

I'm a non-homophobe (I love my home) and a non-fundamentalist religious type (Don't believe in god or even religion) and I don't generaly accept that there is a third sex.

I agree with you SBK but it seems TomBKK is happy to tell me and everybody else who frowns upon gay people that we are and I quote " Uptight and bad people"

My views on gay people are very clear and I make no apologies for them and to hel_l with anybody who expects me to agree only with there views, everybody is entitled to express their own views and opinions as much as others might not like those views and opinions.

Brigante7.

[Harcourt]

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I'm a non-homophobe (I love my home) and a non-fundamentalist religious type (Don't believe in god or even religion) and I don't generaly accept that there is a third sex.

I agree with you SBK but it seems TomBKK is happy to tell me and everybody else who frowns upon gay people that we are and I quote " Uptight and bad people"

My views on gay people are very clear and I make no apologies for them and to hel_l with anybody who expects me to agree only with there views, everybody is entitled to express their own views and opinions as much as others might not like those views and opinions.

Brigante7.

So, is it ok for someone to have an opinion that homophobes are uptight and bad?

[neverdie]

Personally I think ladyboys are ugly and cant see what the fuss is about. Weird distorted faces, wide shoulders and no hips plus a deep raspy voice, whats beatiful about such a freak of nature? Only newbs to Thailand obsessed with plastic tits seem to go for them. Not saying you are either!

You're right...ladyboys are very ugly...

Members of Thai ladyboy band "Venus Flytrap"..(From L-R) Amy, Taya, Bobo, Nok and Gina are Thai ladyboys brought together by record company Sony BMG to create a girl group with a twist.

LaoPo

I met Nong Poy twice once in Bangkok and once in Sydney at a LB contest very beautiful but when she talks......

Lb`s are nice people....though females dont like Lbs and Lbs dont like females....

Just one example of an attractive ladyboy who doesnt work in the night scene.

I actually spoke to one that was just as attractive as her, yet her voice was not deep, very lady sounding and when she told me she was a ladyboy, i said, "BS"!!!! Then she showed me her IDENTIFICATION .

I think alot of the homophobes/descriminatory twits in society would be surprised the amount of ladyboys that past them by without being noticed.

[PeaceBlondie]

Six years here as a gay man in two cities here. Almost no experience with LB's. I once had a nice long chat with one who owned and rented out several shop-houses; very feminine, with a Japanese boyfriend.

[Unfaithful]

My #2 boyfriend knows some LB friends, but I never did.

[MarkBKK]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I find that odd coming from someone who seems to be from almost the only country on the planet that encourages men to wear skirts ... indeed, it is held to be a key part of its culture and very ''manly'', isn't it?

[Chunkton]

Sigh. Here we go again: cue closet ladyboy fanciers who want to talk about 'gay men' liking ladyboys. cue me reminding them that the ladyboy bars are in the straight entertainment districts. Repeat ad infinitum.

Like so many old hands you forget that not every poster has been reading TV since the Dark Ages. I might even dare suggest that most new posters read the first page of topics and don't search archives. As such to them this is a new topic and perhaps what ever gay hangups you have about ladyboys and their classification is irrelevant to them?

[sbk]

everybody is entitled to express their own views and opinions as much as others might not like those views and opinions.

Brigante7.

Certainly, as long as you are not offensive or derogatory and within forum rules. You are entitled to your opinion but no one is entitled to air those opinions in an aggressive and nasty way (Not saying you are btw. You aren't, very polite and thank you for that. But unfortunately, many members seem to have difficulty with that particular personality trait).

[G54]

Personally I think ladyboys are ugly and cant see what the fuss is about. Weird distorted faces, wide shoulders and no hips plus a deep raspy voice, whats beatiful about such a freak of nature? Only newbs to Thailand obsessed with plastic tits seem to go for them. Not saying you are either!

You're right...ladyboys are very ugly...

Members of Thai ladyboy band "Venus Flytrap"..(From L-R) Amy, Taya, Bobo, Nok and Gina are Thai ladyboys brought together by record company Sony BMG to create a girl group with a twist.

LaoPo

I met Nong Poy twice once in Bangkok and once in Sydney at a LB contest very beautiful but when she talks......

Lb`s are nice people....though females dont like Lbs and Lbs dont like females....

Really? Then it goes to show what different worlds there are in Thailand as I often see LB's out with women in the pubs and clubs. In fact I see them with women more often than with their own set or with men.

I thought it might have something to do with women being comfortable going for a night out with homosexuals as I have often seen in the UK

[G54]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Seems to me you might be more uptight about it by that remark. I see nothing wrong with a religious upbringing that helps to instil some direction and beliefs as the foundation of your education as it was for many of us. It also teaches us to be tolerant of others - though some might disagree with that historically

Take into account the sizes of the Christian and the Muslim countries of the world and it makes the likes of Thailand small by comparison and they both preach monogamy between heterosexual couples.

Anyway, live and let live, as they say and each to their own

[Harcourt]

I just like coming back to this thread to oggle Nong Poy again. Yum.

[junki3korean]

I just like coming back to this thread to oggle Nong Poy again. Yum.

lol! your funny his one more as a treat lol....

please don`t ask why I have some many photos of LB`s I recieve alot different forward e-mails from Thai friends...

I I I I I swear!

[junki3korean]

[Harcourt]

Thanks Junki.... I may have to reassess my sexuality.

[Brigante7]

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I'm a non-homophobe (I love my home) and a non-fundamentalist religious type (Don't believe in god or even religion) and I don't generaly accept that there is a third sex.

I agree with you SBK but it seems TomBKK is happy to tell me and everybody else who frowns upon gay people that we are and I quote " Uptight and bad people"

My views on gay people are very clear and I make no apologies for them and to hel_l with anybody who expects me to agree only with there views, everybody is entitled to express their own views and opinions as much as others might not like those views and opinions.

Brigante7.

So, is it ok for someone to have an opinion that homophobes are uptight and bad?

LMFAO, yes if it makes you and TomBKK happy. Isn't it starnge how people who dislike gay people and their lifestyle and classed as "Uptight and bad" but the people making the statements aren't, weird isn't it.

Brigante7.

[Brigante7]

Generally Western Christian upbringing is for heterosexual people and couples. Gays or whatever you want to call them, including Ladyboys are frowned upon. That does not make us uptight or bad people.

Well it does make you uptight and bad people. Sorry to break it to you, pal.

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I find that odd coming from someone who seems to be from almost the only country on the planet that encourages men to wear skirts ... indeed, it is held to be a key part of its culture and very ''manly'', isn't it?

That it is, and very fetching us Scotsmen are in our kilts. Although I've only worn a kilt once, when I got married, felt very weird especialy as I was a "True" Scotsman.

Brigante7.

[daoyai]

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I'm a non-homophobe (I love my home) and a non-fundamentalist religious type (Don't believe in god or even religion) and I don't generaly accept that there is a third sex.

I agree with you SBK but it seems TomBKK is happy to tell me and everybody else who frowns upon gay people that we are and I quote " Uptight and bad people"

My views on gay people are very clear and I make no apologies for them and to hel_l with anybody who expects me to agree only with there views, everybody is entitled to express their own views and opinions as much as others might not like those views and opinions.

Brigante7.

So, is it ok for someone to have an opinion that homophobes are uptight and bad?

LMFAO, yes if it makes you and TomBKK happy. Isn't it starnge how people who dislike gay people and their lifestyle and classed as "Uptight and bad" but the people making the statements aren't, weird isn't it.

Brigante7.

Not strange at all, to "dislike" millions of people that you have never met and mean you no harm, that don't affect you, to generalize about a "lifestyle" as you do is at the very least "uptight and bad". As to a third sex, there seems to be some men that are so naturally fem and some women that are so butch that there is obviously more to nature than the rigid definitions you ascribe to.

[LaoPo]

There's a more serious note to "The Third Sex" as well, involving the risk of AIDS. At the moment there is the 9th International Conference on AIDS in Asia and the Pacific (ICAAP) going on in Bali and this article is about Transgenders in general and the risks involved:

RIGHTS-ASIA:

Transgenders Assert Identity At AIDS Meet

Lynette Lee Corporal* - TerraViva/IPS

BALI, Aug 13 (IPS) - "There has been so much confusion going around transgenders. We are not MSMs [men who have sex with men] and don’t lump us under the transvestite [category either] because we have different needs," declared Kartini Slemeh at the 9th International Conference on AIDS in Asia and the Pacific (ICAAP) here.

A transgender, Slemeh heads a transgender support programme in Malaysia that works under the Network of Sex Work Projects (NSWP) - an informal alliance of sex workers and organisations active in 40 countries.

Slemeh and other transgenders from the region said their cause was being taken for granted by many due to lack of knowledge and indifference.

A transgender identifies oneself with another gender other than what the person is biologically born into. Transgenders may identify themselves as homosexuals, transvestites or transsexuals - but some consider conventional sexual orientation labels inapplicable or inadequate for them.

"It’s a very complex thing trying to describe what a transgender is because it goes way beyond mere appearances or sexual preference," Yuni Shara, who heads Kebaya, a non-government organisation based in the Indonesian city of Yogyakarta, told IPS.

Shara said that societal structures make it very difficult for transgenders to be accepted in society. "For instance, I have a difficult time deciding whether to join male or female worshippers."

Stigma and discrimination for a transgender starts at an early age, said Luluk Surahman. "The lack of knowledge and information about reproductive health are compounded by confusion about one’s sexuality, resulting in the individual often being ostracised within the community," said Surahman.

According to Surahman, there are about 4,500 transgenders in Jakarta and some 1,500 of them are under 25 years old. "Often they are undereducated, have no adequate skills to support themselves, which is one of the reasons why they turn to sex work," Surahman explained.

The lack of support systems and awareness among transgenders has contributed to the rise of HIV/AIDS cases. "Almost 40 percent of transgenders in Jakarta are already infected," added Surahman.

Zhao Jian’gang of the Yunnan-based Alliance of Chinese Transgenders disclosed that about 200 transgenders engage in sex work in the southwestern province. Like their counterparts in Jakarta, most of them have low educational background and move frequently from place to place.

Misconceptions about their clients and the low use of condoms even with their partners make their behaviour at high risk for HIV/AIDS.

Subject to arbitrary arrests and ridicule even by the media - which sensationalise their cases - transgenders often experience abuse.

"A friend of mine who got breast implants was arrested because of sex work. They cut off her hair at the detention and rehabilitation centre and placed her with male prisoners," he said.

People Like Us (PLUS) representative Utpal Chakraborty talked about the darker and more dangerous side of being a transgender in India.

"Transgenders live under threat of rape and other forms of abuse. Many join the ‘hijra’, the eunuch community, and undergo illegal, secret and crude castration operations," said Chakraborty, whose organisation works for the "promotion, protection and advancement" of young men’s health and rights. He said that 30 percent of those who undergo such operations die.

Support groups like Kebaya believe that even if it is a slow process, doors are opening for dialogue not only within the transgender community, but also in the wider population.

"Apart from family meetings, we conduct regular dialogues once a month with the local community and also with religious leaders," said Shara.

Surahman and fellow advocates have also started getting in touch with religious leaders and explaining to them the facts about transgenders. Although complete acceptance may be a long time in coming, she realises that baby steps are better than nothing.

"We’ve also tried to lobby for the basic rights of the transgender in the parliament. Everything is still in the process and we don’t see any clear result as of yet," she said. "But we’re not about to stop pursuing this."

Perhaps one of the biggest hurdles that advocacy groups face right now is how to change the mindset of transgenders themselves.

"We often ask them about their concerns and dreams and oftentimes they would tell us their dreams, such as having a big house, a handsome boyfriend or even to be able to start a salon. No one said anything about wanting to know more HIV/AIDS, for instance," said Surahman.

Experts say it is important that skills and educational programmes fit the needs of the transgender community and, in the process, elevate their economic status and protect them from human rights violations.

The most important thing, of course, is for them to feel empowered and accepted by society.

"We are really advocating for full inclusion of our own gender identity within the present societal framework," agreed Zhao.

*TerraViva at ICAAP 09 (http://www.ipsterraviva.asia)

From: http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48054

LaoPo

[Brigante7]

Why does it make us uptight and bad people, because you say so? There are 2 sex's men & woman accept it and move on. Ladyboy's are just men dressed as woman who are in denial that they are men and no matter what they do they will always be men.

Brigante7.

I'm a non-homophobe (I love my home) and a non-fundamentalist religious type (Don't believe in god or even religion) and I don't generaly accept that there is a third sex.

I agree with you SBK but it seems TomBKK is happy to tell me and everybody else who frowns upon gay people that we are and I quote " Uptight and bad people"

My views on gay people are very clear and I make no apologies for them and to hel_l with anybody who expects me to agree only with there views, everybody is entitled to express their own views and opinions as much as others might not like those views and opinions.

Brigante7.

So, is it ok for someone to have an opinion that homophobes are uptight and bad?

LMFAO, yes if it makes you and TomBKK happy. Isn't it starnge how people who dislike gay people and their lifestyle and classed as "Uptight and bad" but the people making the statements aren't, weird isn't it.

Brigante7.

Not strange at all, to "dislike" millions of people that you have never met and mean you no harm, that don't affect you, to generalize about a "lifestyle" as you do is at the very least "uptight and bad". As to a third sex, there seems to be some men that are so naturally fem and some women that are so butch that there is obviously more to nature than the rigid definitions you ascribe to.

You've missed the whole point of the discussion Daoyai, while there are naturally feminine men and butch woman, they are still men and woman. As for generalizing about a lifestyle and disliking millions of people that I've never met, it's easy, it's called freedom of choice and everybody is entitled to it.

Brigante7.