The Third Sex

[LaoPo]

There are transsexual woman. they feel like biological woman that are born in a wrong body. usually they cut off their dicks or try to ignore for themselves that they have dicks and try hard to live a life as woman. in the in the narrow sense of the word i wouldn't call them ladyboys. they are are transsexual woman. the dick doesn't play a role in their life.

the third gender, ladyboys act different. LB mostly come with dicks. the dick plays a role in their life. is important.

a few maybe cut it off too, but even then it's more some kind a body modification, then a gender switch. they define themselves about the absence of their dicks, but are still ladyboys and act like ladyboys and doesn't become transsexual woman.

..how old are you, talking this nonsense ?

Did you ever study the phenomenon of transsexual people, men AND women ?

I think not, otherwise you wouldn't write the nonsensical theory that a transsexual woman is different than the ""third gender", a Ladyboy. The word Ladyboy refers to kathoey vv and is a name more frequently used in Asia and Thailand rather than the west where people of the so called third gender are called transgender or transsexual.

And, PLEASE refrain from writing disparaging about "cutting off their dicks". It's disgusting language.

Your sentence about ladyboys: "a few maybe cut it off too, but even then it's more some kind a body modification.." would be laughable if it was not so sad, the way you speak about ladyboys and the fact that it's completely far off reality

There's no doubt that the vast majority of Ladyboys (read transsexual/transgender) in Thailand are desperately seeking a way out and will fight to reach their goal: to have an operation to become what they are really after: Being, feeling and finally living as a woman.

You probably don't know since you're new here on TV but one of the most respected and highly educated members on Thaivisa is a Lady of high class, from a respectable family in Thailand and also very well respected on this forum !

She is 100% a Lady but was born as transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey; whatever you want to call her.

That doesn't make her less a human being than you or me; on the contrary; she's an example to many in the same situation.

LaoPo

[mca]

She is 100% a Lady but was born as transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey;

Surely you mean she was born as a male but has had gender reassignment surgery?

[LaoPo]

She is 100% a Lady but was born as transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey;

Surely you mean she was born as a male but has had gender reassignment surgery?

[Brigante7]

Why is my view so narrow, because it's not the same as yours? And you say my statement is complete <deleted>.

It's not about finding box's for every style, the disussion is about whether ladyboys are a third sex and as this is an open forum where people are allowed to have an opinion on a subject (Subject to the rules of said forum) then I will do that even if it means that you, tombkk, fridgemagnet and anybody else doesn't agree with that opinion.

Brigante7.

It's "<deleted>" because it doesn't have any relevance to actual studies done in sociology because it's just your own uneducated opinion. Gender is defined by environment and culture aside from physical differences.

My life is black & white wintermute, I live my life in black & white so in my opinion a person that is born with a penis is a man and a person that is born with a vagina is a woman. Since when does culture and enviroment define a gender? Call me old fashioned but in my "Uneducated opinion" gender is defined by what you were born with, you don't agree with me, up to you.

Brigante7.

So, "never too old to learn" (ie educate yourself) doesn't apply to you and that's sad: for yourself.

I hope you don't have any children because you would teach them the wrong way, walking into the future.

LaoPo

LMFAO, OK LaoPo, I personaly know a girl who had a sex change but know matter what she does she'll always be a woman inside, that's what I'm getting at, nothing else. This Topic makes me think of the "Man" in America who had a baby when it turns out it's a woman who wants to be a man and so she had her breasts removed, spent years taking hormones and dressed as a man but said in a statement "Retained my female organs" Which tells me he is a she and always will be, that's what I'm trying to get across.

For your information I have 1 child with another due in October and they will both be raised by the beliefs that are held by my wife and I so who do you think you are to tell me how to raise my children? That is something I would never do, tell somebody else how to raise their kids.

Brigante7.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Brigante7

[LaoPo]

For your information I have 1 child with another due in October and they will both be raised by the beliefs that are held by my wife and I so who do you think you are to tell me how to raise my children? That is something I would never do, tell somebody else how to raise their kids.

Brigante7.

If you teach your children there are just 2 colours in the world: BLACK & WHITE (like you said: my beliefs are black-and-white) I'm afraid you're on the wrong track and taking away a lot of choices and possibilities for your children.

One day they will grow up and discover there are so many more and beautiful colours in the world, other than the black-and-white their father taught them.

LaoPo

[Brigante7]

For your information I have 1 child with another due in October and they will both be raised by the beliefs that are held by my wife and I so who do you think you are to tell me how to raise my children? That is something I would never do, tell somebody else how to raise their kids.

Brigante7.

If you teach your children there are just 2 colours in the world: BLACK & WHITE (like you said: my beliefs are black-and-white) I'm afraid you're on the wrong track and taking away a lot of choices and possibilities for your children.

One day they will grow up and discover there are so many more and beautiful colours in the world, other than the black-and-white their father taught them.

LaoPo

I don't agree with that, life is as simple or as complicated as you make it and that's what I will teach my kids, when you start adding colours to the mix it just confuses things and people end up not knowing if they are going for a sh_it or a haircut, just my opinion and like I've said many times before, you and everybody else is free to disagree with it.

Brigante7.

[Rumfoord]

..how old are you, talking this nonsense ?

Did you ever study the phenomenon of transsexual people, men AND women ?

I think not, otherwise you wouldn't write the nonsensical theory that a transsexual woman is different than the ""third gender", a Ladyboy. The word Ladyboy refers to kathoey vv and is a name more frequently used in Asia and Thailand rather than the west where people of the so called third gender are called transgender or transsexual.

And, PLEASE refrain from writing disparaging about "cutting off their dicks". It's disgusting language.

Your sentence about ladyboys: "a few maybe cut it off too, but even then it's more some kind a body modification.." would be laughable if it was not so sad, the way you speak about ladyboys and the fact that it's completely far off reality

There's no doubt that the vast majority of Ladyboys (read transsexual/transgender) in Thailand are desperately seeking a way out and will fight to reach their goal: to have an operation to become what they are really after: Being, feeling and finally living as a woman.

You probably don't know since you're new here on TV but one of the most respected and highly educated members on Thaivisa is a Lady of high class, from a respectable family in Thailand and also very well respected on this forum !

She is 100% a Lady but was born as transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey; whatever you want to call her.

That doesn't make her less a human being than you or me; on the contrary; she's an example to many in the same situation.

LaoPo

no, and a you made a couple of wrongs. i am talking in a simplified "gender studies" model. as introduced by wintermute: "It's "<deleted>" because it doesn't have any relevance to actual studies done in sociology because it's just your own uneducated opinion. Gender is defined by environment and culture aside from physical differences." you are maybe not familiar with that theory and so cannot understand me.

Sex is not the same like gender. Sex is your biological definition XX/XY. Gender is cultural construction. Different between different cultures and different times.

In addition, transsexual is not the same like transgender.

the gender role of man and woman 500 years ago, or even 50 years ago different than from today. take a woman, how she become a woman is formed by the society and the norms around her, there are expectations how a woman should act and behave. same for man.

There are cultural societies with a very narrow view how a 'normal' man or woman have to be and societies with a much broader concept. some people are not happy with their gender role they got from outside. Call them trans gender, it isn't maybe the best choice of words because it implies maybe a movement between the poles male or female. if a boy or a girl isn't so satisfied to fulfil all the rituals and activities 'normal' man and woman do, doesn't mean that this person want to become a member of the opposite sex. That is only the goal for a subgroup of the so-called transgender people, transsexual people.

I guess the TVmember you are talking about is B.b.. I would say she is a woman, a transsexual woman and not a ladyboy. i never said that i look down at transsexuall people or call them less then other people. No idea how you came to that conclusion.

i just don't want put any variation of "deviance" from the "normal" gender conception into one pot, call them trans-whatever and call them all the third gender. that a over simplification.

ladyboys are somewhere else in the imaginary coordinate system of gender. and the coordinate system gender is a multidimensionality space and not just a linear connection between the constructed poles male on one side and female on the other. transsexual people using that route but in the broader sense - transgender people can float in all direction the want to do in the coordinate system gender. explore new positions. drifting away from one pole you don't have to head to the opposite sex.

you made the mistake you blame brigante7 for. You think one-dimensional. your definition just have 2 fixed poles, man and woman, and a transit way with stopping restriction in between. that isn't so flexible.

the brigante7 model enlarged is more efficient. Axiom - there are two sexes male and female. Imagine a model of two spheres floating in space. One is surrounded by blue clouds, the other with pink clouds. Male and female. Individuals are connected with an imaginary umbilical cord to the center of their sphere. Guess what, symbolizing the biological sex.but it's possible to drift and float around, away from the center, moving to the left corner makes you maybe gay because of thinner air or what ever. all near the center is considered 'normal', moving more away, you become somehow deviant. In addition, the umbilical cord is even long enough that you move form the blue clouds into the pink clouds, that pitch your voice higher and you feel the urge to wear high heels and ca do what ever you want, but there is still the imaginary umbilical cord. Who cares? You are in a biological sense still a man, but floating in pink clouds you can ignore that. That exactly what sociology theory gender studies does. Ignore the biological gender/sex.

I give brigante7 the point, for his basic Natural science viewpoint. Natural science rocks. and all of you talk at cross purposes. looking at a green ball, one said 'it's a ball', the other 'no you stupid, it's green'.

A problem with "cut off dicks" why? a term like phallus would sounds to much psychoanalytic, a pseudo science. I wanted that my description of a body and gender modifications sounds brutish. like a branding tattoo. (i know the surgical procedure is different) and why is that modification sad? it's self-paced.

and that the way people talking here, take the line "good Jewish women who "suck cock and take it up the shitter", there was no objections. Albeit there is a difference in the act, because it involved an other person, penetration of an other person. Sexual male dominance, dick dominance. Shoving dicks up somebody else shitter, is not only a variety of sexual orientation but also a self-reflexive gender definition.

Despite all cultural norms and codes, dicks a pretty animally and effective weapons in the gender discourse. Even as word. Simple dick behaviour or the handle of dick plays a role how to define 'gender'. Even if the dick is absence or got just ignored, like by an asexual (male) for example.

Back to my model of the coordinate system of gender. there it isn't a "transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey; whatever you want to call" easy way of definition. it's more complicated. Those four terms are different categories and intersection. You cannot swap one for the other. Transgender is a big umbrella term and is not equal the third gender. Transsexual stands for the desire to be a member of the opposite sex (the biological sex). Or when you reached that goal, that you had been born with the opposite gender. Like a transsexual man, is a man that was born with the physical look of a woman, but always felt as boy or man.

Kathoy a very broad Thai term, used for a male who lacks masculinity, can include the group that got called in the west 'ladyboys' and the term is used synonym where a western observer would maybe choose the term gay to describe a person. (what doesn't mean that he have to be gay)

ladyboy is mainly a western definition and it includes dick, that can be researched with google image search.

The third gender, transgender person, and in the case of ladyboys, transgender persons that moved away from their born as physical man gender. They are not men.

Not to be a man, does not mean to be a woman. They are also not transsexual woman.

LaoPo, before you call that nonsense again. Please deliver some definition or postulate a new, so we can have a basis to talk about the same green ball.

[LaoPo]

For your information I have 1 child with another due in October and they will both be raised by the beliefs that are held by my wife and I so who do you think you are to tell me how to raise my children? That is something I would never do, tell somebody else how to raise their kids.

Brigante7.

If you teach your children there are just 2 colours in the world: BLACK & WHITE (like you said: my beliefs are black-and-white) I'm afraid you're on the wrong track and taking away a lot of choices and possibilities for your children.

One day they will grow up and discover there are so many more and beautiful colours in the world, other than the black-and-white their father taught them.

LaoPo

I don't agree with that, life is as simple or as complicated as you make it and that's what I will teach my kids, when you start adding colours to the mix it just confuses things and people end up not knowing if they are going for a sh_it or a haircut, just my opinion and like I've said many times before, you and everybody else is free to disagree with it.

Brigante7.

We agree that we disagree.

I'm a lot further in life than you, still growing up with child and one more to come.

I'm past that era a long time ago and enjoy my grandchildren who will have the best possible education as my own kids did, possibly even a lot better. An education as wide and broad as possible, not just Black-and-White like your view of life.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

LaoPo, before you call that nonsense again. Please deliver some definition or postulate a new, so we can have a basis to talk about the same green ball.

Just wish, because of politeness, to let you know that I didn't read your post. It's not my style to discuss with the ignorant since they will never adapt to truth and reality.

A discussion with you is a waste of my precious time.

I'm awaiting a long time Swedish friend and looking forward to see him again. That's a lot more fun than writing in this thread.

I'm out of here.

LaoPo

[manarak]

I don't agree with that, life is as simple or as complicated as you make it and that's what I will teach my kids, when you start adding colours to the mix it just confuses things and people end up not knowing if they are going for a sh_it or a haircut, just my opinion and like I've said many times before, you and everybody else is free to disagree with it.

Brigante7.

That's just what I said.

If reality is "too confusing" for some, make it simpler to grasp by oversimplification. "Simple" is often also "wrong".

Reality should be THE reference for everybody, yet it seems even reality is "too confusing".

I don't know if the problem is mental incapacity or mental lazyness to grasp the nuances of our surroundings.

A discussion with you is a waste of my precious time.

Well, my stance on this discussion is similar to Lao Po's.

I would just like to add, Brigante7, that as long as you educate your children to be tolerant vs. other lifestyles, you can do what you want, really.

If your children get educated, reading classical litterature will teach them everything they need for being free minds and raising above the pre-made opinions, also called prejudices.

Edited August 29, 2009 by manarak

[PeaceBlondie]

Old joke by Shelly Burman: "Last year we had a new baby. Don't know if it's a boy or girl. We'll let it grow up and decide for itself."

I came out to my twins when they were 14. One girl said, "That's alright. All our friends are bisexuals."

[Harcourt]

LaoPo, I think you may have missed something in not reading Rumfoord' explanation. There's alot of sense there.

Rumfoord, most people don't look into any issue as deeply or analytically, thus the simplified "3rd sex". Thus also the "It's green", "No, it's a ball" situation.

For me, I have simplified it in my mind: 3rd sex. But I've always felt that there are many "3rd sexes"....in other words, a 4th sex and a 5th sex etc, so to speak.....who's to put them in a numerical order? Simpler in any situation to refer to a different sex to the traditional 2 sexes, as "3rd sex".

Homosexuality does not come into the "3rd sex" discussion as homosexuality is not a "3rd sex" but a sexual preference. (In my simple mind but I will stand to be corrected on that).

[fridgemagnet]

Why try to reason with any member of the 'my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts' type people.

It is so demonstrably a complete waste of time.

[wamberal]

My apologies in advance for not having read the whole thread, but I assume that people are aware that some of us were born with indeterminate external sexual characteristics? In some cases, with no external sexual characteristics?

[gvallee2]

Being a ladyboy has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Theres a farang katoey here and 'shes's a lesbian.

[LaoPo]

Being a ladyboy has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Theres a farang katoey here and 'shes's a lesbian.

:D ..you just made my day!

LaoPo

[daoyai]

I also know a farang katoy that is a lesbian!, she is a grandmother also, well liked in the community with a wide and diverse social circle, involved in many charity organizations and with a wicked sense of humor. Very interesting and likeable, yet because of her nature or personal choices, someone with the mindset of Brigante7 could not "like" or approve of this person? I don't get it.

[fridgemagnet]

It's just ego.

If it's not bounded by my understanding then it does not exist.

[MrHammer]

Why is it that liberals preach tolerance and understanding but always attack those that don't agree with them?

You're just as black/white as others.

[tombkk]

My apologies in advance for not having read the whole thread, but I assume that people are aware that some of us were born with indeterminate external sexual characteristics? In some cases, with no external sexual characteristics?

In fact, no, I am not aware of this, I have never heard of people with indeterminate or no external sexual characteristics. Do you have a link from which I could learn? I wouldn't even know what to search for a Wikipedia, for example.

[tombkk]

LaoPo, I think you may have missed something in not reading Rumfoord' explanation. There's alot of sense there.

Rumfoord, most people don't look into any issue as deeply or analytically, thus the simplified "3rd sex". Thus also the "It's green", "No, it's a ball" situation.

For me, I have simplified it in my mind: 3rd sex. But I've always felt that there are many "3rd sexes"....in other words, a 4th sex and a 5th sex etc, so to speak.....who's to put them in a numerical order? Simpler in any situation to refer to a different sex to the traditional 2 sexes, as "3rd sex".

Homosexuality does not come into the "3rd sex" discussion as homosexuality is not a "3rd sex" but a sexual preference. (In my simple mind but I will stand to be corrected on that).

I agree that homosexuality is not a third sex. I'm a man and happy about it. I happen to like men. I don't like it when Thai people ask: "Are you gay or are you a man". Many straight Thai people will call a gay man a katoey, which I consider wrong. A katoey is a transvestite or a transgender (M2F) person, in my understanding.

[lazygourmet]

http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2009/09/03/future-lady-boys/

[sokal]

LaoPo, I think you may have missed something in not reading Rumfoord' explanation. There's alot of sense there.

Rumfoord, most people don't look into any issue as deeply or analytically, thus the simplified "3rd sex". Thus also the "It's green", "No, it's a ball" situation.

For me, I have simplified it in my mind: 3rd sex. But I've always felt that there are many "3rd sexes"....in other words, a 4th sex and a 5th sex etc, so to speak.....who's to put them in a numerical order? Simpler in any situation to refer to a different sex to the traditional 2 sexes, as "3rd sex".

Homosexuality does not come into the "3rd sex" discussion as homosexuality is not a "3rd sex" but a sexual preference. (In my simple mind but I will stand to be corrected on that).

I agree that homosexuality is not a third sex. I'm a man and happy about it. I happen to like men. I don't like it when Thai people ask: "Are you gay or are you a man". Many straight Thai people will call a gay man a katoey, which I consider wrong. A katoey is a transvestite or a transgender (M2F) person, in my understanding.

Most men are heterosexual so what the Thai people say is proper.

[endure]

LaoPo, I think you may have missed something in not reading Rumfoord' explanation. There's alot of sense there.

Rumfoord, most people don't look into any issue as deeply or analytically, thus the simplified "3rd sex". Thus also the "It's green", "No, it's a ball" situation.

For me, I have simplified it in my mind: 3rd sex. But I've always felt that there are many "3rd sexes"....in other words, a 4th sex and a 5th sex etc, so to speak.....who's to put them in a numerical order? Simpler in any situation to refer to a different sex to the traditional 2 sexes, as "3rd sex".

Homosexuality does not come into the "3rd sex" discussion as homosexuality is not a "3rd sex" but a sexual preference. (In my simple mind but I will stand to be corrected on that).

I agree that homosexuality is not a third sex. I'm a man and happy about it. I happen to like men. I don't like it when Thai people ask: "Are you gay or are you a man". Many straight Thai people will call a gay man a katoey, which I consider wrong. A katoey is a transvestite or a transgender (M2F) person, in my understanding.

Most men are heterosexual so what the Thai people say is proper.

'Man' is a word that describes someone's gender not their sexual orientation.

[endure]

My apologies in advance for not having read the whole thread, but I assume that people are aware that some of us were born with indeterminate external sexual characteristics? In some cases, with no external sexual characteristics?

In fact, no, I am not aware of this, I have never heard of people with indeterminate or no external sexual characteristics. Do you have a link from which I could learn? I wouldn't even know what to search for a Wikipedia, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

[sokal]

LaoPo, I think you may have missed something in not reading Rumfoord' explanation. There's alot of sense there.

Rumfoord, most people don't look into any issue as deeply or analytically, thus the simplified "3rd sex". Thus also the "It's green", "No, it's a ball" situation.

For me, I have simplified it in my mind: 3rd sex. But I've always felt that there are many "3rd sexes"....in other words, a 4th sex and a 5th sex etc, so to speak.....who's to put them in a numerical order? Simpler in any situation to refer to a different sex to the traditional 2 sexes, as "3rd sex".

Homosexuality does not come into the "3rd sex" discussion as homosexuality is not a "3rd sex" but a sexual preference. (In my simple mind but I will stand to be corrected on that).

I agree that homosexuality is not a third sex. I'm a man and happy about it. I happen to like men. I don't like it when Thai people ask: "Are you gay or are you a man". Many straight Thai people will call a gay man a katoey, which I consider wrong. A katoey is a transvestite or a transgender (M2F) person, in my understanding.

Most men are heterosexual so what the Thai people say is proper.

'Man' is a word that describes someone's gender not their sexual orientation.

I know that but heterosexuality is a manly trait because men want to reproduce so if you are gay then you do not show the same interest in reproducing.

[endure]

I know that but heterosexuality is a manly trait because men want to reproduce so if you are gay then you do not show the same interest in reproducing.

[Rumfoord]

I agree that homosexuality is not a third sex. I'm a man and happy about it. I happen to like men. I don't like it when Thai people ask: "Are you gay or are you a man". Many straight Thai people will call a gay man a katoey, which I consider wrong. A katoey is a transvestite or a transgender (M2F) person, in my understanding.

Most men are heterosexual so what the Thai people say is proper.

'Man' is a word that describes someone's gender not their sexual orientation.

in case of katoey it becomes little bit tricky. and a transvestite or transsexual person could argue the same, that it is wrong to call them katoey.

the thai word katoey is used to describe gay man and that so-called third gender, transgender persons."'ladyboys" Male2thirdgender, or M2F transsexual.

because it's colloquial language and not a scholarly or academical term of social gender studies or coined by post modern LGBT activist it doesn't follow the constructs of these theories or that western concepts. so it actually means both "gay" and/or "trans" person, used without distinctions between the both.

it is also diffcult to translate one2one into a single word of the english language and there isn't an exact definition. so the straight Thai people that call you 'Katoey' don't get it wrong.

the term 'gay' as english loanword is relative new in the thai language and maybe in the future, by thai language speakers of the comming generations used to describe gay man like in the western way, meanwhile kathoey will be used for transsexual/transgender only or it will disappear from the daily vocabulary. who knows, maybe the term is still kept because in this tolarate society/culture don't exist a pressure like in the western/christian world that leads to an gay, lesbian, transgender whatever emancipation and liberation movement over there and straight thai people still don't make any further destinction or think of is as politically incorrect language.

katoey or how the term is used means: 'men' (born man) who lack masculinity and don't meet the requirements of the gender role concept how 'real' man should be. (take a woman and reproduce, have offspring) or 'men' who don't practice the activity of penetrate others but take the passive role and got penetrated by other 'men'.

edit:

addition to prevent misunderstanding

"the requirements of the gender role concept how 'real' man should be." is of course only a social construct, the way how a society defines the 'normal/real man'.

and so a person who isn't a 'normal' heterosexual man got called kathoey.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Rumfoord

[endure]

katoey or how the term is used means: 'men' (born man) who lack masculinity and don't meet the requirements of the gender role concept how 'real' man should be. (take a woman and reproduce, have offspring) or 'men' who don't practice the activity of penetrate others but take the passive role and got penetrated by other 'men'.

Katoey is either a transvestite or transsexual depending on whether they've had medical intervention. Men who are penetrated by other men are 'gay queens'. Men who penetrate other men are 'gay kings'.

[sokal]

I agree that homosexuality is not a third sex. I'm a man and happy about it. I happen to like men. I don't like it when Thai people ask: "Are you gay or are you a man". Many straight Thai people will call a gay man a katoey, which I consider wrong. A katoey is a transvestite or a transgender (M2F) person, in my understanding.

Most men are heterosexual so what the Thai people say is proper.

'Man' is a word that describes someone's gender not their sexual orientation.

in case of katoey it becomes little bit tricky. and a transvestite or transsexual person could argue the same, that it is wrong to call them katoey.

the thai word katoey is used to describe gay man and that so-called third gender, transgender persons."'ladyboys" Male2thirdgender, or M2F transsexual.

because it's colloquial language and not a scholarly or academical term of social gender studies or coined by post modern LGBT activist it doesn't follow the constructs of these theories or that western concepts. so it actually means both "gay" and/or "trans" person, used without distinctions between the both.

it is also diffcult to translate one2one into a single word of the english language and there isn't an exact definition. so the straight Thai people that call you 'Katoey' don't get it wrong.

the term 'gay' as english loanword is relative new in the thai language and maybe in the future, by thai language speakers of the comming generations used to describe gay man like in the western way, meanwhile kathoey will be used for transsexual/transgender only or it will disappear from the daily vocabulary. who knows, maybe the term is still kept because in this tolarate society/culture don't exist a pressure like in the western/christian world that leads to an gay, lesbian, transgender whatever emancipation and liberation movement over there and straight thai people still don't make any further destinction or think of is as politically incorrect language.

katoey or how the term is used means: 'men' (born man) who lack masculinity and don't meet the requirements of the gender role concept how 'real' man should be. (take a woman and reproduce, have offspring) or 'men' who don't practice the activity of penetrate others but take the passive role and got penetrated by other 'men'.

edit:

addition to prevent misunderstanding

"the requirements of the gender role concept how 'real' man should be." is of course only a social construct, the way how a society defines the 'normal/real man'.

and so a person who isn't a 'normal' heterosexual man got called kathoey.

That makes me right, I think