Merchant Of Death To Learn Fate Today

[jasreeve17]

Ha! It's neither arrogant or ignorant to say the USA is not going to collapse within the next year. . Oh God I can't believe I am actually having this argument. Ok, If you insist, I'll set my watch and we will see just how wrong you are.

See you then Wednesday 11th of August 2010 here in the forums...you'll eat your own words.

You need to set the rules properly for this 'game'.

Are we talking total US economic meltdown within 365 days, or what?

[meom]

No, however I believe in true liberty and not being a slave to a few powerful governments agenda.

Make no mistake, there are hundreds of arms dealers in the world but there is a reason Victor has been seen as a target. And it is not because DoJ cares about some people in a village in Africa.

He became a target because the DEA was after the FARC which traffic a lot of narcotics. Victor Bout was also in drug shipments so that's why the DEA set up this whole sting to catch him.

It seems to me they bungled the extradition request; instead of asking extradition for illegal arms dealing they should have requested extradition for drugs dealing.

[lebelge]

Update:

US 'disappointed and mystified' by Bout ruling: diploma

BANGKOK: -- The United States is "disappointed and mystified" by a Thai court's decision to reject a request for the extradition of Russian alleged arms dealer Viktor Bout, a senior US diplomat said Tuesday.

"We are disappointed and mystified by the court's ruling. We think the facts of the case are relevant to Thai laws," James Entwistle, the deputy chief of mission at the US embassy in Bangkok, told reporters.

The court said that it did not have the authority to punish "actions done by foreigners against other foreigners in another country."

-- AFP 2009-08-11

Mystified, that's rich coming from a country that would have to be the largest supplier of weapons in the world, maybe the US does not like competition, I wonder what would happen if the Palestinians take the US to task for supplying Israel weapons that they use indiscriminately against non combatants?? (and before anyone asks I'm not against Israel existing but hate they way they can try and justify taking over the occupied lands with settlements and the way they treat the Palestinian people in a similar way that the Germans treated the Jews in WWII)

It's good to see a sensible outcome in this case

[lebelge]

No, however I believe in true liberty and not being a slave to a few powerful governments agenda.

Make no mistake, there are hundreds of arms dealers in the world but there is a reason Victor has been seen as a target. And it is not because DoJ cares about some people in a village in Africa.

He became a target because the DEA was after the FARC which traffic a lot of narcotics. Victor Bout was also in drug shipments so that's why the DEA set up this whole sting to catch him.

It seems to me they bungled the extradition request; instead of asking extradition for illegal arms dealing they should have requested extradition for drugs dealing.

Hearsay, if you can't get him one thing try and get him on an emotive subject. Don't you think if that had evidence of that they would not have used it?

[lannarebirth]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with selling arms.

If it was, let's drag US, UK, Germany, Russia, China, and a whole lot more countries infront of an international court and convict all the politicians approving it.

Seeing it happen yet?

I agree 100% weapons are money and jobs.

Anyone here know the movie LORD OF WAR with Nicolas Cage? watch it, its nearly true. Americans dont sale weapons in conflict areas?...what a bull.....

I bet, one can sale and buy everything if he knows the right people.....

Possibly the worst movie I have seen in the past 10 years. Not a movie critic are you? I mean it was just a dreadful piece of work.

[ScubaBuddha]

Ha! It's neither arrogant or ignorant to say the USA is not going to collapse within the next year. . Oh God I can't believe I am actually having this argument. Ok, If you insist, I'll set my watch and we will see just how wrong you are.

See you then Wednesday 11th of August 2010 here in the forums...you'll eat your own words.

It's a date.

[Thai at Heart]

I dont see the problem.... He is an operative operating in a foriegn country so he has to abile by their rules.

He knew the consiquenses of the job when he signed on so he should therefore accept them.... Either rot in jail or take a bullet to the head: just stop wingeing about it!!!

Every job has a cost.

In which case, on what grounds did they arrest him? It is amazing living in a country where there isn't legal precedent. The cops sort of get fed a story that he is doing something wrong so they arrest a guy, put him in jail for 18 months, and then a court decides not.

I do find it rather interesting that Hong Kong supposedly expelled someone for trying to destabilize another country from within it's boundaries.

[tim73]

You need to set the rules properly for this 'game'.

Are we talking total US economic meltdown within 365 days, or what?

Ok, dollar crash/hyperinflation

or military takeover/martial law declared due to riots

or USA defaulting within next 365 days.

[A_Traveller]

For those with short memory:

The activity to apprehend Bout was undertaken by the DEA [Drug Enforcement Agency]

The initial charges were of intent to supply weapons to the FARC [they are listed as a Terrorist Group by the US, but not by Thailand]

The realisation that the initial charges were insufficient lead to a second set being drafted and which added the [paraphrased] supply of weapons used in the murder of US citizens, which quickly became the single hook upon which to contend that the US had an arguable legal cause, let alone case.

In the Indictment [or was it legally the complaint] it is also clear that there was no direct evidence [e.g. communication intercept] of Bout directly agreeing, negotiating or otherwise acting to supply weapons. In all cases there were claims by 'confidential sources' but no direct provable link. For those who argue that he should be sent to the US to face the accusations, I have to say that on my reading the indictment is all 'cc1 claimed that....' and I would suspect that if there was incontrovertible evidence that the Thai court would be made aware of it.

I do wonder if a number of TLA's [not just US & UK by the by] are more than happy to see the prospect of Bout back in Moscow and nowhere near a witness stand.

Am I alone in seeing the image of say Kofi Annan being required to testify about the UN's use of Bout's companies, [they were famously involved in successful delivery of aid, in many cases to places that no one else was willing to fly to {No I'm not suggesting nomination for the Peace Prize either}] or Dick "The Hat" Cheney for that matter, let alone a wide sprinkling of EU government reps.

Regards

/edit typo//

Edited August 11, 2009 by A_Traveller

[ScubaBuddha]

...Probably his planes carried weapons to some Muslim terrorist group that is now so plain WRONG, according to West. ...

Interesting, so you are a terrorist sympathizer prophetizing the end of the USA as we know it within the next year. Ok, picture is starting to come together here. Next you'll tell us Bin Laden's not such a bad guy then eh?

[Breda2bone]

Its only one way for him: extradition. It will happen sooner or later as US is much stronger on the ground in Thailand than Russia.

not sure about that, now a days there are more russians in pattaya than yanks.

and why is entrapment still legal, they ask me to sell, i can, they wanne pay, i do, but when there's no delivery, but only talk, should be not enough evidence

[vicco]

Nice to see you guys are all getting along so well......Thaivisa falang harmony at it's best....

I'm not an American but every once in a while I just get tired of semi-literate morons from the UK and EU countries when they get on this anti yank kick!!

When shit happens in the world and you can't handle it (which is almost always) who do you turn to?? USA.. When the USA gets involved you bitch and complain about yankee bullies. You people are always against everything....what exactly are you for??? The EU has lost the balls to stand up to anything...all they are capable off is talking.....study groups...protesting with bill boards and finger pointing when somebody else (usually the US) tries to do something about it. American foreign policy has often been flawed.....bad decisions have been made....but at least they try .....If the EU would shut up whining and help out....maybe we would start to get somewhere. Fat chance

And somebody suggested the UN should deal with this arms dealing thug!! The fuc_king UN is just the worlds most expensive debating society....

That's my two cents worth as an objective non-American...... Whine on...................

I wonder if some of you American haters were forced to choose between what Americans want for the world and what some of the regimes you seem to sympathize with want for the world........who would you run to??? Stupid question.....you could never be honest with your answer.......it's not just the Thai's who can't stand to lose face.. I wonder how many of you anti-American whiners have every set foot in the US.... I have spent a good deal of time there....and lots of time in the UK and EU countries too. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind which I would choose if I had to.....even taking into account the sometimes bad policy decisions made by US governments at times......find me a country that does not have bad government decisions!!!!

[reallyok]

Regardless of how you feel about war, or peace, or arms sales, the issue is one man and one set of circumstances.

Viktor Bout committed no crime in Thailand.

The American DEA, however, created a "set of criminal circumstances" (i.e., an illegal sting operation.)

I would argue that for all of us, who conduct business internationally, that the Bout case is one to watch, and it is not good for Thailand.

Bangkok is a cross roads where many persons meet to discuss many types of business deals, or prospective business deals.

Bout is guilty of meeting and talking.

If Bout gets extradited to the USA, it sends a chilling message far beyond just the world of Arms Sales. Practically, it means that every International businessman, everyplace, in any business, must be well versed in every trendy and fashionable American "cause d'jour".

So, I would ask the not-so-rhetorical question: If you plan to meet anyone, anywhere on the planet, to discuss any business deal of any kind, can you be sure that you are not somehow violating one of the USA's extraterritorial laws?

How do you know Victor Bout committed no crime in Thailand, are you a personal aquaintenance of his ?

It is a known fact that he has committed many crimes against humanity. Are you saying that those crimes are ok just so long as they were not against you or in your back yard.............How bloody pathetic!

The fact is that the UN is a 'toothless' tiger and under many circumstances quite open to bribery.

I am not a Yank, but say thank god for the USA, if it were not for them the world would be a far worse place to live in.

Oh yes, they do go off 'half cocked' at times, but thats the price we have to pay for some stability in the world.

[meom]

No, however I believe in true liberty and not being a slave to a few powerful governments agenda.

Make no mistake, there are hundreds of arms dealers in the world but there is a reason Victor has been seen as a target. And it is not because DoJ cares about some people in a village in Africa.

He became a target because the DEA was after the FARC which traffic a lot of narcotics. Victor Bout was also in drug shipments so that's why the DEA set up this whole sting to catch him.

It seems to me they bungled the extradition request; instead of asking extradition for illegal arms dealing they should have requested extradition for drugs dealing.

Hearsay, if you can't get him one thing try and get him on an emotive subject. Don't you think if that had evidence of that they would not have used it?

True.

"The DEA unit that finally got the better of Viktor Bout is a relatively new creation. The agency had been chasing the FARC and other international narco-traffickers for years, but after 9/11, changes to federal law provided the drug warriors with greater latitude to run overseas operations against non-American targets. "We crossed over post-9/11 and actually formed a group" to pursue these types of investigations, says DEA spokesman Michael Sanders. (He declined to provide further information about the group for security reasons, but described the Bout sting operation as "guarded" and the number of people involved as "very small.") "We can reach out and get hold of somebody as far as drugs go, and they don't have to be present or have done something inside the domestic United States to be convicted for these drug crimes." Bout was known to transport small amounts of drugs between weapons transfers (he hated nothing so much as an empty cargo bay), and in that the DEA found a pretense to go after him. "We were presented with an opportunity, and we didn't pass it off," says Sanders. "We took it and ran with it."

Full article here http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/0...bouts-last-deal

[Breda2bone]

...Probably his planes carried weapons to some Muslim terrorist group that is now so plain WRONG, according to West. ...

Interesting, so you are a terrorist sympathizer prophetizing the end of the USA as we know it within the next year. Ok, picture is starting to come together here. Next you'll tell us Bin Laden's not such a bad guy then eh?

Bin Laden is not a bad guy, the people who give him that stamp are much worse, or do you believe that Bush and Thaksin were nice people as well??

they created more muslim violence, with their stands

[Netfan]

Funny, every time someone gets caught trafficking drugs here, its "hang 'em high" time on TV. Next time I'm gonna defend the guy (or woman) with the "yeah, but he's only carrying a product across a border - what happens after he delivers the heroin isn't up to him, and besides Thai politicians are involved in the drug trade so that makes him innocent of any crime" line. The guy was selling weapons to the highest bidder, no matter who it was. <deleted> him. Anyway, this wasn't a trial. It was an extradition hearing. Thailand better hope it doesn't need a favor any time soon. This will not be forgotten.

And I guess I'm naive, I never knew so much petty jealousy of the US existed here. A lot of repressed anger coming out it seems. I guess a few people miss their shrinks back home

[Chunkton]

I predict they let him go

Russia - US relations are being "restarted" by Obama administration so expect less pressure from the states

Really? Wasn't that Biden in the Ukraine and Georgia recently? Could you give some actual examples and not just their political spin.

[ScubaBuddha]

...Probably his planes carried weapons to some Muslim terrorist group that is now so plain WRONG, according to West. ...

Interesting, so you are a terrorist sympathizer prophetizing the end of the USA as we know it within the next year. Ok, picture is starting to come together here. Next you'll tell us Bin Laden's not such a bad guy then eh?

Bin Laden is not a bad guy, the people who give him that stamp are much worse, or do you believe that Bush and Thaksin were nice people as well??

they created more muslim violence, with their stands

Thaksin's got nothing to do with this...and if you would have actually read a little more of this thread you would know exactly how I feel about Bush. Everything is in absolutes with you people. Bin Laden bad = Bush is good. <deleted>? Are you nuts? When there is no argument that can be made, you make wildly inaccurate and irrelevant contrasts that make absolutely no sense, but there is a lot of nonsense in a lot of the posts in this thread.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[tim73]

...Probably his planes carried weapons to some Muslim terrorist group that is now so plain WRONG, according to West. ...

Interesting, so you are a terrorist sympathizer prophetizing the end of the USA as we know it within the next year. Ok, picture is starting to come together here. Next you'll tell us Bin Laden's not such a bad guy then eh?

1980 one Norwegian guy predicted Soviet Union collapse within ten years and everybody else laughed. He also predicted little later that USA will follow within 20-30 years and everybody else laughed even more...he got the first part right...Empires do collapse sooner or later and I think it is about the time for USA. Here is one interesting link: cluborlov.blogspot.com

For better or worse, the economic collapse of USA is coming...

[reallyok]

Of course this was entrapment and of course the Americans do not give a dam_n about the rule of law, wherever they operate in the world. If there is one people who have studied Mein Kampf very well it are the Americans as they behave like the new super race. The other fact of life is that the Thai police and military seldom follow proper procedure and entrap their own all the time even enlisting children, something the East german secret police would not have dared.

In my opinion, there should have been a 'shoot out' in the hotel room with the gallant Thai police defending themselves and Mr Bout getting shot dead.

I think this just might 'unfortunately' have happened before in Thailand ...

Problem over !

[Scott]

Well, this whole thing can be solved easily. He tried to sell arms while in Thailand. If doesn't have a Work Permit, then he should be strung up for sure!

Actually, I find the Thai Courts fascinating. Very difficult to figure them out, but fascinating none-the-less.

[reallyok]

So much stupid anti-American rubbish being talked by naive ideologists... If the Chinese or Russians were the big boys of the world then we really would be farked.

People that sell weapons (breaking multiple international laws), i.e. killing others for their own personal profit, should (actually must) be held accountable - trying to turn the argument into an ideological debate rather than a point of law is ridiculous. I'd strongly like to comment on the verdict handed down, but I think it's illegal here to critisize court rulings (though you can praise crazy court rulings perfectly legally???)

In my opinion this Russian guy is a mass murdering scumbag who should be in prison. I reckon that Bush and Blair are mass murdering scumbags that should be in prison too, but that's a completly different and seperate story.

Another embarrassing day for Thialand... they're just none stop...

He hasn't killed anyone.

He, as many other companies and countries, has sold materials and tools of war and defense.

The rest is just hyperbole.

How do you know he has'nt killed anyone............did he tell you, stupid !

[reallyok]

So much stupid anti-American rubbish being talked by naive ideologists... If the Chinese or Russians were the big boys of the world then we really would be farked.

People that sell weapons (breaking multiple international laws), i.e. killing others for their own personal profit, should (actually must) be held accountable - trying to turn the argument into an ideological debate rather than a point of law is ridiculous. I'd strongly like to comment on the verdict handed down, but I think it's illegal here to critisize court rulings (though you can praise crazy court rulings perfectly legally???)

In my opinion this Russian guy is a mass murdering scumbag who should be in prison. I reckon that Bush and Blair are mass murdering scumbags that should be in prison too, but that's a completly different and seperate story.

Another embarrassing day for Thialand... they're just none stop...

He hasn't killed anyone.

He, as many other companies and countries, has sold materials and tools of war and defense.

The rest is just hyperbole.

How do you know he has'nt killed anyone............did he tell you, stupid !

[ianh68]

Merchant of death to learn fate today

By John Le Fevre

...

Following his arrest the Russian embassy hired Thai lawyer Lak Nitiwatvichan, who told reporters, "He was a military man. He has done nothing wrong.

...

As we all know, the military can do no wrong inThailand

Much as I hate to agree with TAWP (by that I mean on the principles and ethics of arms dealing), I do believe he has a point.

He has a point up to a point. "The Permanent Arms Economy" by Trotsky said it all about the role of the state. That doesn't mean to say the likes of Bout should be given a free pardon. Do you really think the more freelance arms dealers there are the safer the world is?

As one earlier said, "if he supplied the red shirts some weapons", to add.. we would see a different story here... Its sad that Thailand wants to be known for the Gangsta 'hide outs'... Just like the the gangsta the other day... who 'was or was not' caught in Thailand...

Easy enough to get rid of the Tamil, why not the Russian?

Guess U do not understand how the Russian Mafia and Thai Mafia can "fix" things?

Of course!

[george]

Thailand won't extradite Russian "Merchant of Death"

BANGKOK: -- Alleged to be an arms dealer supplying rebels and terrorist movements in Africa, Asia and Latin America epic proportions, Russian Viktor Bout has survived an extradition bid in Thailand by US authorities, with a Bangkok judge dashing US hopes in the high-profile case.

However, James Entwistle, deputy chief of mission at the US embassy in Bangkok, said the court ruling would have no impact on bilateral relations between Thailand and the US.

Striking down the US request to turn over the former Soviet air force officer to the American authorities, a Bangkok court ruled on Tuesday that an anti-government movement in Columbia was a political movement and not a terrorist movement as portrayed by the US and that consequently Thailand could not interference in the internal political affairs of another country.

Said to be the inspiration for Hollywood actor Nicholas Cage’s ‘Merchant of Death’, Viktor Bout was arrested in March last year in a combined Thai-US sting operation in a Bangkok hotel. US agents posing as members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) tried to buy large quantities of military hardware from Mr Bout.

Clad in an orange prison jumpsuit and shackled, Mr Bout claimed in court that he was a legitimate businessman running an air cargo company, despite previous UN sanctions, being indicted by a Belgian court for alleged money-laundering indictment, and having his assets frozen by the US and an assets freeze by the US.

Forty-two-year-old Bout was defended in the media by wife Alla who claimed that no evidence was offered of her husband’s guilt.

US authorities say Mr Bout tried to sell billions of baht of deadly military hardware – weapons, SAM (surface-to-air missiles), helicopters and aircraft carrying grenade launchers and missiles – to the Colombian rebels. The US has levied alleged terrorism charges against him in New York.

Thai prosecutors have 72 hours to appeal the court ruling. If convicted, Mr Bout faces life in prison.

-- TNA 2009-08-11

[marsteele]

Funny, every time someone gets caught trafficking drugs here, its "hang 'em high" time on TV. Next time I'm gonna defend the guy (or woman) with the "yeah, but he's only carrying a product across a border - what happens after he delivers the heroin isn't up to him, and besides Thai politicians are involved in the drug trade so that makes him innocent of any crime" line. The guy was selling weapons to the highest bidder, no matter who it was. <deleted> him. Anyway, this wasn't a trial. It was an extradition hearing. Thailand better hope it doesn't need a favor any time soon. This will not be forgotten.

And I guess I'm naive, I never knew so much petty jealousy of the US existed here. A lot of repressed anger coming out it seems. I guess a few people miss their shrinks back home

That sounds like typical American sour grapes because the USA didn't get thier own way. Good on you Thailand for standing up to the worlds dictator. I am sure now there are a lot of people in the USA who will now be proclaiming Thailand as a terrorist state because they lost and will be wanting to rally the forces to get even. Don't worry the rest of the world will be with you not the USA

[Loptr]

No where in the article did it state that Thailand has refused extradition of this person to the US... Where did you get that from George???

[george]

Bout: 'Merchant of Death' or air cargo boss? - Profile

by Claire Truscott

BANGKOK: -- Using eight different aliases, Viktor Bout was accused of trotting the globe while peddling old Soviet weaponry to some of the world's most violent warmongers, including Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda network.

From African civil wars to Colombian guerrilla conflicts, the 42-year-old former Soviet air force pilot allegedly used his command of six languages to barter deals for planes and guns across the world.

Burly and with a signature moustache, his notoriety inspired the Hollywood film "Lord of War" starring Nicolas Cage, in which the anti-hero escaped justice.

Bout finally seemed to have met his match when he was arrested at a Bangkok hotel in March 2008 while negotiating with US agents posing as guerrillas from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC).

But after an 18-month legal battle in Thailand's courts, Bout has won a victory against US attempts to extradite him and charge him with terrorism offences that carry a life sentence.

The judges surprised Thailand's close American allies when they ruled that Bout could not be deported to the United States to stand trial because the FARC was not listed in the kingdom as a terrorist group.

He will walk free later this week if Thailand's government fails to appeal against the decision.

Bout himself maintained his innocence from the day he was picked up at the five-star Sofitel hotel in the Thai capital after allegedly negotiating to supply surface-to-air missiles in a series of covert meetings that also took him to Denmark and Romania.

"I never supplied arms and especially never had any deal with Al-Qaeda," Bout told Channel 4 News, insisting instead that he had always run a legitimate air cargo business.

Bout was born in the Tajikistan capital Dushanbe in 1967 and studied several languages -- including English, French and Portuguese -- at Moscow's military institute for foreign languages before joining the Soviet air force.

He has repeatedly denied suggestions that he was a former KGB agent and that he bought weaponry, aircraft and helicopters at throwaway rates at the fall of the Soviet Union to supply to conflict zones.

However, former British foreign office minister Peter Hain dubbed him the "Merchant of Death," while Amnesty International has alleged that at one time he operated a fleet of more than 50 planes ferrying weapons around Africa.

The British press has linked him to Al-Qaeda and to Afghanistan's extremist Taliban movement. Bout is also suspected of smuggling arms to former Liberian president Charles Taylor, who was subject to an UN arms embargo.

Journalist Douglas Farah, who co-authored a book on Bout, has called him "a unique creature" born of the end of Communism and the rise of unbridled capitalism when the Berlin Wall came down in the early 1990s.

Bout, also known as "Boris" and "Vadim Markovich Aminov" among several other pseudonyms, kept a high profile since his arrest, aided by an impassioned appearance by his wife at an extradition hearing earlier this year.

"He became a celebrity in a sense because of NGOs and UN reporting about him," Alex Vines, head of the Africa programme at Britain's Royal Institute of International Affairs, told AFP.

"He became the brand name for sanction-busting, but there are plenty of others who can offer the same services. It contributed to his problems, that he was a brand to be recognised," he said.

"This is a business that doesn't do well with this kind of recognition."

-- AFP 2009-08-11

[sunnymarky]

Of course Thailand has so many gangster , illegal activities within its own borders. Usually by those with Political or economic power. Bout maybe can be used to front an operation.

PS All the Anti American Jerks on here. They just like to see these sort of court decisions , Simply because of the Failure to uphold a US extradition application, . Why we surprised , Thai Courts are the nearest thing to gambling there is. (Thai Law can never be sure to be upheld)

[Zebo]

Well, this whole thing can be solved easily. He tried to sell arms while in Thailand. If doesn't have a Work Permit, then he should be strung up for sure!

Actually, I find the Thai Courts fascinating. Very difficult to figure them out, but fascinating none-the-less.

No work permit... string him up... like all the English teachers here right?