Calling All Nutritionist (amateur Or Professional)

[Oneman]

The above is relevant because there are eggs in Chiang Mai.

Every so often I see another reason to mention my favorite feature of the ThaiVisa forum: the Ignore User function.

Using it can enhance your value of ThaiVisa by making chronically off-topic posters disappear from your screen forever.

(And, if you wish, make my posts disappear, too.)

If anyone wants help using the "Ignore" feature here, I'll be happy to assist.

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

[Oneman]

For those who are trying to avoid MSG,... go to a stall and ask for the papaya salad Mai chalot and Mai prick (if you hate it spicy).

That works, but not everyone can get the Thai pronounciation just right.

So I made the card shown below in Thai, phonetic Thai, and English.

Small enough to keep in a wallet.

Just show to waitress/cook, and point.

And I added one for "no salt", too.

Not a problem for me, but many people want to cut down on salt.

If you want more items, send me a PM, and I'll prepare and post here as I have time.

(Fluent Thai speakers, please check my spelling -- I'm still struggling with learning to write.)

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

Edited August 15, 2009 by Oneman

[jazzbo]

According to forum rules, I am not allowed to call anyone an idiot.

[jazzbo]

"A lot of people feel that some saturated fats such as coconut and palm oil are actually quite healthy. It is only the hydrogonated types that are unhealthy."

"I know coconut milk is a saturated fat but avoiding its use is difficult to square with the fact that Thailand has very nearly the lowest rate of Heart Disease among most developing countries and of course, much lower than developed ones. I just love coconut milk in my curries."

Age-standardized mortality rate for cardiovascular diseases (per 100,000 population)World Health Organization WHO (2002 data)

USA 188

Indonesia 361

Thailand 199

Cook Islands 326

Fiji 470

Malaysia 274

Marshall Islands 526

Micronesia (Federation) 410

Philippines 336

Samoa 417

Solomon Islands 409

Tonga 363

Tuvulu 541

Vanuatu 409

But I do know about orange juice -- often added salt, and sugar, too.

So do I. My family's trade marketing (not advertising) agency where I worked for many years used to have the Florida Department of Citrus (FDOC) as a client. Also, Nestle, Pillsbury, Dole, Hormel, California Raisin Advisory Board, ....

[Drew Aitch]

There have been a lot of interesting contributions to this thread. There is an old saying that anything in moderation can do you no harm. Then there's another which says that too much of anything is bad for you – even if it's good (too much of a good thing?).

I guess the point I'm trying to make (without too much microanalysis), is this; Can we find places in Chiang Mai were a good well balanced and tasty meal can be had without worrying what's in the food, or missing from the food?

I assume most of us know what defines 'good foods' to include things such as nuts, white meats, fish, eggs, fruit & veg, leafy greens, 'smart carbs', and so on and so forth, and although these things can be found easily in CM's markets, supermarkets, and restaurants, I wonder if it's possible to consume them healthily without having to cook at home?

And finally, is it all just a hoo-hah about nothing I wonder? I know of one lady who reached the grand old age of 86 and smoked all day every day since she was 14. She ate greasy stodgy meals all of her life, and always followed her main course with heavy sugary deserts covered in thick custard.

So are we really digging our graves with our own knife and fork, and are people really getting sick and losing quality of life purely based on poor diet? Or perhaps we should just eat what we want when we want it, and worry about more important things in life! Hmm! I can see a book coming out of this!

May the debate continue…

Aitch

[Asmerom]

Ulysses:

"A lot of people feel that some saturated fats such as coconut and palm oil are actually quite healthy. It is only the hydrogonated types that are unhealthy."

Asmerom:

"I know coconut milk is a saturated fat but avoiding its use is difficult to square with the fact that Thailand has very nearly the lowest rate of Heart Disease among most developing countries and of course, much lower than developed ones. I just love coconut milk in my curries."

Age-standardized mortality rate for cardiovascular diseases (per 100,000 population)World Health Organization WHO (2002 data)

USA 188

Indonesia 361

Thailand 199

Cook Islands 326

Fiji 470

Malaysia 274

Marshall Islands 526

Micronesia (Federation) 410

Philippines 336

Samoa 417

Solomon Islands 409

Tonga 363

Tuvulu 541

Vanuatu 409

I just looked up this address :http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4478 where the statistics don't seem to agree with yours !!!

The American Heart Association says : In 2005 Cardiovascular Disesease mortality was 35% of all deaths. 1 in 2.8

In 2005 the final death rate for Cardiovascular Disease in the USA was 324.7 per 100,000 white males. This contrasts somewhat with your quote of 188 which I think refers solely to CORONARY heart disease which is only part of the whole picture of CARDIOVASCULAR Disease.

Statistics,statistics statistics

[jazzbo]

Fine. So the good folks at the American Heart Association and The World Health Organization have different bases and assumptions for their statistical models. Big surprise. Let's invite them both to lunch.

My point on the coconut consumption is that all those who say that countries with high coconut consumption do not have increased heart/cardiovascular risks is bogus. ...And when they say that coconut has been used in those Polynesian societies for centuries I say "Yes. Back in the good old days when life expectancy was 27."

And to the esteemed Kuhn Aitch who started this thread Calling All Nutritionists... if you want to find healthy foods in Chiang Mai or anywhere else in Thailand, you maybe have to establish what IS a healthy food... My relevancy on that is that sometimes the common wisdom as to what is or is not a healthy food can be off-base. And that many persons who claim to have medical allergies to foods are sometimes just aversions or dislikes. And eggs are probably more healthy than a 3 per week diet would imply -- and not from the Egg Industry Board.

I have provided third party data for these observations and while you may disagree that are not MY personal opinions which is what some here want to proffer as gospel... I'll stop here so things do not get personal.

[jazzbo]

Yes Kuhn Drew -- And then there is Julia Child who may have consumed literally TONS of butter and heavy cream in her lifetime and lived to the age of 91 (August 15, 1912 – August 13, 2004)

[jazzbo]

Another Bugaboo: Shrimp and Cholesterol (again from George Mateljan Foundation)

BTW The George Mateljan Foundation, a not-for-profit foundation with no commercial interests, is a new force for change to help make a healthier you and a healthier world.

Shrimp -- Health Benefits

Shrimp are anything but small in their nutrient density. Our food ranking system qualified shrimp as an excellent source of selenium and unusually low-fat, low-calorie protein--a four ounce serving of shrimp supplies 23.7 grams of protein (that's 47.4% of the daily value for protein) for a mere 112 calories and less than a gram of fat. Shrimp also emerged as a very good source of vitamin D and vitamin B12.

Shrimp Provide Large Cardiovascular Benefits

Many people are confused about the fat and cholesterol content of shrimp. Shrimp is very low in total fat, yet it has a high cholesterol content (about 200 milligrams in 3.5 ounces, or 12 large boiled shrimp). Some people have avoided eating shrimp precisely because of its high cholesterol content. However, based on research involving shrimp and blood cholesterol levels, avoidance of shrimp for this reason does not seem justified.

...

In just a four-ounce serving of shrimp, you'll receive 28.2% of the daily value for vitamin B12. Vitamin B12 is one of the nutrients needed to keep levels of homocysteine, a molecule that can directly damage blood vessel walls and is considered a significant risk factor for cardiovascular disease, low. In addition, shrimp are also a good source of cardio-protective omega-3 fatty acids, noted for their anti-inflammatory effects and ability to prevent the formation of blood clots. Four ounces of shrimp provide 14.8% of your daily need for these protective fats.

Note: I like to buy the frozen export quality shrimp rather than the fresh stuff in the markets.

[jazzbo]

... And finally for the day, as I've been accused of being chronically off-topic, here is one really off-topic (maybe) One of my favorite seens from the Woody Allen movie Annie Hall. Screenplay:

ADULT ALVY

(Pointing)

Look, look, there's-there's that one

over there, that's Joey Nichols, he

was my-

(Young Alvy stands next to Joey

Nichols, who's sitting in one of

the easy chairs. They smile at

each other; people and noise all

around)

-father's friend. He was always bothering

me when I was a kid.

JOEY

Joey Nichols.

(Laughing)

See. Nichols. See, Nichols!

(Joey shows young Alvy his cuff

links and a tie pin, which are

made from nickels, as Alvy stands

with hands on hips, unconcerned.

Joey then slaps his band to his

forehead and puts a nickel on

his forehead)

Yuh see, nickels! You can always

remember my name, just think of Joey

Five Cents.

(Laughing)

That's me. Joey Five Cents!

Joey grabs Alvy's cheeks and pinches them.

YOUNG ALVY

(Turning away)

What an asshol_e!

[daoyai]

Fine. So the good folks at the American Heart Association and The World Health Organization have different bases and assumptions for their statistical models. Big surprise. Let's invite them both to lunch.

My point on the coconut consumption is that all those who say that countries with high coconut consumption do not have increased heart/cardiovascular risks is bogus. ...And when they say that coconut has been used in those Polynesian societies for centuries I say "Yes. Back in the good old days when life expectancy was 27."

And to the esteemed Kuhn Aitch who started this thread Calling All Nutritionists... if you want to find healthy foods in Chiang Mai or anywhere else in Thailand, you maybe have to establish what IS a healthy food... My relevancy on that is that sometimes the common wisdom as to what is or is not a healthy food can be off-base. And that many persons who claim to have medical allergies to foods are sometimes just aversions or dislikes. And eggs are probably more healthy than a 3 per week diet would imply -- and not from the Egg Industry Board.

I have provided third party data for these observations and while you may disagree that are not MY personal opinions which is what some here want to proffer as gospel... I'll stop here so things do not get personal.

The current diet of the countries mentioned is much different from "traditional" in many cases. As I stated, coconut milk combined with diets rich in animal fat is a killer. The introduction of canned fatty meats since WW2 (to many pacific islands) and the shipping of cheap pork products etc.

I read an article in Lancet (journal of the AMA) from a few years ago, written by a Dr. that was working in Bangkok in the 1950s. I don't remember the field he was working in but do remember that it involved him performing autopsies, he noticed that amongsts the ethnic Thais he saw almost no arterial plaque or heart disease from individuals reguardless of age, he did however notice the opposite in subjects from the ethnic Indians living in BKK. This got his interest up so he investigated the difference in diets of the two groups. He found that the Thais often ate coconut milk curries, soups and deserts but ate very little pork and little if any beef. The Indians however ate curries that included very fatty lamb of mutton. In Hawaii where obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart diease are rampant among the indigenous population, diet studdies have found that the traditional diet of fish, taro, seaweed and coconut as the primary fat source leads to greater health and longer lives. Pacific islanders have never had a life expetancy of 27, THAT is obsurd.

Edited August 16, 2009 by daoyai

[jazzbo]

I was being facetious. Maybe. In 1850 the life expectancy of a white American Male was 38.3 years *... 200 years ago in Polynesia, I guess you're right. For the moment, I haven't the foggiest... I have other data but so what. So, YOU WIN. And by the way, I LOVE coconut milk curries and buy a package of 10 baby coconuts each week at the fruit market.

* http://www.infoplease(dot)com/ipa/A0005140.html

[Asmerom]

As I stated, coconut milk combined with diets rich in animal fat is a killer.

........ he noticed that amongsts the ethnic Thais he saw almost no arterial plaque or heart disease from individuals reguardless of age,

He found that the Thais often ate coconut milk curries, soups and deserts .............

I need help in understanding the statement that "coconut milk ...............is a killer', along with the subsequent doctor's quoted findings that it certainly wasn't. Do you not mean to say that "animal fats are a killer". Its a bit confusing or maybe simply incorrect to phrase it the way you do which bluntly asserts that ," coconut milk is a killer". Its NOT nitpicking. The contradiction needs clarifying.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Asmerom

[Ulysses G.]

If everything that I read is correct. Coconut milk is healthy. It is hydrogonated coconut fat - transfat - that is the killer.

[daoyai]

My understanding is that the saturated fat from coconut milk binds with animal fat to clog the arteries, so it is the combined substances that cause the health problems.

[daoyai]

That is the reason that a dish like Tom Kha, that has c-milk and a very small ammount of lean chicken is supposedly ok.

[daoyai]

If everything that I read is correct. Coconut milk is healthy. It is hydrogonated coconut fat - transfat - that is the killer.

Like that popular American product called cool-whip, a supposedly "healthy" alternative to whipped cream. Give me the real stuff, if I die earlier so be it!

[Priceless]

My understanding is that the saturated fat from coconut milk binds with animal fat to clog the arteries, so it is the combined substances that cause the health problems.

Have you got a source for this "understanding" or is it from your own repertoire

BTW on the earlier discussion on MSG; Wikipedia has a long list of references on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid_(flavor)

/ Priceless

[jazzbo]

He gets his understanding from" Lancet (journal of the AMA)" which means that JAMA (the Journal of the American Medical Association, published weekly since 1883) must be from Burkina Faso. Last I checked, there was a Lancet published in the UK since 1823 founded by Thomas Wakley.

[daoyai]

My understanding is that the saturated fat from coconut milk binds with animal fat to clog the arteries, so it is the combined substances that cause the health problems.

Have you got a source for this "understanding" or is it from your own repertoire

BTW on the earlier discussion on MSG; Wikipedia has a long list of references on the subject here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid_(flavor)

/ Priceless

Good question, something I heard or read somewhere, supported by observation. and study of tropical diet. so yes part of my cumulative repetoire.

[jazzbo]

"... supported by observation" Yea! I saw that movie too! Called Fantastic Voyage. Loved Raquel Welch.

[daoyai]

He gets his understanding from" Lancet (journal of the AMA)" which means that JAMA (the Journal of the American Medical Association, published weekly since 1883) must be from Burkina Faso. Last I checked, there was a Lancet published in the UK since 1823 founded by Thomas Wakley.

Right you are, pardon my confusion, haven't done serious reading in a long time, I do like to keep up on the latest coconut milk creations from Burkina Faso though where they have recently uped the life expectancy to 37.

[sabaijai]

"A lot of people feel that some saturated fats such as coconut and palm oil are actually quite healthy. It is only the hydrogonated types that are unhealthy."

"I know coconut milk is a saturated fat but avoiding its use is difficult to square with the fact that Thailand has very nearly the lowest rate of Heart Disease among most developing countries and of course, much lower than developed ones. I just love coconut milk in my curries."

Age-standardized mortality rate for cardiovascular diseases (per 100,000 population)World Health Organization WHO (2002 data)

USA 188

Indonesia 361

Thailand 199

Cook Islands 326

Fiji 470

Malaysia 274

Marshall Islands 526

Micronesia (Federation) 410

Philippines 336

Samoa 417

Solomon Islands 409

Tonga 363

Tuvulu 541

Vanuatu 409

But I do know about orange juice -- often added salt, and sugar, too.

So do I. My family's trade marketing (not advertising) agency where I worked for many years used to have the Florida Department of Citrus (FDOC) as a client. Also, Nestle, Pillsbury, Dole, Hormel, California Raisin Advisory Board, ....

A simple correlation does not logically imply causation. There are any number of other factors, besides the presence of coconut in the diet, that could account for these figures. One that comes to mine is obesity, which in many Pacific island nations is mainly caused by over-consumption of starchy foods.

[jazzbo]

Oh give me a break, Kuhn S. -- there is a lot of coconut oil proponent verbiage quoted elsewhere in this topic that countries with high rates of coconut consumption have low rates of heart disease. Those are the figures from the World Health Organization database. If you want to quibble, do it next time you are in Geneva... or here is their telephone number: Telephone: + 41 22 791 21 11

[Drew Aitch]

Talking of Milks, i see there's a thread currently about a Soy Milk machine which got me thinking. Soy milk is supposedly very good for the health from what i've read, but i think there's a difference between that which is made from instant powder, the long life options found in supermarkets, and the real Real Mckoy (found where?).

It's all available in Thailand and pretty cheap too. Maybe Soy milk is a good one to add to the list of local health foods (and beverages)?

Aitch

[Ulysses G.]

A lot of reseach suggests that soy products are not very good for health unless they have been fermented. I would suggest brown rice milk instead.

[Galong]

A lot of reseach suggests that soy products are not very good for health unless they have been fermented. I would suggest brown rice milk instead.

Further research into the nature of natural raw food suggests that as most foods, especially in the plant world, in their raw form contain enzymes that aid in the proper digestion of said foods, it makes sense to eat more foods that are not processed at all. That maximizes the bioavailability of the food, thus making digestions of the nutrients as efficient as possible.

In keeping with this train of thought, I don't really see how fermenting (breaking down into a simple sugar) increases the 'health' properties of the product. I'm not saying that fermented soy milk isn't worth drinking, but merely that the maximum benefit might be available in a different form.

[Ulysses G.]

Miso soup and tempeh are supposed to be much healthier.

[Drew Aitch]

I would suggest brown rice milk instead.

I've never heard of that G. Where can it be bought locally and how would you consume it, i.e. drink only, with serial etc

Cheers

Aitch

[Ulysses G.]

I understand that they sell both sweetened and unsweetened brown rice milk at the Vegetarian Council in Chiang Mai and it is quite inexpensive. I usually mix it with whole grain or sweeten it with honey or palm sugar and drink it, but you can use it in a lot of ways.

I noticed in the newspaper that they have just started selling it in boxes like soy milk. The brand is V Fit.