Over 1,000 Red-shirts To File Thaksin Pardon Petition Monday

[frodo]

Koo82 says the Red is completely peaceful and probably wouldn't mind escorting your friend to prove the point.

Great, I was really worried for a while but since they are only there campaigning for democracy and freedom, so no doubt my friend will be most welcome to show up wearing whatever he chooses so long as he is there to push democracy.

What a relief!

After viewing the pics from Churchill's link, I must ask myself, "Are these the real reds?" Not only are they completely peaceful, but real reds never wear masks or cover their faces. Tell your friend to beware, if they're wearing a mask or covering their faces, it will more than likely be a "fake red" and their could be trouble.

[basjke]

After viewing the pics from Churchill's link, I must ask myself, "Are these the real reds?" Not only are they completely peaceful, but real reds never wear masks or cover their faces. Tell your friend to beware, if they're wearing a mask or covering their faces, it will more than likely be a "fake red" and their could be trouble.

Is that a a yellow shine I see in the picture.

[frodo]

After viewing the pics from Churchill's link, I must ask myself, "Are these the real reds?" Not only are they completely peaceful, but real reds never wear masks or cover their faces. Tell your friend to beware, if they're wearing a mask or covering their faces, it will more than likely be a "fake red" and their could be trouble.

Is that a a yellow shine I see in the picture.

[animatic]

Well it certainly gives me a primary color fix.

RGB...

I guess Green has been taken by some other naturist people,

Wait that's PINK n Tan... Naturalist people yeah that's better.

Black n Tan is something altogether different, and spoken for.. no going there.

If we wear Levis Blue jeans are we swearing for Newin? Too hot for them anyway.

But being very Green can start a fight with 'some' people anyway.

I kind of resent having my clothing choices limited by political machinations.

Even as I don't wear red, yellow or blue that much here.

Red, White and Blue on a farang gets you yelled at for Bush and/or Brown.

The only ones getting a free pass are Goths in Basic Black.

Well getting on towards Labor Day can't even where white shoes or gloves then...

What will I do for a sartorial fix this fall?

Edited August 17, 2009 by animatic

[Thai at Heart]

Koo82 says the Red is completely peaceful and probably wouldn't mind escorting your friend to prove the point.

Great, I was really worried for a while but since they are only there campaigning for democracy and freedom, so no doubt my friend will be most welcome to show up wearing whatever he chooses so long as he is there to push democracy.

What a relief!

After viewing the pics from Churchill's link, I must ask myself, "Are these the real reds?" Not only are they completely peaceful, but real reds never wear masks or cover their faces. Tell your friend to beware, if they're wearing a mask or covering their faces, it will more than likely be a "fake red" and their could be trouble.

Obviously they have been heeding the well distributed advice about swine flu from the current government. Unfortunately, the message that their petition was illegal hasn't got through. Nice to see that at least one of the organisations in the country is able to follow simple protocol and has forwarded the petition to the justice ministry for evaluation.

I wonder if their are any lights on in the justice ministry? Are they burning the midnight oil?

Edited August 17, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[noahvail]

I'm curious about the dispersal of the group of red shirts that had gathered to support the delivery of the petitions. Last night the television news spent an inordinate amount of time about the 'crackdown' at the airport. From the amount of time devoted to the airport, I might have thought it was a slow news day. But I saw nothing about the dispersal; likewise in two english language newspapers.

Does no news equal a peaceful dispersal? If so, was it news that it was peaceful?

Also, the number of supporters had earlier been predicted to be around 100,000. The only number I read prior to the delivery was 10,000. Has an official number been reported?

[hammered]

I'm curious about the dispersal of the group of red shirts that had gathered to support the delivery of the petitions. Last night the television news spent an inordinate amount of time about the 'crackdown' at the airport. From the amount of time devoted to the airport, I might have thought it was a slow news day. But I saw nothing about the dispersal; likewise in two english language newspapers.

Does no news equal a peaceful dispersal? If so, was it news that it was peaceful?

Also, the number of supporters had earlier been predicted to be around 100,000. The only number I read prior to the delivery was 10,000. Has an official number been reported?

A few newspapers mention 20 or 30K for numbers. There was a lso a lot of bad weather that probably drove some off early or made numbering difficult and maybe didnt enocurage journos. The state media were never going to overdo this one with it being sensitive.

Apparently Newin also asked his blue shirts not to turn out so there were virtually none of those around.

An anti-climatic day for those who expected some fun.

[Jingthing]

An anti-climatic day for those who expected some fun.

Another huge political victory for Abhisit. The reds built up huge expectations and produced the excitement and consequence of a Saturday night haircut. Bravo Abhisit, playing these troublemakers like a violin. Thaksin, and his rude rouge cheeky illegal petition headed like a freight train for the dustbin of history.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Jingthing

[Thai at Heart]

An anti-climatic day for those who expected some fun.

Another huge political victory for Abhisit. The reds built up huge expectations and produced the excitement and consequence of a Saturday night haircut. Bravo Abhisit, playing these troublemakers like a violin. Thaksin, and his rude rouge cheeky illegal petition headed like a freight train for the dustbin of history.

Maybe a partial victory.

He will probably be the fall guy that has to make the announcement that it doesn't pass the government's muster.

[hammered]

It is an interesting one. The governments best ploy would be to tell the public it breaches certain technical things but to pass it on without a formal recomendation anyway.

Politically that may not be an option however.

Another possibility is that Newin and co get jailed before all the names are checked and consdiering the numbers that timeframe is possible. If Newin and co are in jail they could then apply for a pardon humbly and apologizing for their misdeeds, which would apply additional political spin and pushback.

[churchill]

Pheu Thai MPs say he is Thaksin's relative so petition is valid

Pheu Thai Party MP Surapong Towichakchaikul said he is a distant relative of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and he had signed the Thaksin pardon petition.

Surapong said the petition was valid because he, a relative, had signed the petition.

Earlier, the government said a petition must be signed and submitted by a relative.

Surapong said his aunt is married to Sathien Shinawatra, an uncle of Thaksin.

Surapong said the petition was also signed by Prakit Shinawatra, who is a cousin of Thaksin.

Surapong said it was the first time that he disclosed the information that he is a relative of Thaksin. He has been keeping it secret for fear that someone might attach him as using connection to gain a position in the party.

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/30110...9;s-relative-so

-- The Nation 18/08/09

[Thai at Heart]

It is an interesting one. The governments best ploy would be to tell the public it breaches certain technical things but to pass it on without a formal recomendation anyway.

Politically that may not be an option however.

Another possibility is that Newin and co get jailed before all the names are checked and consdiering the numbers that timeframe is possible. If Newin and co are in jail they could then apply for a pardon humbly and apologizing for their misdeeds, which would apply additional political spin and pushback.

Sending it on without a formal recommendation. Wow, I hadn't considered that, but that would be putting the system in a really big pickle I reckon.

They need to find a way to keep the petition away from the next step. If it goes forward at all, it could get a lot of very important people very concerned about how the government is failing to control the situation.

[webfact]

Surapong said it was the first time that he disclosed the information that he is a relative of Thaksin. He has been keeping it secret for fear that someone might attach him as using connection to gain a position in the party.

Why wasn't that revealed earlier? In that very moment the "petition" hangs in the balance suddenly a distant relative shows up.

Just wondering ...

/reason for edit: quote added later from BKK post article to make my posting more transparent

Edited August 18, 2009 by webfact

[Thai at Heart]

Just got an SMS from Bangkok Post stating that it may take 60 days to determine the legitimacy of the petition.

Saplings, petitions all moved off into the distance.

How much stuff can they put under this rug?

[hammered]

It is an interesting one. The governments best ploy would be to tell the public it breaches certain technical things but to pass it on without a formal recomendation anyway.

Politically that may not be an option however.

Another possibility is that Newin and co get jailed before all the names are checked and consdiering the numbers that timeframe is possible. If Newin and co are in jail they could then apply for a pardon humbly and apologizing for their misdeeds, which would apply additional political spin and pushback.

Sending it on without a formal recommendation. Wow, I hadn't considered that, but that would be putting the system in a really big pickle I reckon.

They need to find a way to keep the petition away from the next step. If it goes forward at all, it could get a lot of very important people very concerned about how the government is failing to control the situation.

This is of course conventional wisdom and I dont doubt that there are very powerful people who expect Abhisit and government to technically stymie the petition. If they dont they could very well risk a coup. However, politically Abhisit would be well served by forwarding it with no recommendation. This is getting into uncharted waters and the cartoon in todays Post when shown to any Thai person gets an "exactly" kind of response. What Thaksin and the reds have now started and the level to which it has now been taken cannot be disappeared.

It is likely that the government will technically out the petition as expected leaving the divisions worse than ever and questions hanging over things as we head into big changes over the next few years. This one is unpredictable. Abhisit is surviving right now by sitting calm and relying on the fact that none of the groupings have enough power to risk going for a knock out blow while relying on what peopel call his "soft power", but how long can that situation persist and how much of this "power" does he have? and in the meantime those on the outside - Thaksin et al just need to stir things up and create tension and doubt and await a reaction. To date they havent got one but will that continue. Those on the outside need a change exactly what it is wont worry them as any change will create opportunity which they dont have now.

[Jingthing]

Its not going anywhere. It will rot.

You don't ask for a pardon for someone who has fled the country like a coward. I think you are vastly overestimating the political cost of letting Thaksin continue to stew in his self imposed exile. Only the hard core true believers have any respect for Thaksin the man anymore. His stock goes down even further on each passing day.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Jingthing

[hammered]

Its not going anywhere. It will rot.

But where will it rot? Are the government going to lock it up in the justice ministry and say it has all been done wrong or will they check the names and pass it on or will they check the names and find some inconsistencies and then pass it back to the red shirts. Nobody wants to hold a hot potato for very long.

The government by overtly stymying it run the risk of annoying the upcountry dudes who support Thaksin, and that means their plans of reconcilliation grow dimmer and division just enhances Thaksin's hand and weakens theirs. This little hot potato has turned into a poison chalice. There are going to be a lot of angry people around on both extremes and a very nervous military

[Jingthing]

No, they will just announce that it will not be passed along and take the short term hit from the violent fanatics. The reason is that the very idea of it is improper and the vast majority of Thais know that is true. Where some pieces of paper end up materially is immaterial. Its not the Magna Carta ...

Edited August 18, 2009 by Jingthing

[hammered]

No, they will just announce that it will not be passed along and take the short term hit from the violent fanatics. The reason is that the very idea of it is improper and the vast majority of Thais know that is true. Where some pieces of paper end up materially is immaterial. Its not the Magna Carta ...

You may be right. Im not sure about the vast majority of Thais. That is difficult to judge.

I just have visions of some 'aging untalented but well connected/well familied ex-pop/TV star please dont forget me now I dont look so good wannabe politician type' claiming we didnt have any choice but to go beserk/burn/maim/kill as they wouldnt let us appeal to our King.

[Thai at Heart]

No, they will just announce that it will not be passed along and take the short term hit from the violent fanatics. The reason is that the very idea of it is improper and the vast majority of Thais know that is true. Where some pieces of paper end up materially is immaterial. Its not the Magna Carta ...

There is every chance that it wouldn't be violent "hit" per se. I wouldn't assume anything concerning the next steps in this process.

It isn't about where the papers end up, it is about who and in what capacity is seen to block it. If the justice ministry blocks it, it should make a very clear and public statement as to why. The Dems have to make it seem as though the process is absolutely untouched by them. This is difficult but not impossible.

Firstly they need to find a completely a-political committee to check the petition. Whether that can be found I don't know.

The justice ministry should block it, and qualify the statement by saying, please feel free to petition again.

If they pass it up the chain with a statement that they don't approve, they will have turned the system on it's head.

[Jingthing]

please feel free to petition again.

I don't get that. He dodged prison. A petition is typically made for people who are in prison and have expressed guilt for their crimes and remorse. I realize Abhisit is walking a tightrope and tightropes being tightropes, it is easy to fall off. However, one of the mistakes he can make is being too weak against an obvious attempt at violent revolution.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Jingthing

[Scott]

The gov't's big mistake was to start their anti-petition drive. This tainted them. Had they quietly worked behind the scenes to come up with a method of disposing of this petition, and not taken such a strong stand, they could accomplish the goal. At the same time, the people filing the petition could feel heard.

Whether the petition should make it's way to the highest level should be a matter of law. That law needs to be cited and stated. If it's not a matter of law, then perhaps if/when the constitution is reviewed and amended this is one of the things that should be put into it. That is, of course, also a touchy area, but one that may need to be addressed.

[Thai at Heart]

please feel free to petition again.

I don't get that. He dodged prison. A petition is typically made for people who are in prison and have expressed guilt for their crimes and remorse. I realize Abhisit is walking a tightrope and tightropes being tightropes, it is easy to fall off. However, one of the mistakes he can make is being too weak against an obvious attempt at violent revolution.

If you want a riot, try telling the people they can't or shouldn't petition or that the petition they have just submitted has been discarded for some abitrary reason. The system dealt with Thaksin, and it will deal with this petition also, the world will turn. The right to petition is long and trusted in Thailand. The government of the day shouldn't tell the people not to.

I don't think giving an answer of "Oi, you lot out there, stop petitioning" will help one bit.

Just as Abhisit is sitting where he is because of strict and correct interpretation of the law, so the best course of action is for the current petition is to use strict and correct legal interpretation. Being above it is so much better than being in it.

[Jingthing]

Fine, petition the GOVERNMENT. Do peaceful protests. Demand a new election. Those are all legit. Their actions of late, not legit.

I would agree Thailand needs to grow up from this pattern of coups and mob rule from any and all sides. On the other hand, the government clearly did not have the structure to properly deal with a criminally corrupt ex-PM, to remove him, to jail him, and to prevent him from controlling puppets ...

Edited August 18, 2009 by Jingthing

[Plus]

Abhisit might spend a day or two delibirating what could possibly happen, come up with nothing, and simply forward the petition to the nearest recycling shop. Reds knew very fuc_king well that if the petitition ends with government they stand no chance.

Abhisit is not going to score any brownies with them by disposing the petition via proper legal channels either.

So why bother?

>>

Ok, he might request Justice Ministry to set some official committee, start confirming the signatures to find if any of Thaksin's relatives signed it, spend two months on it, then come up with some other explanation - like Thaksin should be serving his sentence to be eligible for pardon. They might even take it to the court, or Council of State or whatever.

Reds apparently had no plan B whatsoever.

Nation reports they postponed the submission to exactly match delayed reading of rubber verdict. Maybe reds were hoping for blue shirts to start some trouble. Nothing happened. And they were left there like total morons who arrived too late and had no purpose for hanging around.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Plus

[Thai at Heart]

Fine, petition the GOVERNMENT. Do peaceful protests. Demand a new election. Those are all legit. Their actions of late, not legit.

I would agree Thailand needs to grow up from this pattern of coups and mob rule from any and all sides. On the other hand, the government clearly did not have the structure to properly deal with a criminally corrupt ex-PM, to remove him, to jail him, and to prevent him from controlling puppets ...

Well the process for removing ex-PM's of many ilks had been coups.

The process for petitioning is that it is submitted to the Royal Secretary and he gets the government's opinion. That is the legit way, and I don't see that changing. It is a power that lies with the highest institution not the government of the day. Pure, simple and very elegant actually.

[Jingthing]

Maybe reds were hoping for blue shirts to start some trouble. Nothing happened. And they were left there like total morons who arrived and had no purpose for hanging around.

Yes of course. Their latest stunt is a total flop. Good riddance.

[teetersb]

I've been following the Petition thread, but have not seen the text of the Petition, yet. Yesterday the Bangkok Post had an article in the Politics section and I found a link to an English translation of the Petition and I was wondering if SL, or George could post the articles here? The web address is: http://bangkokpost.com/news/local/22219/the-petition-in-full . There are some interesting things in here that I'm sure many posters will find to debate.

PS: Sorry if this "Petition" has already been posted, but I hadn't seen it until I read this.

Cheers

[brahmburgers]

I agree with Scott that the gov't counter petition was silly and may have added credence to the original petition initiative.

The gov't is stalling right now, for 3 basic reasons:

1. it wants to 'ice the kicker' - an American Football term for stalling time, so the field goal kicker will lose some of his verve, and <deleted> the kick.

2. it doesn't know the best course of action.

3. it wants to shield HM's office from becoming politicized - so it will do what it thinks it has to do to keep the petition decision from getting to the highest level.

As for legal grounds, there appear to be clear cut rules that weren't adhered to: The convicted person hasn't served any time, he hasn't shown remorse, and the petition wasn't submitted by one of his direct family members.

The gov't should dismiss the petition right away for those reasons (and other reasons, if they have them). The Reds should have known for weeks that their petition wouldn't be approved.

There should also be some consolation, as a show of goodwill. Perhaps a reissuance of T's red-colored Thai passport (not his diplomatic one). T is going to travel at will anyway, so why the charade?

Edited August 19, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Thai at Heart]

I agree with Scott that the gov't counter petition was silly and may have added credence to the original petition initiative.

The gov't is stalling right now, for 3 basic reasons:

1. it wants to 'ice the kicker' - an American Football term for stalling time, so the field goal kicker will lose some of his verve, and <deleted> the kick.

2. it doesn't know the best course of action.

3. it wants to shield HM's office from becoming politicized - so it will do what it thinks it has to do to keep the petition decision from getting to the highest level.

As for legal grounds, there appear to be clear cut rules that weren't adhered to: The convicted person hasn't served any time, he hasn't shown remorse, and the petition wasn't submitted by one of his direct family members.

The gov't should dismiss the petition right away for those reasons (and other reasons, if they have them). The Reds should have known for weeks that their petition wouldn't be approved.

There should also be some consolation, as a show of goodwill. Perhaps a reissuance of T's red-colored Thai passport (not his diplomatic one). T is going to travel at will anyway, so why the charade?

Point 2 is the most worrying.

I hope they have a plan to handle this. I doubt they will pass on the petition because it probably doesn't meet the criteria, although by couching it in the language of a request to alleviate suffering, the UDD has made it more complicated.

Maybe it would be best if the HM office turns it down with the statement "We cannot accept this petition because it doesn't meet the legal criteria, however, we are aware that at this time, the people are in times of economic distress and I have told my government that they must focus on alleviating the suffering of all my people with particular reference to all the rural areas and most impoverished people".

I do however hope they have some answers to some simple questions that the army will no doubt ask.

a. "What are you going to do about this?"

b. "Are you going to be able to turn down the petition and handle the fall out?"