Aed (automated External Defibrillator)

[Nordlys]

One of my company employees collapsed in the factory during work and died later just two days ago of cardiac arrest (or heart attack) and I'm considering buying/leasing AED to be installed in my company as we are located out of town and not anywhere near a decent hospital. Anyone knows where I can buy/lease such an equipment in Bangkok?

Also is there a hospital that can dispatch a specialist to demonstrate and train our employees in performing CPR?

Edited August 13, 2009 by Nordlys

[Sheryl]

If you contact the local office of the Thai Red Cross they ought to be able to provide CPR and other basic first aid training course. Usually they have offices near the Provincial Hospital in each province.

There is also a private firm that offers this (as well as training in AED use), but of course that would be more expensive:

http://www.emergencyasia.com/content/view/23/27/

For purchase/lease of AED, try this company whioch I believe makes the Lifepak brand:

Medtronic (Thailand) Limited

10th floor, Q.House convent building

38 Convent road, Silom

Bangrak, Bangkok 10500 Thailand

Tel: +66 (0) 2632 0557 - 60

Fax: +66 (0) 2632 0565

or the previously mentioned firm might be able to suggest source, since they do training in its use

[Nordlys]

Thank you very much for all that info, Sheryl.

I will contact both the TRC and Medtroic at soonest possible.

[simon43]

and (AFAIK), do make sure that the only person who uses the AED is a qualified Thai doctor. Us mere mortals (Thai and 'farang') are legally not allowed to use an AED unless we are registered/qualified Thai doctors.....

EmergencyAsia is a company owned by a guy called Peter, who is the foreign marketing manager (and qualified doctor) at Phuket International Hospital. But last time I spoke with him, he was rather busy to provide these courses. (Do check to see if this situation has changed). Even if you fight shy of buying/leasing the AED for legal reasons, it would certainly be a benefit to get your staff trained in CPR.

Simon

Edited August 14, 2009 by simon43

[Sheryl]

Simon,

Can you give a source for this law? I have never heard of it.

The entire point of an AED, as opposed to an ordinary defibrillator, is that it is programmed to automatically diagnose cardiac arrhtymias and defibrillate if necessary, and thus can be used in absence of medical help.

If a doctor or nurse were going to be on hand, there would be no advantage to AED over an ordinary defibrillator.

Even in the US, where simple antibiotics require a physician prescription, there is no prohibition on laty persons operating an AED (although of course they should be trained in use of the device).

[phetaroi]

Simon,

Can you give a source for this law? I have never heard of it.

The entire point of an AED, as opposed to an ordinary defibrillator, is that it is programmed to automatically diagnose cardiac arrhtymias and defibrillate if necessary, and thus can be used in absence of medical help.

If a doctor or nurse were going to be on hand, there would be no advantage to AED over an ordinary defibrillator.

Even in the US, where simple antibiotics require a physician prescription, there is no prohibition on laty persons operating an AED (although of course they should be trained in use of the device).

While I cannot comment on Thai law, I can verify what Sheryl is saying in regard to the use of AEDs in the States. Our very large school system installed multiple AEDs in every school. Staff received minimal training (by minimal, I mean less training than we received about giving shots or epipens). The AEDs were not locked, and I think there were five in our building. We never used one in the last two years I was there, although occasionally a high-pitched alarm would go off when a student would bump into the case and the door would pop open. The wonderful feature about these machines is that the computer in the machine determines if a stimulus is needed and how much. It takes virtually no human knowledge of how to use it beyond where to place it on the body. In the States you will also see them in places such as subway systems shopping malls, and other public places.

[simon43]

Sheryl, there was a thread about this last year. I was first advised about this law by Peter at Phuket International Hospital, and it was subsequently confirmed in that previous thread as well as by other medical professionals in Thailand - both Thai and non-Thai.

Yes, I understand absolutely that an AED is just that - automatic, and a complete idiot can safely operate it and just follow the spoken instructions.

BTW, I have an AED in my emergency first response kit in my car - and I will not give a second thought about using it. (er... which means that I WILL use it if required...)

Simon

PS - This is my understanding why very few hotels have AEDs - only some of the 5 stars have an AED on the premises, and that is because they also have a qualified Thai doctor on the payroll who is authorised to use the AED.

PPS - I just found the old thread re AEDs - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Illegal-Hear...ai-t241146.html

To be fair, no-one has yet been able to reference the Thai legislation which states that an AED can only be used by a qualified Thai doctor, other than comment that Thailand has no Good Samaritan' law. I will ask Peter if he has a reference to the legislation. But the absolute lack of AEDs in hotels, shopping centers etc cannot be purely down to lack of funds or knowledge about the possible benefit of AEDs

Edited August 15, 2009 by simon43

[Sheryl]

In my experience Thai physicians are not necessarily clear on legislative matters and I would not take the anecdotal statements of random Thai doctors as authoritative on this subject. One wonders too if they persons questioned were clear on what an AED is and how it differs from a regualr defibrillator.

I am 99% sure there is no legislation on this matter. If there is anything, it would be a policy issued by the Medical Council of Thailand or the Thai FDA, although online searches of both fail to turn up a thing. This leads me to suspect it is a more an absence of specific policy that creates uneasiness.

For sure, Thai nurses in hospital ICUs/CCUs can and do routinely defibrillate in the absence of a doctor (and not with AEDs either; they interpret EKGS and make the necessary judgement as to whether and when to use a normal defibrillator). This is standard paractice the world over. Of course, they do this within the framework of standing orders/guidelines which have been signed off on by a physician. And purchase of an AED might require a doctor's prescription; it does in the US, not because use of the device is limited to physicians (as noted, that makes no sense) but in order to ensure that a physician oversees the establishment of guidelines etc on how these devices will be used.

The idea that giving oxygen by a person other than a doctor is illegal (as per referenced thread) is absurd; all Thai airway flights, like planes everywhere, are outfitted with oxygen and Thai flight crew can and do administer it.

I would suggest the Thai Red Cross or the company selling the devices as the best sources fior information on relevant policies on obtaining AEDs and guidelines for their use. Would also recommend that the company arrange to have a Thai physician oversee its occupational health policies and guidelines etc if not already done; this does nto need to be a fulltime dcotor on staff but rather an arrangement with a physician, preferrably one with a background in occupational health, to serve as consultant to the company in that regard.

Occupational safety is a neglected area in Thai public health but there has recently been a push to better address it and there is talk of erstablishing an occupational safety institute. In the meantime there are official guidelines on occupational health and safety for small/medium sized businesses but in Thai only, so I so not know what it says or how detailed it is. http://www.sciencepark.or.th/index.php?opt...&Itemid=341

[FBN]

There are similar restrictions to the use of AEDs in some countries; the definition of the user usually says a "Medically Qualified" person which may include trained paramedics etc.

This may have recently changed in Thailand as well. Best to check with the providers.

It is important, though, to have people adequately trained in the use of this equipment.

[Nordlys]

And purchase of an AED might require a doctor's prescription; it does in the US, not because use of the device is limited to physicians (as noted, that makes no sense) but in order to ensure that a physician oversees the establishment of guidelines etc on how these devices will be used.

It seems it's readily available in the U.S., you can even buy one from amazon.

Here's what it says on amazon page (Philips AED).

"This Defibrillator does not need a prescription and is approved by the FDA for anyone to use"

[simon43]

I got my AED off Ebay

Simon

[Nordlys]

and brought it to Thailand?

any problem with customs clearance?

[Declan]

One of my company employees collapsed in the factory during work and died later just two days ago of cardiac arrest (or heart attack) and I'm considering buying/leasing AED to be installed in my company as we are located out of town and not anywhere near a decent hospital. Anyone knows where I can buy/lease such an equipment in Bangkok?

Also is there a hospital that can dispatch a specialist to demonstrate and train our employees in performing CPR?

Contact DMI X-Ray Thailand, they are the distributor for Defibtech AED's www.defibtech.com. Each unit comes with 5 hours full training and also training VDO's.

Khun Nuttagarn on 087-0759992