The River Condo

[Nepal4me]

I just called The River and asked about prices for the condo's there. They are asking 140.000 bt/sq meter. The 2 bedrooms are from 120 Sq Met to 140 Sq met.

That's 16.8M bt to 19.6M baht for a 2 bedroom condo.

I can remember about 4 to 5 years ago just before all the crap with the gov't hit, the prices in BKK were in the 90 to 100K ba/sq meter tops. Now you have all these new condo's at 140M/sq met. The address Chitlom is the same, not sure of the prices for the Met but I thought it was the highest in BKK.

It has been well documented over the past few years that condo sales are way way down. How can they justify selling at this price level and who in the heII are buying these things (or are they???)???

[Livinginexile]

I just called The River and asked about prices for the condo's there. They are asking 140.000 bt/sq meter. The 2 bedrooms are from 120 Sq Met to 140 Sq met.

That's 16.8M bt to 19.6M baht for a 2 bedroom condo.

I can remember about 4 to 5 years ago just before all the crap with the gov't hit, the prices in BKK were in the 90 to 100K ba/sq meter tops. Now you have all these new condo's at 140M/sq met. The address Chitlom is the same, not sure of the prices for the Met but I thought it was the highest in BKK.

It has been well documented over the past few years that condo sales are way way down. How can they justify selling at this price level and who in the heII are buying these things (or are they???)???

This project is allready nearly 50% sold and it’s not due for completion until early 2013.

The River is the biggest and most prestigious high-rise property development ever undertaken in Thailand.

Have you seen the showrooms on the river’s edge? Very impressive.

[Mick303]

More money than brains me thinks

[kplesq]

No question sales are down, but The River is a quality project with a very reputable developer. They had heavy sales last year, too, before things got bad. I'm surprised, though, that they aren't being a little more aggressive. Perhaps they don't need the revenue at the moment or are anticipating a bounce back relatively soon.

[trogers]

This project is allready nearly 50% sold and it's not due for completion until early 2013.

The River is the biggest and most prestigious high-rise property development ever undertaken in Thailand.

Have you seen the showrooms on the river's edge? Very impressive.

Please use the correct terms in this section of the forum. Do you mean the project is 50% booked?

Condo units are only deemed sold when title is transferred upon full payment!

[jrbkk64]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

Edited August 14, 2009 by jrbkk64

[trogers]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

And they were the darling developer not too long ago.

Happened to Lehman Bros, so why not some smaller companies?

[mark5335]

According to one of Raimon Land's bankers the company's major shareholders (from Kuwait & Dubai), who instigated the replacement of Nigel C as CEO earlier this year, would be unlikely to allow the company to fail. They were unhappy about Nigel's strategy of focusing very much on foreign buyers, and but had to pump in $10m in loans to provide further liquidity when foreign sales dried up earlier this year. Yet to see any major change in company strategy though, but when/if they ever launch the 100 Rajdamari project, I would expect to see much interest from wealthy locals (as well as foreigners).

[sorensen]

The project is already delayed with 3 years from the original schedule:

Name : The River

Location : Riverside, next to The Peninsular, opporside the Shangri-La and The Oriental

Developer : Takson Hotel Holdings,Raimonland Development Limited+JP Morgan (Singapore) Limited

Project Description : 73 Storey Tower comprising 838 units of Condominium and Serviced Apartment+a 43 Storey Hotel Tower with a retail+parking podium.

Heights : Tower A : 265.59 Meters, Tower B : 151.75 Meters

Architect : HB DESIGN LIMITED

Project Approved : May 15, 2006

Expected Launch : December 2006

Construction Starts : Jaunary 2007

Construction Finishes : The end of 2010

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=350997

[cinbkk]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

Whereas Preuksa's Ivy River Condo is almost complete, may be 1 month late, is almost 100% reserved and prices are half of what you say they are charging at The River. My 1 bed is 65k /sqm. Choose your developer and project carefully.

Oh, and it's also on the 'wrong' side of the river, though i like the quieter roads and more laid back feel over there!

[trogers]

Whereas Preuksa's Ivy River Condo is almost complete, may be 1 month late, is almost 100% reserved and prices are half of what you say they are charging at The River. My 1 bed is 65k /sqm. Choose your developer and project carefully.

Oh, and it's also on the 'wrong' side of the river, though i like the quieter roads and more laid back feel over there!

Good price. Select some lightweight furniture (not those thick padded ones), and you can get net rental yield of at least 8%.

[Nepal4me]

Ok, sounds like Raimon Land is in some trouble. How about The Address Chitlom? They are asking the same lofty price per square meter, i.e. 140,000 per sq met.

What about The Met? Is it even higher?

The Address Chitlom will tell you they have only 5 x 2 bedroom condos left available. I wonder if that is sold and paid for or just a down payment put on them???

Anybody have any insight on The Met?

[Livinginexile]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

[trogers]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

The correct strategy is to cash up and finish the pending condos, rather than to start new ones. Unless these new projects will be registered under a new 'associated' company?

[humbug]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

to livinginexile

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...s-b225m-q2-loss

this is the link to the article that jrbkk64 was eluding to,i am not a big fan of these papers but there are some facts and figures which if you wanted to follow more closey then also try www.set.or.th and look under raimon and then news items

this is a quote:

Siam City Research Institute said Raimon's gross profit margin was highly volatile and had tumbled to a five-year low of 20.8% in the second quarter, down from 37.2% in the first quarter of this year.

The narrow gross margin was caused by the fluctuating cost of condominium projects and its inefficient management of sales expenses, said SCRI.

The research house also forecast increased risk due to the developer's weakened financial status, which has seen a debt-to-equity ratio of as high as 2.7 times.

Edited August 15, 2009 by astral

[Livinginexile]

Raimon Land is in deep trouble. Read the newspapers. They were riding the wave and are now coming close to crashing on the beach. They have by far the highest debt to equity ratio of all major developers and lost an awful lot of money in Q1 and 2 of 2009. Read the comments from people in the know about how badly managed Raimon Land is. You can find them everywhere. On top of that The River is on the wrong side of the river. If it ever gets completed I doubt it will be by Raimon Land in its current shape and form!! Be warned!!

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

to livinginexile

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...s-b225m-q2-loss

this is the link to the article that jrbkk64 was eluding to,i am not a big fan of these papers but there are some facts and figures which if you wanted to follow more closey then also try www.set.or.th and look under raimon and then news items

this is a quote:

Siam City Research Institute said Raimon's gross profit margin was highly volatile and had tumbled to a five-year low of 20.8% in the second quarter, down from 37.2% in the first quarter of this year.

The narrow gross margin was caused by the fluctuating cost of condominium projects and its inefficient management of sales expenses, said SCRI.

The research house also forecast increased risk due to the developer's weakened financial status, which has seen a debt-to-equity ratio of as high as 2.7 times.

Nigel C the old CEO of Raimon Land was replaced earlier this year. There has and will be massive cash injections from the Dubai majority share holder in the future.

Yes their last Q balance sheets looks poor but believe me, Raimon Land now have a mountain of cash to draw on from the Middle East.

[FD333]

No doubt The River will be finished and Raimon Land will ultimately emerge as new entity. But I am not sure that even Middle East money equates to a bottomless pit anymore...they have enough problems themselves in their own back yard with overly ambitious development. So far they have Rajdamri, Pattaya and Phuket developemnts on hold...

The bulk of sales at the River were made in a more buoyant market, so Raimon can still ask for high figures per square meter as they have limited inventory. I have friends considering trying to get out of the project and expecting a resale at anything close to baht 140,000 is a joke according to them.

Likewise with The Met. There were a number of discreet sales just before the recent tranfer period where people wanted out/dumped before the 70% installment was due. A list of shrewd prospective buyers were nabbing units some for around 110,000 or even less ( I am just going on what I have been told, but these are solid sources) but, that said, if an early buyer, they still managed to get their funds back out without loss...as for those buying in at the higher levels....Yet, the developer with limited inventory is still asking for relatively high prices ( about a month agoduring a promo around 135,000 PSM I believe for a small unit).

The Bangkok market is artificial to some degree and does not play by normal business rules as witnessed in other cities...there has been no market correction for example comparable to the one which Singapore has just undergone .You can debate forever reasons as to why this appears either logical or illogical but really, its a huge waste of time.

cinbkk is right when he says choose your developer and project carefully.

Everyone claims they do this but very few really do extend themselves.

I think personally that the best values are to be had are in the resale markets rather than off plan. That said, any old condo won't do (if you are looking longer term for the building to hold its own and appreciate) and you still need to look for good locations, facilities, management etc This actually takes more time and patience but the rewards can be considerable.

[bkkjames]

hmm just my thoughts...

wrong side of the River? Have you seen the views from the Peninsula? bts crosses the river now btw

projects on hold - makes sense not to launch them in a dead market at the moment.

profitability - will this not change when northpoint starts tranferring?

[Heng]

More money than brains me thinks

Yeah, everyone wants to be a genius with no money.

[dondraper]

I like the style of build you get in Hong Kong or Macau where the lobby of the building is extravagant like a hotel, but you don't see much (any) of that here.

Edited August 18, 2009 by dondraper

[wordchild]

the share price of Raimon does not seem to agree that all is well. at the current price of 32 satangs the company is valued at around 1bn bt or just under £20mil which is a fraction of current liabilities the thai stock market seems to believe there is a fair chance they are bust . their "rich" Dubai backers are in upto their necks and also have major problems elsewhere not least in their home market

[trogers]

I like the style of build you get in Hong Kong or Macau where the lobby of the building is extravagant like a hotel, but you don't see much (any) of that here.

Unfortunately, the lobby is the only big space in residential buildings of Hong Kong and Macau. The units themselves are like 2-bed 1 bath under 400 sq feet. Standing in the middle of the unit, all you need is 3 steps to reach the kitchen sink or WC or front door or stand by a bed.

[Abrak]

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

to livinginexile

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...s-b225m-q2-loss

this is the link to the article that jrbkk64 was eluding to,i am not a big fan of these papers but there are some facts and figures which if you wanted to follow more closey then also try www.set.or.th and look under raimon and then news items

this is a quote:

Siam City Research Institute said Raimon's gross profit margin was highly volatile and had tumbled to a five-year low of 20.8% in the second quarter, down from 37.2% in the first quarter of this year.

The narrow gross margin was caused by the fluctuating cost of condominium projects and its inefficient management of sales expenses, said SCRI.

The research house also forecast increased risk due to the developer's weakened financial status, which has seen a debt-to-equity ratio of as high as 2.7 times.

Nigel C the old CEO of Raimon Land was replaced earlier this year. There has and will be massive cash injections from the Dubai majority share holder in the future.

Yes their last Q balance sheets looks poor but believe me, Raimon Land now have a mountain of cash to draw on from the Middle East.

Obviously anyone examining their financial statements can see that they are in danger of going bankrupt. This is also reflected in their share price which is about 20% of the price that their current major shareholders bought into 18 months ago. The company had little reputation amongst Thais before its failure with the old owners Jum and Simon Bonyatum.

So simply put its survival depends on the financial status and credibility of its new shareholders. They obviously (and have admitted) to making a major mistake in their choice of CEO of the company but it did seem their decision to invest was partly based in the credibility that they unfortunately placed in him.

They are selling off assets and cutting costs in many areas which implies they are retrenching. Obviously you guys know the intentions of the major shareholders but why 1) do you believe they will recapitalize the company and 2) why do you think this will not involve major value dilution for existing shareholders.

I have to say that by a simple analysis of their balance sheet (I have no other knowledge) their actions seem to be more focussed on minimizing contingent liabililities that they have made rather than boosting shareholder value.

[Livinginexile]

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

to livinginexile

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...s-b225m-q2-loss

this is the link to the article that jrbkk64 was eluding to,i am not a big fan of these papers but there are some facts and figures which if you wanted to follow more closey then also try www.set.or.th and look under raimon and then news items

this is a quote:

Siam City Research Institute said Raimon's gross profit margin was highly volatile and had tumbled to a five-year low of 20.8% in the second quarter, down from 37.2% in the first quarter of this year.

The narrow gross margin was caused by the fluctuating cost of condominium projects and its inefficient management of sales expenses, said SCRI.

The research house also forecast increased risk due to the developer's weakened financial status, which has seen a debt-to-equity ratio of as high as 2.7 times.

Nigel C the old CEO of Raimon Land was replaced earlier this year. There has and will be massive cash injections from the Dubai majority share holder in the future.

Yes their last Q balance sheets looks poor but believe me, Raimon Land now have a mountain of cash to draw on from the Middle East.

Obviously anyone examining their financial statements can see that they are in danger of going bankrupt. This is also reflected in their share price which is about 20% of the price that their current major shareholders bought into 18 months ago. The company had little reputation amongst Thais before its failure with the old owners Jum and Simon Bonyatum.

So simply put its survival depends on the financial status and credibility of its new shareholders. They obviously (and have admitted) to making a major mistake in their choice of CEO of the company but it did seem their decision to invest was partly based in the credibility that they unfortunately placed in him.

They are selling off assets and cutting costs in many areas which implies they are retrenching. Obviously you guys know the intentions of the major shareholders but why 1) do you believe they will recapitalize the company and 2) why do you think this will not involve major value dilution for existing shareholders.

I have to say that by a simple analysis of their balance sheet (I have no other knowledge) their actions seem to be more focussed on minimizing contingent liabililities that they have made rather than boosting shareholder value.

The River project is being developed by TAKSIN PROPERTIES...not Raimonland.

All funding comes from Taksin.

[wordchild]

Thats strange because in their latest fileing (made last week) Raimon Land say they have an 84% equity interest in the project .I wonder if there is some confusion here, one of their partners in the project is something called Taksin Hotel Group, which was the original owner of the site: but ,the major shareholder in Taksin Hotel is in fact Raimon themselves .They bought out Lehman (or their liquidators) who were the majority owners of Taksin Hotel Group earlier this year for a nominal sum. I dont know if this is what you were refering to, but there is no connection between Taksin Hotel and former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Edited August 19, 2009 by wordchild

[donx]

What rubbish!

Raimon Land is now 40% owned by a very rich Middle Eastern developer. They are cashed up and have secured another 4 more sites in Bangkok for future development. The next one starting before the end of this year.

to livinginexile

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/econom...s-b225m-q2-loss

this is the link to the article that jrbkk64 was eluding to,i am not a big fan of these papers but there are some facts and figures which if you wanted to follow more closey then also try www.set.or.th and look under raimon and then news items

this is a quote:

Siam City Research Institute said Raimon's gross profit margin was highly volatile and had tumbled to a five-year low of 20.8% in the second quarter, down from 37.2% in the first quarter of this year.

The narrow gross margin was caused by the fluctuating cost of condominium projects and its inefficient management of sales expenses, said SCRI.

The research house also forecast increased risk due to the developer's weakened financial status, which has seen a debt-to-equity ratio of as high as 2.7 times.

Nigel C the old CEO of Raimon Land was replaced earlier this year. There has and will be massive cash injections from the Dubai majority share holder in the future.

Yes their last Q balance sheets looks poor but believe me, Raimon Land now have a mountain of cash to draw on from the Middle East.

Obviously anyone examining their financial statements can see that they are in danger of going bankrupt. This is also reflected in their share price which is about 20% of the price that their current major shareholders bought into 18 months ago. The company had little reputation amongst Thais before its failure with the old owners Jum and Simon Bonyatum.

So simply put its survival depends on the financial status and credibility of its new shareholders. They obviously (and have admitted) to making a major mistake in their choice of CEO of the company but it did seem their decision to invest was partly based in the credibility that they unfortunately placed in him.

They are selling off assets and cutting costs in many areas which implies they are retrenching. Obviously you guys know the intentions of the major shareholders but why 1) do you believe they will recapitalize the company and 2) why do you think this will not involve major value dilution for existing shareholders.

I have to say that by a simple analysis of their balance sheet (I have no other knowledge) their actions seem to be more focussed on minimizing contingent liabililities that they have made rather than boosting shareholder value.

The River project is being developed by TAKSIN PROPERTIES...not Raimonland.

All funding comes from Taksin.

Go to The River Website and you will see Raimon Land prominently advertized as the developer.

[Livinginexile]

Donx,

You are correct, Raimonland is the developer.

What I meant to say was Taksin Properties was established to fund the River project.

If Raimonland do get into financial trouble in the future it will not affect project funding.

Thts the word on the street anyway

Sorry for the confusion.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Livinginexile

[Abrak]

Donx,

You are correct, Raimonland is the developer.

What I meant to say was Taksin Properties was established to fund the River project.

If Raimonland do get into financial trouble in the future it will not affect project funding.

Thts the word on the street anyway

Sorry for the confusion.

Come on you are accusing other people of talking 'rubbish' claim you know of their major shareholders intentions.

Then you resort to 'word on the street'.

And then spouting rubbish about Taksin properties.

As is readily published information Raimon is the majority owner of Taksin properties. It has arranged its ownership in such a way so that it doesnt have to consolidate it on its balance sheet. (As it has done with many of its projects.)

There are other shareholders such as Norrison Developments with 35% but I suspect they are a shell (I have never heard of them.) They are unlikely to refinance the project if Raimon gets into trouble.

I dont know anything (apart from they are trying to liquidate assets) but like most people here I can read a balance sheet, P&L, etc. They do not look good. People are not talking rubbish per se, just extrapolating publicly available information.

[Livinginexile]

Donx,

You are correct, Raimonland is the developer.

What I meant to say was Taksin Properties was established to fund the River project.

If Raimonland do get into financial trouble in the future it will not affect project funding.

Thts the word on the street anyway

Sorry for the confusion.

Come on you are accusing other people of talking 'rubbish' claim you know of their major shareholders intentions.

Then you resort to 'word on the street'.

And then spouting rubbish about Taksin properties.

As is readily published information Raimon is the majority owner of Taksin properties. It has arranged its ownership in such a way so that it doesnt have to consolidate it on its balance sheet. (As it has done with many of its projects.)

There are other shareholders such as Norrison Developments with 35% but I suspect they are a shell (I have never heard of them.) They are unlikely to refinance the project if Raimon gets into trouble.

I dont know anything (apart from they are trying to liquidate assets) but like most people here I can read a balance sheet, P&L, etc. They do not look good. People are not talking rubbish per se, just extrapolating publicly available information.

Abrak, all I know is the funding for this project is not coming directly from or through Raimonland.

My understanding is the money is being chanelled through Taksin Properties or like you said, Norrison Developments.

The funding earmarked for this project is for The River development only.

I am not a money man and I don't know how the owners have set up their business but one thing is certain. Funding for this project is in place and is safwe from any Raimonland financial problems in the future.

[wordchild]

i dont see the evidence for that,unless they are not telling the truth to the thai stock market or to their auditors,which i doubt. This TAKSIN thing is a bit of a red herring it is now nothing more than a shell company owned by Raimon itself, and as i said above, for the avoidance of doubt ,nothing whatsoever to do with former prime minister THAKSIN though the spelling is similar. Having said that i believe in one way you are sort of right. As i understand it and others have already said on this thread,Raimon is under instruction from its major shareholder to cease all other developement other than north point (which is probably 9 months away from completion) and the River, get North Point completed and sold as quickly as possible try to generate a significantly higher level of pre-sales on the River and get out of all other projects. so in a way the River is different from their other stuff but not quite in the way you suggest. However the project is still vulnerable,if the market remains difficult and the latest bout of "special offers" does not work i believe they may just mothball the project and put the company into run-off/liquidation. The structure and the way in which they put the latest bit of (small) funding in, a high yield debt instrument, not equity, makes me think they maybe getting ready for this.

Edited August 19, 2009 by wordchild