A Question Of Etiquette

[RealityCheck]

Earlier this week my Thai partner and I hosted a BBQ party at our home in Isaan.

Around 30 of my partners immediate and extended family attended (including Aunts, Uncles, their partners, cousins, grandmother, sister & boyfriend, etc) and I was surprised to note that not one of them contributed any food or drink. This wasn't actually a problem as we'd bought half of Tescos in preparation for the event.

At the end of the evening they all departed without a single offering of thanks to the hosts and, with the exception of my partner's younger sister, no one even said good night. My partner's mother took it upon herself to gather all remnants of the buffet and took them home with her.

Coming from a society where it's the norm to turn up to a party with a bottle or two of wine (or beer) and to make a point of thanking your hosts at the end of the evening, my only thought as I sat there at the end of the evening - looking at the debris, including all the dishes, etc., was: "How Rude! Never Again!".

When I broached the subject with my partner, I was told that this is definitely part of Thai culture and, not as I suspect, this particular families culture. I later regretted asking about it as it's created a lot of tension and some considerable aggravation - the "Thai Family" being, of course, sacrosanct.

Can anyone shed any light as to whether this is a Thai trait or is it more likely specific to this one family?

Thanx.

[sanook2me]

Don't worry the resident PHD psychologists and sociologists on TV will be along shortly...just take a seat and wait...

I have never hosted a party here so i have no experience to tell but i've been to a few weddings and different bashes and to be honest each one has always been out of sync with my English etiquette book......

Thai parties i've been too like engagements, monkhood or similar affairs normally a bottle of booze is laid on the table no need to bring your own...maybe your party falls into this bracket...

Thats my experience so i'm guessing it was normal behaviour just not for you....

[Soutpeel]

Earlier this week my Thai partner and I hosted a BBQ party at our home in Isaan.

Around 30 of my partners immediate and extended family attended (including Aunts, Uncles, their partners, cousins, grandmother, sister & boyfriend, etc) and I was surprised to note that not one of them contributed any food or drink. This wasn't actually a problem as we'd bought half of Tescos in preparation for the event.

At the end of the evening they all departed without a single offering of thanks to the hosts and, with the exception of my partner's younger sister, no one even said good night. My partner's mother took it upon herself to gather all remnants of the buffet and took them home with her.

Coming from a society where it's the norm to turn up to a party with a bottle or two of wine (or beer) and to make a point of thanking your hosts at the end of the evening, my only thought as I sat there at the end of the evening - looking at the debris, including all the dishes, etc., was: "How Rude! Never Again!".

When I broached the subject with my partner, I was told that this is definitely part of Thai culture and, not as I suspect, this particular families culture. I later regretted asking about it as it's created a lot of tension and some considerable aggravation - the "Thai Family" being, of course, sacrosanct.

Can anyone shed any light as to whether this is a Thai trait or is it more likely specific to this one family?

Thanx.

I my experience this is definitely not a a Thai trait..Have had BBQ's at my place with up to 40-50 people and on the whole most people turn up with some beer/wine/food etc....as with other countries you do get free loaders turning up, so thats not uniquely Thai...

Have had guests mucking in with the cooking and at the end of the night, the the people remaining helped clean up, wash dishes etc..any left overs are offered to anyone who wants them, and the vast majority of people have made the point of saying thanks...

This sounds like its specific to this one family...sound like a gang of free loaders and very rude...

[Maizefarmer]

Bastards - what complete bastards: not one contributed anything and then they all left without offering a word of appreciation or thank's!

Damnd right - I'd also be p'd off.

Only thing I can think of is that because they are all family members they tend to take each other for granted more so than one would if dealing with a non-family member.

By the way - was there any particular reason why this dinner party was held?

[GungaDin]

You are correct.

You've married(?) into a extremely rude family.

edit: (sorry, I missed the "partner" word)

Good luck, matey.

Edited August 15, 2009 by GungaDin

[bina]

most thai i know show up with alcohol or veggies or meat with them. no one says thank you, mst dont say bye also, they just go... but thats within 'friends'/pi/nong.

and usually send people off with leftovers too... but the parties weve done are with several friends so they do the cleaning up also... guests dont stay to help.

its not rude. just different. and our parties are bbq issaan style tpe things. not 'dinner parties'. but we dont know city or hi so types so havent a clue really.

israelis also bring food or cake if they are in the family/good friend classification; also get left overs but also help to clean up. but we distinguish between 'having a party' and being 'hosted' at a party (usually people that arent in the 'family'/tribe category.....

i think maybe hosted and 'having' a party are two different things. wehn we have a party, its sort of like a group effort. i dont 'host' parties i.e. i dont just invite people to come to eat, as that is seen as something different than lets get together and have a bbq type affair.

bina

israel

[Travel2003]

When a friend of mine got married here in Bangkok, about 30 % of the invited guests never showed up.

Out of them hardly any even bothered to call to say they would not come.

Most of the ones that came to the wedding came in jeans, shorts, slippers, etc.

Needless to say, but I was very surprised, standing there sweating in my suit, looking at the casual dressed guests.

I was told later that it is not a big deal.

Just how it is, so no need to think too much over it.

Of course, they had a huge amount of food and beverages left over, which they gave away to the nearest family members that did attent the wedding.

The only person that said thank you, was the groom.

Very educational.

[TheWalkingMan]

I was thinking about this topic a few days ago. I visited one of my friends in her village and she gave a drink to a neighbor who was passing by. He took the drink, no acknowledgement or thank-you or anything. I watched him carefully as I was curious as to what his response would be to her. I really think that the things many non-Thais think of as common courtesy are just not thought about here in Thailand.

The basics of saying please/thank-you seem to be not in the vocabulary for many Thai people. Try explaining as to why these things should be said and I would bet that lots of blank, deer in the headlights stares would be garnered.

As far as cleaning up after a party... I have never had a party in Thailand so I cannot comment. But for every BBQ I have attended in the USA or Japan, the guests always bring something... Be it some beverages, food, flowers etc. It is always considered bad form to show up with just a smile and an empty hand/stomach.

TheWalkingMan

[PattayaParent]

I've never understood why people invite others round for a meal or a drink and expect them to bring their own food or booze?

May as well stay at home.

[GrahamF]

I've never understood why people invite others round for a meal or a drink and expect them to bring their own food or booze?

May as well stay at home.

Ummm, I don't think anyone expects people to bring a bunch of stuff, but at least in the USA it is just common courtesy to bring something with you, not expected but appreciated.

I guess you don't get out too much.

[chiangmaibruce]

I've never understood why people invite others round for a meal or a drink and expect them to bring their own food or booze?

May as well stay at home.

Ummm, I don't think anyone expects people to bring a bunch of stuff, but at least in the USA it is just common courtesy to bring something with you, not expected but appreciated.

I guess you don't get out too much.

... or at least to OFFER to bring something

[Jingthing]

Well, about the sparse thank yous I will compare to the US.

Thank you-ing is culturally not as pervasive in a hierarchical society that Thailand is. It is not really proper to thank your waiter every time they bring you something during a meal as you find many Americans doing.

Sometimes the western custom of it being polite to bring something to a party gets to be really silly. I remember when I was a young pauper in my early 20's being invited to a dinner party at my filthy rich relatives house. I felt obligated to bring a bottle of wine (something for 10 bucks) and the host asked me if it was a special wine I wanted to share. Yeah right, as if I knew anything about wine at the time ...

Edited August 15, 2009 by Jingthing

[mahtin]

I would confirm this from experience as an Isaan trait, as is zero tolerance of criticism.

They do say chok dee a lot though, so perhaps it's all-inclusive.

[way2muchcoffee]

I think there are two aspects here: culture and social class. In my experience middle to upper class people tend to bring things to parties, particularly if they are from the city. In the country it's a different story. In the village there may be a party this week at some house. People are invited. People come. More come than are invited. People drink and eat. Nothing is reciprocated at the time, and very little thanks is given. The thanks comes the next day as people talk about the great party so and so had. Good feelings abound. People gain face. People remember. Later the party will be at another house. They may even try to outdo the last party in whatever way they can. In this way the food and drinks are reciprocated. And so it goes.

Edited August 15, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[GungaDin]

I was invited to a BBQ in Dec and told not to bring any booze as the host was a bar owner.

I still felt uneasy turning up empty handed but that was the instruction. (Great BBQ, btw)

In Aus, it's drummed into us at a very early age to always BYOG.

New British immigrants are soon made aware of the rules and are a bit taken aback.

If someone turns up at my place with a 6 pack and drinks 12, I'm happy for him, it usually means that he enjoyed himself.

Good manners cost nothing and a simple 'thank you' goes a long way in any society / country.

[dondraper]

Sounds like you married into a terrible family, no offense.

[GungaDin]

I've never understood why people invite others round for a meal or a drink and expect them to bring their own food or booze?

May as well stay at home.

Ummm, I don't think anyone expects people to bring a bunch of stuff, but at least in the USA it is just common courtesy to bring something with you, not expected but appreciated.

I guess you don't get out too much.

... or at least to OFFER to bring something

I'll bet The Ranch, PP is a Pommie.

[garyh]

Welcome to Thailand

[barrybankruad]

I think there are two aspects here: culture and social class. In my experience middle to upper class people tend to bring things to parties, particularly if they are from the city. In the country it's a different story. In the village there may be a party this week at some house. People are invited. People come. More come than are invited. People drink and eat. Nothing is reciprocated at the time, and very little thanks is given. The thanks comes the next day as people talk about the great party so and so had. Good feelings abound. People gain face. People remember. Later the party will be at another house. They may even try to outdo the last party in whatever way they can. In this way the food and drinks are reciprocated. And so it goes.

Best response so far. I personally think that it part of the 'tham boun' (give merit) etiquette, whereas if you have some thing to offer it is expected, just because no offer of thanks is given doesn't mean that it is not appreciated.

[Tod Daniels]

I definitely see this as a class/educational/earning parity thing and NOT part of the "alleged, mythical, and totally imaginary" idea pawned off on foreigners as “thai culture”.

I have attended several parties in Bangkok. To a person the thais showed up with food, drink, etc, and more than a few stayed to help afterwards. Then again they were all from the same class of society. There was no one in attendance which was from either a much higher or much lower class, so in essence all were equals.

I have also attended parties in the North and South of the glorious “Land ‘O Thais”, (but thankfully I've never had the occasion to go to Issan for more than an hour or two at most).

North of Chiang Rai the party was attended by what appeared to be about several hundred people, and MANY brought food, drinks, etc, as well as stayed after the party was over, and helped tidy up.

The party in the south (which was a rural village WAY outside Trang ตรัง), had a much different ‘tone’ or ‘mood’ to it. It was much more of a "goose that laid the golden egg" foreigner, footing the entire bill for a party for his new thai wife’s family, (although they had been married several years). In reality it was nothing more than a “face gaining gambit” by the wife and family. There was a much more mercenary tone to the overall event. People were very wasteful of the food, drank themselves into a stupor, and the ones that could actually stagger away, left without a word. In the morning the ones which were still scattered around, having slept on the ground asked for more food and drink. Now I believe that rural village is probably not even on a map of this frickin' country except as a small no-named dot, if that. The thing I mentioned earlier comes into play 100%; education, earning parity, and level of society the people who attend come from.

With you being the "foreign partner" there is ample reason to believe in your neck of Issan people could fall back on the mindset of; why bring anything, "he is more rich than me" <-(sorry thai-engrish)..

I wouldn't EVER host another party like that, and if I had a partner (which thankfully, I don't), I would have no reticence in stating my feelings about the 'guests' in attendance.

It is all too true, in alleged thai 'culture', family can be sacrosanct; at least to foreign comments and observation. I have no problem mentioning if I think someone is as worthless as tits on a bull, but that is my style. Usually the thais while pointing out it is not polite to say those things, will concur with my ever astute observations.

My grandfather (a farmer with next to NO formal education in the rural US Midwest) used to say, "Courtesy doesn't take a college degree". The other phrase that comes to mind is, "You can pick your friends, but not your family". In your case you can't pick your extended family.

Sorry to hear this happened to you. I am also sorry to hear your partner immediately fell back on the old "you don't understand thai culture" adage which is used more times than not when foreigners cast a light on something which may definitely not be the norm, but is pawned off as such here. I would go out of my way to explain to my partner that this type of behavior, especially by the immediate family is aberrant, and completely unacceptable.

While the "we-b-thai foreign sock-puppet" contingent might gnash their teeth, beat their chest and wail you are in thailand, you must accept without question "all thingz thai". I say that argument is at best a pathetic attempt to cover mindless brainwashing, and at worst a feeble attempt by them to embrace their proverbial "thai-ness".

Live and learn; or as I like to say: "Changing thai "culture" one person at a time".

Thank frickin' God there's only 63 million more to go until my job's finished here...

[mahtin]

I've never had the occasion to go to Issan for more than an hour or two at most

The issue is specific to that region.

[abdulrahman]

Can anyone shed any light as to whether this is a Thai trait or is it more likely specific to this one family?

Thanx.

In my,admitted limited,experience,it is a Thai trait,or,at least,an Isaan one.

When I,or the wife,give a party,have to pay for everything,food,drink,music,the guests can enjoy.

Nobody bring anything,and they disappear when they like.

Learn to do the same when you are invited!

[NUMBNUTTS]

Its a class thing - one never arrives empty handed - ever.

Leaving with more than one brought is classless.

[dondraper]

yeah its funny how some guys try to rationalize their partners/Thais short comings as cultural issues.

Edited August 15, 2009 by dondraper

[G54]

I have attended a few 'events', no BBQ's though, around and about and I have always seen the majority pay some verbal respect to the hosts as they were leaving. And never yet seen 1 person grab the 'leftovers' so to speak. In fact, whatever has been left id usually held over for some who come back the next day or for those who stay late helping with the clearing up and washing of the pots n pans.

[Macx]

Bothered me a bit at first too.

But later on, I figured if you can't beat them, you might as well join them. Besides, it's great to slip away from someone else's party right when people begin to get rowdy and really drunk--when they'd never let you leave without finishing up another 2 or 3 bottles of Mekong.

Issan Thais, in my experience, tend to show their thanks another way.

I could list several examples, but I'm too lazy to type so I'll just mention a recent one:

One poor distance uncle often came by to drink and eat. Great guy. Soft spoken. Piss poor cash-wise, but owned lots of forest land. He never said "Thank you", "Goodbye" or even "Hello" for that matter. Once I gave him a pair of 60 baht flip flop simply because his were so worn.

Anyhow, one day out of the blue, he came on a truck with half a dozen men to unload eight huge logs of prime hardwood, teak and some other extremely rare wood, fell that day on his land. It was a present for our bungalow build. He wouldn't take even a token amount of money. I knew for a fact that there were several people who wanted to buy that wood from him.

[Nilrem]

I think there are two aspects here: culture and social class. In my experience middle to upper class people tend to bring things to parties, particularly if they are from the city. In the country it's a different story. In the village there may be a party this week at some house. People are invited. People come. More come than are invited. People drink and eat. Nothing is reciprocated at the time, and very little thanks is given. The thanks comes the next day as people talk about the great party so and so had. Good feelings abound. People gain face. People remember. Later the party will be at another house. They may even try to outdo the last party in whatever way they can. In this way the food and drinks are reciprocated. And so it goes.

Best response so far. I personally think that it part of the 'tham boun' (give merit) etiquette, whereas if you have some thing to offer it is expected, just because no offer of thanks is given doesn't mean that it is not appreciated.

I'll second that: relative to its response as well as pointing out two aspects: culture and class.

When a family or friend returns to the village where i live a party is immediately organized. The women of the clan jump into action. Everyone helps out: contributing food and drink, preparing the meal, serving, and cleaning up after. I've been particularly impressed by how much the youthful girls help. They can be as young as five years or so.

While i have married into the pre-eminent clan in the village, poorer people from other clans will attend. They are not directly invited, still they are accepted and it is not odd to see them take leftovers home with them. However, members of my wife's clan would rarely if ever attend a party those people.

Even members of a local clan, renowned for their thievery, have attended our parties. This was particularly strange one time since they had been selling poached fish in the village, which my wife believes probably came from our pond, since we are the only one's around with that size of fish. On seeing them at the party, I felt offended and said so; my wife laughed, shrugged it off and carried on.

[MiG16]

hmmmm

before I visited Aus, the idea of inviting people around for dinner but asking them to bring their own food is something I couldnt even imagine.

if we invite people to dinner, we provide the food and drinks. the nature of food and drinks available will depend on the occasion (as in, not always alcohol).

however, the not saying thanks part is something I cant understand and would not put down as culture. It is very odd. And yes, usually one would offer to help with the clean up (unless in the rare occasion where they know the party has been 'catered' with helpers who will come clean). Regardless, you WOULD say thanks though. if not proper thanks, then some form of acknowledgement - even a gesture to let the wife know they were leaving before they take off.

(however, take note that say at a wedding, guests simply leave without saying goodbye to the host/bride and groom. strange by western standard, but thats how it seems to be done here).

[canopy]

In my observation it is a significant cultural difference. At my latest BBQ I did not receive any thanks, donations, or people bringing things nor did I expect it. What I did get without asking is lots of helpers taking care of everything before, during, and after the event. I also got a chuckle from your experience as it seems like who would get the leftovers was predetermined. They especially took good care of me and I never needed to leave my chair for anything and felt like a prince. That was enough for me. I was just happy so many turned up.

[oldsparrow]

Traditionally if you host party and invite people because you have surplus resource and and to express your kindness. It is normal that guest of party hosted by hoghly resourceful people also get souvenir. In agricultural society many time they share the labour but feasting was the responsibility of the host. Now it depends on your social circle. Some people who know the sharing style or party and like it adopt it.

Some farang here adopt the Thai way. In the last Australian National Day party, they gave some kind of traditioanl Aus. ....seed cake to the guests.