A Question Of Etiquette

[Old Croc]

Etiquette has a lot to do with geography and class.

When I was younger, in Australia, it was normal to take an esky (cooler, chilly bin) to a party with your own drinks and bbq meats, salads, etc unless it was specifically stated that it was to be supplied.

Some friends of ours dropped out of the rat race, moved to hippy land (Bridgetown in this case) and put on a bbq, at their new rammed earth house, for a mixture of their city friends and their new alternate lifestyler mates.

One group brought heaps of drinks in eskies (to last the weekend) and the other group nothing, but they plundered the first groups alcohol as fast as they could get their grubby little hands on it. They left nothing, even consuming a baby's special containers of juice.

Class is something many lack no matter the country in which you live.

[toybits]

Culture shock. I believe you have a lot to learn about Thai culture. Your idea of having a party where people mingle and chat is very different from a Thai's idea of having a party. It took me many years to realize this. Usually, having a party is a very small affair. I am talking about one table of very close friends. Sometimes, people bring things with them to the "party". Other's won't. It is much more relaxed and free wheeling. Usually lots of booze involved and lots of finger food - but not the type you are accustomed to.

What you have to realize is you are now living in a different world where the rules are different. Get over that and you will survive.

Earlier this week my Thai partner and I hosted a BBQ party at our home in Isaan.

Around 30 of my partners immediate and extended family attended (including Aunts, Uncles, their partners, cousins, grandmother, sister & boyfriend, etc) and I was surprised to note that not one of them contributed any food or drink. This wasn't actually a problem as we'd bought half of Tescos in preparation for the event.

At the end of the evening they all departed without a single offering of thanks to the hosts and, with the exception of my partner's younger sister, no one even said good night. My partner's mother took it upon herself to gather all remnants of the buffet and took them home with her.

Coming from a society where it's the norm to turn up to a party with a bottle or two of wine (or beer) and to make a point of thanking your hosts at the end of the evening, my only thought as I sat there at the end of the evening - looking at the debris, including all the dishes, etc., was: "How Rude! Never Again!".

When I broached the subject with my partner, I was told that this is definitely part of Thai culture and, not as I suspect, this particular families culture. I later regretted asking about it as it's created a lot of tension and some considerable aggravation - the "Thai Family" being, of course, sacrosanct.

Can anyone shed any light as to whether this is a Thai trait or is it more likely specific to this one family?

Thanx.

[Hawaiian]

Whenever I take the wife's family out to eat or bring them something when we visit they are extremely polite about saying thank you. The children are also well mannered and always greet me with a wai. I consider myself a very polite person and enjoy socializing with my in-laws because they are pleasant people to be around.

Whenever we go to a Thai party here in Hawaii the women always decide among themselves who brings what if it is "potluck."

Formal parties are a little different. Normally the host provides all the food and drink. I rarely see anyone leave without saying

thank you and good bye. I like to think that my wife's family and friends have class.

[Daffy D]

I believe there is too much of this "It's the Thai culture" thing.

I don't see why the Thai half of the relationship cannot tell his/her relatives and friends something of the Farang culture so that guests can show respect and try to observe some the Farang culture.

I doubt that the guests would have been so disrespectful, arriving empty handed scoffing all they could manage AND then taking all the leftovers without even a thank you, if they were at a party of some respected person. I think it shows they have no respect for the Farang and unfortunately for him his partner if condoning this kind of behavior has little respect for him also.

There is much talk of "Face" in Thailand, I think in this situation the Thais have little respect for the "Face" of this Farang.

What if the Farangs parents and family members had been present hosting the party how would they have felt about such rude behavior? Would they have accepted that it was "the Thai Way" I doubt it.

I think we pander too much to the "Thai way" and get exploited because of it. If a Thai gets into a relationship with a Farang they should remember it's a two way thing. I they don't want to make any concessions to the "Farang way" they should stay with their own.

[mahtin]

How much respect of the lady's culture is shown (or known) when she visits Farangland?

[MiG16]

i think some of you, in your scepticism of how thais respect or dont respect farangs, miss the point.

i remember a while ago somebody posted a thread asking what they should take to a dinner at the GF's house (where her parents invited him). there were lots of suggestion. I remember after reading some suggestions about food/dessert/fruit, my comment on that was: if you decide to take food, make it something that need not be consumed on the day. ie. something that they can keep, rather than dessert for the day. the idea is - you dont want to take food to suggest that the host will not provide enough.

its just different perspective. in thailand, or at least the parts I know, as I mentioned previously, if somebody invites you to a meal, you dont take food. in some instances, the host may even take offense if you do (it feels like you are suggesting they wont provide enough food).

of course in the big cities, where people have been exposed to the western way, things have changed. even the Thais will do things in somewhat western way.

I remember recently I was invited by relatives to tea. (just tea, not dinner or lunch). I showed up with a box of chocolates, and a box of nougat - just my gesture of wanting to share something nice with them (and some of the influence western exposure has had on me). when I got there I remember the relatives looking at me really weird, and even my brother made some comment about me bringing a little 'gift'.

mind you - my reasoning/explanation above is in no way intended to justify bad social manners of not showing appreciation to the host. you can show this in a number of ways - western style might be in the form of bringing a little gift. other ways can be simple and sincere thanks. yet others can be offering to help with the cooking prior, or cleaning after. yet another might be to invite your host for a meal at your place on another occasion.

[simon43]

I think it's an Issan thing, but a trait practiced by a few rude and/or ignorant families.

My ex and her family exhibited this trait, never offering thanks after I had driven them the 800km to/from Bangkok, never offering to pay towards the petrol costs, never saying thank-you when I bought them a drink etc.

Happily divorced now, I have managed to learn a few of these peculiar Issan habits. When speaking to my ex or any of her family, I will stop in mid-sentence and wave them away when a friend telephones me. If any of them call me, I am expert at the Issan trait of hanging up the phone in mid-speech.

I feel that I understand their culture much better now

Simon

Edited August 16, 2009 by simon43

[elkangorito]

I've never understood why people invite others round for a meal or a drink and expect them to bring their own food or booze?

May as well stay at home.

I agree with the above post. Playing with "Guilt trips" is not a good idea for anybody.

I have hosted many a party (in Australia) & been invited to many a party (in Australia & Thailand).

Regarding the parties I've hosted, no guest was asked or subliminally required to bring anything. Even if people didn't say "Thanks" at the end of the party, the smile on their face was more than enough "thanks" in itself.

If people did bring something, it was always appreciated but never required. My guests did not gain more favour or respect from me if they brought something...I treated all of my guests equally.

In Thailand, I've been to many a party. On all occasions, I've arrived empty handed. On all occasions, I've thanked the host(s) if I wasn't too drunk. If I was too drunk, I was extremely happy, which seemed to otherwise satisfy the host.

In terms of formal Thai Etiquette, did you know that it is considered rude, as a guest, to eat all of your meal? Leaving some food is a way of saying to the Thai host that they have supplied you with ample food. To me, it's a waste of food & on the odd occasion that I have devoured the entire meal, I made it very well known that the meal was not only superb but I was full to the brim & could not possibly squeeze in another thing.

I adopt a simple idea; high expectations can lead to big disappointments. Big smiles, laughter & happiness always indicate a positive result...even if no "thanks" are given.

[GrahamF]

i think some of you, in your scepticism of how thais respect or dont respect farangs, miss the point.

i remember a while ago somebody posted a thread asking what they should take to a dinner at the GF's house (where her parents invited him). there were lots of suggestion. I remember after reading some suggestions about food/dessert/fruit, my comment on that was: if you decide to take food, make it something that need not be consumed on the day. ie. something that they can keep, rather than dessert for the day. the idea is - you dont want to take food to suggest that the host will not provide enough.

its just different perspective. in thailand, or at least the parts I know, as I mentioned previously, if somebody invites you to a meal, you dont take food. in some instances, the host may even take offense if you do (it feels like you are suggesting they wont provide enough food).

of course in the big cities, where people have been exposed to the western way, things have changed. even the Thais will do things in somewhat western way.

I remember recently I was invited by relatives to tea. (just tea, not dinner or lunch). I showed up with a box of chocolates, and a box of nougat - just my gesture of wanting to share something nice with them (and some of the influence western exposure has had on me). when I got there I remember the relatives looking at me really weird, and even my brother made some comment about me bringing a little 'gift'.

mind you - my reasoning/explanation above is in no way intended to justify bad social manners of not showing appreciation to the host. you can show this in a number of ways - western style might be in the form of bringing a little gift. other ways can be simple and sincere thanks. yet others can be offering to help with the cooking prior, or cleaning after. yet another might be to invite your host for a meal at your place on another occasion.

Hey Mig, just curious, what is your background/backstory. No disrespect intended at all, but I am a little confused as to your heritage.

[MiG16]

Im Thai, but in recent years have been somewhat exposed to aspects of western culture

[KLExpat]

This is an interesting question so I discussed it with the wife. It was all quite clear to her so though I would post her thoughts. Please note these opinions are from a Southern/Bangkok perspective. Also, the in-laws place in the hierarchy of things comes from their work (government servants), so her perspective on “village face” is detached and clinical….for those who live in the village/a rural environment, this I serious stuff and such a perspective would be difficult.

According to the wife, there are only a few occasions that would merit big house party and those reasons are related to ceremonies such as a housewarming (keun baan mai) and in this example, guests would be expected to bring something.

She feels the only other reasons for hosting a LARGE party are related to face (and I suppose I should say she sees it as a waste of money). While the OP refers to the party being “co-hosted” with the partner (not clear what partner means but let’s assume a wife), the party was likely a face gaining exercise for the wife to the extended family/guests saying “I married well”, “my husband/ cohabitating life partner is is rich”. Remember in the eyes of most in Isaan, Farang are rich and hence a desirable “catch” which needs to be broadcast at periodic intervals to the surrounding vicinity. In such a party, the guests would come, gorge, drink and leave once satiated and not think anything of it – after all, that is the point – sharing the wealth - if they were expected to being something, what is the point of coming?. So, in this context, to answer the OP’s question on etiquette, the guests were NOT being rude. The party itself would be very socially important to the partner and any questioning of the guests actions by the OP (why did they not bring something?, let’s not do this again) would be very upsetting (or even seen by the partner as rude on the OP’s part). From the partner’s perspective, after all, if the purpose of the party is to be the “big host” and if this was successful, why call it a failure if the guests did not bring something?

While this type of face saving activity would be more common in Issan, it could be found anywhere as the poster from Trang pointed out. I suppose my wife’s point is that in Thai culture, there is not really a reason to throw a BIG party (except ceremonies of course) other than showing off/gaining face..announcing to the world you have money..(especially in rural Issan).

In a similar vein, when Thai’s get together for their birthday, usually the cost is shared by guests or even hosted by the person with the birthday. I have talked to people who have thrown huge bashes for their wives (even one hiring a band)...while such things are often explained to the husband as “normal”, again, it is not normal at all and is all about the wife’s face.

“Normal” parties of course do happen, but most I/we have I have heard of, hosted or been to as guest with PEERS (co-workers, old school mates) the guests always contribute to the food/ drink or help clean up or an the minimum wai the host on the way out and say thanks. If it is a smaller family function or you are invited to someone’s home, the host is the host and you are not expected to make a contribution. (but of course wai on the way out and say thanks).

[tim armstrong]

Yes its an interesting one. We have had many parties over the years at our home near Nakhon Sawan. Country people around here are generally polite and generous, saying thankyou on leaving, and offerring to clean up. Some but not all bring something. The more they are aware of this farlang custom the more they seem to respond. It also does seem to depend on education and awareness rather than class. But curiously, even though I have made good friendships of neighbours and other locals, who are teachers, business people etc, except for a neighbour who lives across the road, we are hardly ever invited to parties at their homes. We get lots of invites to weddings, funerals, and becoming a monk parties, but no house parties as such.

I have assumed that this is because we have a large farlang house, and our friends, who really are genuinely good people, think their own homes are not good enough by comparison. Of course its not true and doesn't bother us at all. I have also given up on 'inviting a few people around for drinks'. Somehow my wife and family think this is a signal to show off their considerable cooking skills, and we end up with 30 people, food, karaoke, and the whole show. But rudeness - hardly ever.

[qwertz]

Different folks have different notions of courtesy - try offering an orthodox Jew a handshake.

Or opening the door of a bar for a German lady and ushering her in first.

The degree of offence you feel is in proportion to your own innate politeness.

I had good manners drilled into me at an early age and was also taught not to take offence over the

impoliteness of others.

However, I find good manners serve me as well in TL as they do elsewhere if manners are lacking - why worry, I

get over it.

[RealityCheck]

I'd like to thank everyone for your earnest and considered responses to my OP.

There is much to think about, but I guess the final answer has to be: "go with the flow" and just "chill out".

Now that I know what to expect, of course we'll host more parties; probably enjoy them more now that I'm more Thai-culture savvy.

[doggie888888]

From where I come from, if my guests do bring something, it is appreciated but certainly not expected. BYO is the exception, in which case it is clearly mentioned.

Equally, it is truly bad form to throw a party and then carry on like a pork chop afterwards about the guests not offerring or bringing anything. What sort of hosts judge their guests on the basis of what the guests contribute (or don't contribute) to a party? Although I would always bring something (only because it's nice, not because I think it is expected of me) I would avoid parties by hosts who actually expect something and whom I know would make a big deal and bitch over who brought what or moan about people who didn't bring anything.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

To the OP,

I reckon your attitude is right - you can't 'judge' your Thai family by standards which you would judge your 'blood family'.

I almost feel pity for people ( and posters) who seemingly 'rant' that Thais should do this or that because it's 'what we do in the west' - it's a different place with different, traditions, customs and notions.... when will you stop banging your head against the wall???

Of course, I many be talking BS and the truth could be that your wife's family are just very rude!

Either way, not a lot you can do about it, so again, I feel your outlook to be the best one to have. Good on you,

Cheers

James