What's Bad In Thailand Is Bad Elsewhere: So It's Not Bad In Thailand. (!?)

[Jingthing]

There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

That's a horrible statement to make, but I agree with it 100% none the less.

So that makes Thailand the HUB of global losers?

That's great!

BTW, what's a loser? Someone who usually loses the lottery? In the fullness of time, all people are so called losers.

Ann Rand lives, ain't it a shame ...

Edited August 21, 2009 by Jingthing

[sokal]

Very often on Thai Visa we are told that there is some bad stuff goin' down in Thailand. Then some bright spark says "well, the same bad stuff is goin' down in other places as well, so stop gettin' down on Thailand".This is an example of the single most common fallacy in argument on Thai Visa.

In general form, the putative argument goes as follows:

Premiss 1: X (where X is a bad thing) is common in Thailand

Premiss 2: X is common somewhere else too.

Therefore:

Conclusion. ?????

I don't even know what one is supposed to conclude from these two premisses. Is it that it is not important that X is bad in Thailand? If so, the argument is surely unsound. The fact that X is bad in a country other than Thailand does nothing to undermine the fact that X is bad in Thailand, nor does it do anything to undermine whatever importance the fact that X is bad in Thailand has.

As far as I can see, the *only* thing that mentioning that X is bad somewhere else can do is influence people to stop thinking about the point at issue and start talking about the totally irrelevant issue of what is happening somewehre else.

Please, people, if the issue is something that is bad in Thailand, focus! It is totally irrelevant to whether or not something is bad in Thailand, and totally irrelevant to what ought to be done about it, to say "well, the same bad stuff happens somewhere else, too".

Examples:

Corruption in the Customs Department is bad inThailand. "Oh, but it's bad in other places as well". So what?

A very large proportion of small businesses started by Thai women using their boyfriends' funds fail. "Oh, but businesses fail everywhere." So what?

The murder rate is high in Thailand. "Oh, but it's high in other places as well." So what?

You have to compare it to other places because how do you know if a stat is high if you don't compare ?

murder is high based on what ?

[sokal]

There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

That's a horrible statement to make, but I agree with it 100% none the less.

So that makes Thailand the HUB of global losers?

That's great!

BTW, what's a loser? Someone who usually loses the lottery? In the fullness of time, all people are so called losers.

Ann Rand lives, ain't it a shame ...

Allot of the guys that are not considered losers in there home country because they are putting on a good show with there wife and kids at home but little does anyone know that he is in Thailand cheating on their wives.

[thaihome]

What the Thai bashers on this forum so often do is try to label an issue as if it is unique to Thailand (TIT being the most common example). What others try to point out is that most often it is not a unique issue to Thailand and is likely just as prevalent or even more so in other developing countries, which in most cases the Thai basher has never visited, much less lived or worked in.

TH

[MrJohnson]

There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

That's a horrible statement to make, but I agree with it 100% none the less.

Sh!$!t in - sh#^#t out - am I correct in summarizing this way? My apologies if I got it wrong but I am trying to 'Focus'!

[chrisartist]

You have to compare it to other places because how do you know if a stat is high if you don't compare ?

murder is high based on what ?

----Perhaps based on most people perceiving it as high; everyone has a threshold beyond which they would start to reckon that Thailand isn;t  asafe place to live.

----Perhaps based on comparison with previous stats for Thailand.

Doesn't have to be "high"; could be "a lot", where "a lot" is defined in terms of what most people think is a lot or in terms of what the rate was in a previous period in Thailand.

[chrisartist]

So what? So perhaps you ought to consider other opinions which may be more considered and perhaps more analytical? Perhaps you need a sense of perspective on the myriad of "bad" in Thailand, both real and perceived. Perhaps other people who point out similar problems elsewhere are merely reminding you that you ought not to lose your cool in this heat over something that obviously happens elsewhere and wanted to share their own coping mechanisms. Perhaps, and just perhaps, there are other people who simply do not share your opinion and "logic", who are in fact rather happy and satisfied with life here.

So please don't for one moment feel offended that many of us do not feel like jumping on the "another-nail-in-the-coffin-thailand-is-bad" bandwagon...maybe because we manage to keep our sense of perspective in recognising, understanding and coping with the many real issues that exists in Thailand.

And lastly, please don't interpret this as a diversion from your point; becasue I am not trying to "influence people to stop thinking about the point at issue and start talking about the totally irrelevant issue". To be honest this is not a debate, merely an alternate view which you are free to reject: up to you

I was merely pointing out a fallacious form of argument. The content of the particular propositions that I used to illustrate the point has no bearing on what I was trying to do.

Please don't assume that I am not satisfied with life here; there is no warrant for such a view in anything that I said.

I'm not offended because many people don't feel like jumping on the "another-nail-in-the-coffin-thailand-is-bad" bandwagon, because I was pointing out a fallacious form of argument, not stating a point of view or stating my own opinion regarding Thailand.

Sorry, but I'm not too keen on your putting "logic" in parenthesis, as if to suggest that my logic is not logic. I taught formal and philosophical logic to undergraduates and Master's students at Cambridge for six years. I know what's logical and what's not.

Still, you don't have to agree with me. Obviously, it's up to you...

I'm not being confrontational here; just clarifying a few points.

[dumbnewbie]

I think in many cases these arguments are made not just to dismiss the problem, but to put things in perspective. In Thailand you have police taking "incentives" to not ticket you, which sucks but not near as much as Cambodia not letting you drive at all.

Do you mean that Cambodia doesn't let foreigners drive at all, or that it doesn't let people drive after they've been pulled over for reckless driving or whatever?

If the latter, then I'd greatly prefer Cambodia's system, as it should lead to fewer accidents, injuries and deaths.

[emsfeld]

Thx for the Logic 101 lecture, but you are missing the point. Of course this is no argument to rationalise anything, however, it goes to show how hypocritical some people are bashing Thailand whilst the very same things are going on in the countries they come from where everything "is better" (US/UK/Oz/EU does things this way why dont the Thais do it like that and so on...rubbish).

[chrisartist]

Thx for the Logic 101 lecture, but you are missing the point. Of course this is no argument to rationalise anything, however, it goes to show how hypocritical some people are bashing Thailand whilst the very same things are going on in the countries they come from where everything "is better" (US/UK/Oz/EU does things this way why dont the Thais do it like that and so on...rubbish).

Ther's nothing hypocritical about addressing a problem in one place when the same sorts of thing are goling on in another place. People are addressing a problem in the place where they live. End of story. Whether or not the same thing goes on elsewhere is 100% irrelevant to whether or not it needs to be addressed in Thailand. Of course, it may well be that the problem needs to be addressed elsewhere; but that's irrelevant to whether or not people who live in Thailand need to address the problem in Thailand. If the solution to a problem works elsewhere, you can cite the measures that were taken elsewhere if you think that the same measures would work in Thailand.

As an aside, I am a little perplexed by your claim that people cite what happens elsewhere as a means to highlight hypocrisy. If that is the purpose, perhaps it would not be outwith the bounds of imagination to suppose that, at some point, someone would have said explicitly that thet is what they were doing; and if they did, it would automatically lift what they said out of the fallacious argument category. Then their argument would just be mistaken. On the other hand, in cases where the purpose of citing what happens elsewhere is not stated, a fallacy is being committed.

[IanForbes]

I find it hard to criticize a country I CHOOSE to visit and spend every winter in. I can make general observations and compare what various countries have to offer, but it still comes down to my choice to visit some place that has obvious problems. Most of us are aware of the problems in Thailand, just as we are aware of the problems in our own country, but there is nothing we can do as expats to improve the problems in Thailand. If we spend any length of time in Thailand it's because we figure the good out weighs the bad.

In Canada I see many things that upset me. I see hypocrisy everywhere. I see far too many politicians who do absolutely nothing but sit at the public supplied feeding trough. I see head politicians influence the top bureaucrats, and in so doing mess up what should be a great country. And, that is in a stable country that has a democratic voting system. There is nothing I can do about it so why complain? In Thailand I have absolutely no influence at all... unless it is at a personal level where I might be able to help someone financially.

It is human nature to complain. but too much of it gets boring.

[dumbnewbie]

Excellent post, IanForbes. I'm still a bit new here, but after reading this thread, it seems to me that we could all be better off if we focus more on problems we have some control over rather than just venting about things we have no control over. This would involve sharing personal experiences and useful info with each other, especially on how we overcome whatever problems are common to expats in Thailand.

The first step is to recognize that if you're in Thailand, it's because Thailand is the best place you know of to be at the moment. If not, the solution is simple - go to that other place that you think would be a better overall fit for you at this time.

Once you accept that being in Thailand is your choice, both past and present, the next step is to focus on how to have the best life you can in Thailand, given the way Thailand is, because we can't change it, and even ordinary Thai people can't change it.

I don't know... I'm just trying to imagine how Japanese or Korean businessmen or Chinese or Indian immigrants relate to each other when in foreign countries. I doubt they bitch about things they have no control over, or bash the countries they've chosen to live in, or argue with each other for the sake of argument, or call each other "losers".

My guess is that they're always trying to get ahead, for their own sake and for their children:

"Where are the safest neighborhoods with the best schools?"

"What areas of the city are best avoided?"

"Where's the money? Where's are the business opportunities?"

"How can we get our kids into the best universities?"

"Where can we get the best medical/dental care, or the best legal advice, etc.?"

"Which are the best insurance companies/plans, and how much do they cost?"

"What are some pitfalls that have happened to others like us, and how can we avoid them?"

"What are some success stories by people like us, and what can we learn from them?"

I'm going to stop here because I suspect this whole post was a mistake and inappropriate to the thread. My apologies if it was.

[chrisartist]

I find it hard to criticize a country I CHOOSE to visit and spend every winter in. I can make general observations and compare what various countries have to offer, but it still comes down to my choice to visit some place that has obvious problems. Most of us are aware of the problems in Thailand, just as we are aware of the problems in our own country, but there is nothing we can do as expats to improve the problems in Thailand. If we spend any length of time in Thailand it's because we figure the good out weighs the bad.

In Canada I see many things that upset me. I see hypocrisy everywhere. I see far too many politicians who do absolutely nothing but sit at the public supplied feeding trough. I see head politicians influence the top bureaucrats, and in so doing mess up what should be a great country. And, that is in a stable country that has a democratic voting system. There is nothing I can do about it so why complain? In Thailand I have absolutely no influence at all... unless it is at a personal level where I might be able to help someone financially.

It is human nature to complain. but too much of it gets boring.

I am in strong agreement with what you say here. In general, I find that trying to get things fixed and attempting to fix things that it is beyond my control to affect detracts greatly from the amount of time I can spend on my own projects.....and I would rather spend time on my own projects, both for enjoyment and because the results will be beneficial to other people.

I made the original post because the irritation I was feeling at reading masses of confused argument was detracting from my enjoyment of reading sensible responses to interesting issues. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to fix that. Perhaps I should simply compile a massive list of people whose posts I will ignore.

[Eggmeng]

QUOTE (cdnvic @ 2009-08-20 13:36:24) I think in many cases these arguments are made not just to dismiss the problem, but to put things in perspective. In Thailand you have police taking "incentives" to not ticket you, which sucks but not near as much as Cambodia not letting you drive at all.

Do you mean that Cambodia doesn't let foreigners drive at all, or that it doesn't let people drive after they've been pulled over for reckless driving or whatever?

If the latter, then I'd greatly prefer Cambodia's system, as it should lead to fewer accidents, injuries and deaths.

I acquired my Cambodia driver's license about 6 weeks after I applied for it in Phnom Penh, and was never impeded from driving during the 18 months I lived there.

I was pulled over by the cops if I was caught committing a traffic violation, but never without legitimate reason. Now as for road safety, that another (horrific) matter.

Sorry to digress.