Terminating Thai Staff

[Serpico]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

[rfukata]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

check with HR (Thai labor law); develop performance base ratings i.e; performance appraisals, enact job descriptions

and have them adhere to them

[Valjean]

In my experince, both in my own company and in a multi-national here it's in many respects easier than the US. You just have to pay severence pay at an extablished rate depending on how long they have worked. I don't think the US type "just cause" is a much of a factor. It's very hard to make a case for not paying the serverence. If they just stop comming or are caught with the and in the till maybe but just assume you have to pay the severvence.

[nakachalet]

serpico

how about telling us what type of industry are you a manager in? which makes a major difference in terminating procedure?

disruptive behaviors are so vague and general. as a manager, you need to be specific in describing the types of behavior that you consider undesirable or disruptive.... otherwise you might get yourself into hot water. your superiors might or might not consider nor see eye to eye with your description....

i would consult with human resource before attempting to describe a certain disruptive behavior so as not to be a laughing stock later....

pls take into consideration local cultural differences and practices which could differ significantly from north to south of thailand....

good luck and stay the course of doing it right every day, every time and all the time....

[puyaidon]

If you do terminate one or more of your Thai staff, don't be surprised if some or all of their friends quit on you. They place a lot of stock in supporting their friends. A friend of mine dismissed one person and five quit in support of their friend. Can you afford to lose more than just the one?

[ralfbkk]

To terminate some one here is difficult. Period.

Thai Labor Law is on the side of the employee's and there are lots of steps to be taken before you have some one terminated. Severance Pay, telling the staff that the company has to cut down on cost etc. is the easiest. If you do not pay severance you will be in court in due course ( some one mentioned it wont be easy to make a case - actually it is pretty simple).

Ask yourself what might be wrong in your company, department or section. Try to find the root cause. May be you are the problem or they do not get well along with you. Thai's working attitude is so much different than ours. We can not copy our way of working to them. Of course, I do not want to protect anyone, but most of the time these problems are caused by simple misunderstandings.

One thing I recommend is, are job descriptions, defining clearly every ones tasks, responsibilities and their targets. If they fail within these descriptions than you can start to do write ups. A 3rd write up gives you the right to terminate some ones contract. Talking about contracts, most Thai Companies do not have a contract, but I would recommend you look in to the current contracts of your staff and if you do not have one than I would suggest you start contracting your staff. There you can clearly define their position, working hours, salary, insurance etc.

Here are some interesting reads : http://www.ethailand.com/index.php?thai_labor_law

I could write so much more, but please do look in to each individual and try to find out what the problem is. Do not confront them directly. Take them aside, in to your office, and talk to them face to face. Most will open up.

[mca]

One thing I recommend is, are job descriptions, defining clearly every ones tasks, responsibilities and their targets. If they fail within these descriptions than you can start to do write ups. A 3rd write up gives you the right to terminate some ones contract.

In my wife's company it's 2 verbal and then a written warning setting out that it's your final warning and then you're out. All the warnings are put on record by HR. The written warning has to be signed by the member of staff being warned in acknowledgment that they accept it as a final warning.The cases for instant dismissal are things like theft, fighting, absenteeism for more than 2 days without reason etc. Things like still a bit drunk from the night before or late on a few occasions are at first usually an off the record "friendly chat"

Where a member of staff is under performing as ralfbkk mentioned then a written record is made in the areas where the staff is under performing and the staff are given a list of their responsibilities targets and duties. The staff have to sign both the record and the responsibilities and duties and are given a 3 month period to shape up followed by an assessment of their performance. The staff also have to sign an acknowledgment that if they fail to meet the criteria after the 3 month period they will voluntarily resign.

[chillibilly]

I work in Thailand, not an owner of a business here--But, if the company is more of a large international company, it can be harder to dismiss soneone. With a small Thai shop/ business it is easier.

[AlexLah]

Could you please provide some examples of their disruptive behavior or is it just that you want to show them who's "The Boss" since you are new.

[Serpico]

I accepted a condo manager position last week. The last manager drank all day, played video and stole.

He never directed the staff. Let them loaf.

Our place is falling apart. Never had a fire drill. 75% of my emergency lighting are bad. Water pump broken etc. Security recorder disabled..........

Some of the staff work fine, some don't do a thing.

The board of Directors asked me to turn the place around. I have 100% backup from them.

My engineer is scheduled to work from 2Pm till 11PM.

He clocks in, goes to the engineer room, plays video, waits till the office closes, takes my tools and works down the street in another building. His salary is 14,000.

My gardener shows up at 8, works an hour then leaves. Trash and dead plants all over the place. Yesterday he took leave. Says he is going to be a Monk for 10 days. Not true. Hi salary is 13,500.

My maids wont follow orders and take naps. The don't clean. They are disrespectful to me and my assistant. One is saying she has a holiday scheduled.....Salary 8,000.

They now have a manager that will ask them to be on time and work. They told my assistant to fire them so they can collect severance.

My good workers are pleased with me. The lazy ones are taking the piss.

They don't have contracts and no job descriptions can be found in our files.

I ran a company several years and and think I know what to expect.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Serpico

[raro]

Looks like a fun task!

As for video games etc, I would recommend re-installing all computers from the scratch, giving the users no admin rights, thus preventing them from installing any software by themselves. Next step would be closing the ports for msn, yahoo etc and we are in a perfect working environment. Chances are, that the staff in question is pissed off enough that they leave by themselves.

Maids not following orders, gardeners disappearing etc: Staff meeting, lay out in no uncertain terms that things will shape up. As others suggested, make clear job descriptions and discuss those with each and everyone in a 1:1 meeting. Then enforce the new rules and do regular performance checks.

If you're lucky the foulest apples will leave the company on their own account, saving you the severance pay. Employ new staff only after the biggest trouble makers have left to avoid negative influence from day one.

[rkidlad]

If you do terminate one or more of your Thai staff, don't be surprised if some or all of their friends quit on you. They place a lot of stock in supporting their friends. A friend of mine dismissed one person and five quit in support of their friend. Can you afford to lose more than just the one?

Is this a funny joke? Thais having each other's backs. What next?

[Serpico]

Looks like a fun task!

As for video games etc, I would recommend re-installing all computers from the scratch, giving the users no admin rights, thus preventing them from installing any software by themselves. Next step would be closing the ports for msn, yahoo etc and we are in a perfect working environment. Chances are, that the staff in question is pissed off enough that they leave by themselves.

Maids not following orders, gardeners disappearing etc: Staff meeting, lay out in no uncertain terms that things will shape up. As others suggested, make clear job descriptions and discuss those with each and everyone in a 1:1 meeting. Then enforce the new rules and do regular performance checks.

If you're lucky the foulest apples will leave the company on their own account, saving you the severance pay. Employ new staff only after the biggest trouble makers have left to avoid negative influence from day one.

Job descriptions are something I need help with.

I've been around here about 20 years and I noticed a maid won't do laundry. An engineer won't pick up trash or paint. Gardener won't drive our tuk tuk.

Seems they are all specialists.

Need to nail down the duties for my;

Engineers.

Maids.

Gardener.

Guards.

Drivers.

[MrHammer]

Why don't you try rewarding your good workers? Take them for a night out, buy them tickets to a show and so on, but DON'T give any to your lazy staff. In other words, create a strong group for the good workers and keep the bad workers out. In my opinion, being left out of the group is very uncomfortable for Thais. Make them quit. In other words, do some low key harassment.

[mca]

My engineer is scheduled to work from 2Pm till 11PM.

He clocks in, goes to the engineer room, plays video, waits till the office closes, takes my tools and works down the street in another building. His salary is 14,000.

My gardener shows up at 8, works an hour then leaves. Trash and dead plants all over the place. Yesterday he took leave. Says he is going to be a Monk for 10 days. Not true. Hi salary is 13,500.

My maids wont follow orders and take naps. The don't clean. They are disrespectful to me and my assistant. One is saying she has a holiday scheduled.....Salary 8,000.

They now have a manager that will ask them to be on time and work. They told my assistant to fire them so they can collect severance.

As I mentioned verbal, verbal then written warning. Make an official record of all of them. Dates, times, situations. Then they're out. Severance pay? They're having a laugh.

Sure the labour department are on the staffs side. Basically because the staff go to the labour department and whine about unfair dismissal thinking they're due for some payout and are slightly economical with the truth concerning their dismissal.. When my wife's company fires them about a quarter of them contact the labour department in this manner. I swear to God if one of them got wasted on meth, headbutted the GM and was fired on the spot he'd say he was unfairly dismissed.

Here's an example.

Driver found severly hungover. Verbal warning.

Despite assurances it was a one off the next week he was found sleeping off a bender in his store room. Verbal warning (although sleeping on the job is a dismissible offence) because he turned on the waterworks and said he had a family to support. My wife's company aren't tyrants although me personally would have kicked his arse out there and then.

A month later absent for 3 days. Phone turned off etc. Comes back on the 4th day saying he'd been sick. Doctor's note? Ha ha. Instant dismissal.

Labour call up all Puu Yai saying this guy had contacted them saying he'd been kicked out "for no reason" and demanding compensation or reinstatement. HR read the staff's record over the phone and asked labour if they'd like to come in for a chat and inspect the file. No thank you that won't be necessary.

I think the way forward is to write a set of rules and regulations and the consequences of breaking those rules and regulations. Make it formal and ensure each member of staff gets a copy and acknowledges they have read and understand them. Keep a copy on record. Of course staff need protection from unscrupulous bosses but you as a manager have every right to protect your business from unscrupulous staff and with some of the incidents my wife and her HR tell me there are some real piss takers out there.

[rossco4434]

My engineer is scheduled to work from 2Pm till 11PM.

He clocks in, goes to the engineer room, plays video, waits till the office closes, takes my tools and works down the street in another building. His salary is 14,000.

My gardener shows up at 8, works an hour then leaves. Trash and dead plants all over the place. Yesterday he took leave. Says he is going to be a Monk for 10 days. Not true. Hi salary is 13,500.

My maids wont follow orders and take naps. The don't clean. They are disrespectful to me and my assistant. One is saying she has a holiday scheduled.....Salary 8,000.

They now have a manager that will ask them to be on time and work. They told my assistant to fire them so they can collect severance.

As I mentioned verbal, verbal then written warning. Make an official record of all of them. Dates, times, situations. Then they're out. Severance pay? They're having a laugh.

Sure the labour department are on the staffs side. Basically because the staff go to the labour department and whine about unfair dismissal thinking they're due for some payout and are slightly economical with the truth concerning their dismissal.. When my wife's company fires them about a quarter of them contact the labour department in this manner. I swear to God if one of them got wasted on meth, headbutted the GM and was fired on the spot he'd say he was unfairly dismissed.

Here's an example.

Driver found severly hungover. Verbal warning.

Despite assurances it was a one off the next week he was found sleeping off a bender in his store room. Verbal warning (although sleeping on the job is a dismissible offence) because he turned on the waterworks and said he had a family to support. My wife's company aren't tyrants although me personally would have kicked his arse out there and then.

A month later absent for 3 days. Phone turned off etc. Comes back on the 4th day saying he'd been sick. Doctor's note? Ha ha. Instant dismissal.

Labour call up all Puu Yai saying this guy had contacted them saying he'd been kicked out "for no reason" and demanding compensation or reinstatement. HR read the staff's record over the phone and asked labour if they'd like to come in for a chat and inspect the file. No thank you that won't be necessary.

I think the way forward is to write a set of rules and regulations and the consequences of breaking those rules and regulations. Make it formal and ensure each member of staff gets a copy and acknowledges they have read and understand them. Keep a copy on record. Of course staff need protection from unscrupulous bosses but you as a manager have every right to protect your business from unscrupulous staff and with some of the incidents my wife and her HR tell me there are some real piss takers out there.

In regards to any computers.

As an IT person I would suggest (as above) format the computers and give them normal user access. Disable the internet if you can as it's just pointless.

If you can't disable the internet bring a consultant in who can do a proxy server which can filter the internet. Only allow set web pages and the email to come through.

This will stop them downloading AND installing anything. Make sure you have an anti-virus on all your computers as staff can be very sneaky with keyloggers.

Once you have done this, tell everybody their internet is being monitored and run reports from the proxy on the users and ask them to justify their usage.

Obviously try and do this in a respectful way so people do not lose face.

In regards to motivating or firing people:

There's multiple layers in motivating people but the first thing I would say, is try the positive approach first. Your current staff will know they are working for a good boss and will encourage the other lazy staff to work harder or piss off. People respect other people who work hard and do good things. You need everybody on side and need to look good at all times.

JD's and the correct HR route is very important. Then use that against the very worst person which will do a good job as well in combination with above. (don't forget quarterly reviews are important).

But always try the positive things first...it will go a long way.

[CWMcMurray]

Lets see...

I believe "stealing" is an offense that will allow you to dismiss immediately... so the next time if you can catch him taking the tools out, stop him and search him. If he has the tools, fire him on the spot for theft.

Also if you can prove the gardener is not actually going to be a monk then wait for him to be gone for three days then break out the proof and fire him for taking more than 3 days off without reason.

This may help to get the rest in line...

[mca]

Lets see...

I believe "stealing" is an offense that will allow you to dismiss immediately... so the next time if you can catch him taking the tools out, stop him and search him. If he has the tools, fire him on the spot for theft.

Also if you can prove the gardener is not actually going to be a monk then wait for him to be gone for three days then break out the proof and fire him for taking more than 3 days off without reason.

This may help to get the rest in line...

Setting an example of a couple of the miscreants could shit up the other slackers into shaping up. You don't want the piss taken out of you as it could undermine your authority. From experience give some folks an inch and they'll certainly take that mile. My wife fired one girl for stealing a single can of Coke from the works canteen. She had a real job against some of the other director's who just wanted to give the girl a warning thinking my wife was being too hard on the girl but as my wife pointed out simply giving a warning would send a signal to other staff that it was OK to pilfer as it was only a warning offense if caught.

Nothing's gone AWOL since. If a couple of "unfortunates" (meaning people who deserve to be dismissed of course) lose their job as an example to others then so be it.

[Serpico]

Job descriptions draft.

Any suggestions?

Engineers:

Tasks:

Maintain systems, lighting, plumbing, electrical, drainage, pool equip., safety systems.

Painting, pressure washing, debris removal.

Troubleshoot and make recommendations to manager.

Emergency repair work for residents Ok.

Available on call, 24/7 for emergency repairs. (Overtime pay)

Extraordinary work for residents must go thru office.

Engineers can perform work on residential units on day off, out of uniform with own tools.

Assist the guards, receptionist, maids, manager.

Drive Tuk Tuk.

Follow schedule.

Attend staff meetings.

Flexible hours.

Attend English lessons.

Record daily log.

Maid;

Tasks:

Ensure clean orderly premises.

Keep inventory of supplies.

Examine areas and make recommendations for repairs.

Emergency repair work for residents Ok.

Extraordinary work for residents must go thru office.

Maids can perform work on residential units on day off, out of uniform with own tools.

Assist manager, reception, assistant, engineers, gardener, guards.

Wash and press uniforms.

Attend staff meetings.

Follow schedule.

Flexible hours.

Attend English lessons.

Record daily log.

Security;

Tasks:

Control and monitor entry of employees and visitors.

Patrol premises.

Detect signs of intrusion or unusual occurrences.

Keep video system in operational condition.

Monitor controls, air con, lighting & doors.

Maintain telephone contacts for emergencies.

Assist residents with parcels.

Keep work area neat and clean.

Assist the receptionist, maids, gardener & manager.

Drive Tuk Tuk.

Attend staff meetings.

Follow schedule.

Flexible hours.

Speak English and attend class.

Record Daily log.

Drivers;

Tasks:

Safely and efficiently operate Tuk Tuk.

Troubleshoot and repair equipment.

Maintain spare parts.

Report accidents.

Assist the residents, guards, manager, receptionist, engineers and gardener.

Flexible hours.

Attend English lessons.

Record daily log.

Gardener;

Tasks:

Maintain property in presentable condition.

Paint, pressure washing, remove debris & litter.

Make recommendations to manager.

Drive Tuk Tuk.

Assist engineer, maids, guards, receptionist, manager.

Attend staff meetings.

Follow schedule.

Flexible hours.

Attend English class.

Flexible hours

Record Daily log.

Receptionist;

Tasks:

Operate reception area.

Help residents.

Speak English.

Distribute mail.

Translate.

Assist office staff.

Assist engineer, maids, guards, manager.

Assistant Manager:

Tasks:

General office duties of condominium.

Administration, bookkeeping, accounting.

Operate computer.

Translate.

Help residents.

Speak English.

Assist receptionist, engineer, maids, guards, manager.

[lioness]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

Brilliant, new manager, wants to get rid of staff. Doesn't know how to do it, and needs help with job descriptions.

My thoughts would be is the new manager capable of doing the job?

[LadyHeather]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

Brilliant, new manager, wants to get rid of staff. Doesn't know how to do it, and needs help with job descriptions.

My thoughts would be is the new manager capable of doing the job?

Well, according to another post in the Bangkok forum, he's been around for 20 years and is well aware of how Thais think, so perhaps the staff he plans to fire aren't Thais.

[Serpico]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

Brilliant, new manager, wants to get rid of staff. Doesn't know how to do it, and needs help with job descriptions.

My thoughts would be is the new manager capable of doing the job?

I'm sensitive to the cultural issues and asking for advice.

The previous manager deleted our computers, stole all of our files. No contracts, job descriptions, performance reports staff rules, bylaws. Nothing.

I'm starting from scratch here and need some help.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Serpico

[raro]

The job descriptions look ok, but I would add who reports to whom. I would also include the working hours if not stipulated in the labour contract.

As others pointed out, if you sack someone with good reason he/she won't have a chance to sue you for severance pay. Making one example with your worst worker will probably shape up the rest. I also liked the idea of taking the good staff out for a dinner or something similar.

Also good is some seminar over a weekend in a resort away from work. Take your key staff with you and discuss with them what you expect and develop job descriptions etc together with them. Maybe take one of the foul apples with you as well. Taken out of the negative group they might eventually develop some enthusiasm.

[PatinBKk]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

Why were you offered the postion as you obviously have no people or man managment skills......

[onnut]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

Why were you offered the postion as you obviously have no people or man managment skills......

thats what I was thinking!

you are a manager and that means you have to manage people, you cant just fire people because there last manager let them get away with being the way they are. you have got to work with them and get them motivated. teach them to do there jobs in a way that keeps you happy. after 2-3 months if you still have some idiots not wanting to play ball then you can start handing out warnings but to do that you need to be very pre-emtive, 3 warnings on the same subject and bang there gone. but try to work with them first.

[Serpico]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

Why were you offered the postion as you obviously have no people or man managment skills......

I ran a property service and retired.

I am just looking for some friendly advice here.

[lioness]

you are a manager and that means you have to manage people, you cant just fire people because there last manager let them get away with being the way they are. you have got to work with them and get them motivated. teach them to do there jobs in a way that keeps you happy. after 2-3 months if you still have some idiots not wanting to play ball then you can start handing out warnings but to do that you need to be very pre-emtive, 3 warnings on the same subject and bang there gone. but try to work with them first.

This is so very true and staff are usually only as good as their Managers. Starting from scratch is great if you have the knowledge to handle it, this is the sort of challenge I used to love , you have a real opportunity to put your stamp on things.

I don't wish to be unkind, but I do get the impression that you are floundering a bit, maybe it's a bit out of your league.

[raro]

Those questioning Serpico's maanager skills would be right of Serpico was the Manager who screwed it up in the first place. As he is taking on a rather daunting task I think it is just fair to ask others for advise - and this is what a community such as TV is all about isn't it?

[2008bangkok]

I recently took a position as manager. Several of my staff are not performing, disruptive etc.

What are the procedures for getting rid of them?

perfect example of a crap manager... staff are not perorming get rid of them..have you ever thought why they are being disruptive etc....try managing them and maybe turning them around to be good workers..

and yes.. you WILL have to pay all of them severance of 90 days after 1 year with the company, 30 days notice period and all their holiday.. so your looking at 4months pay plus holiday for each of them else you will be hauled up to the labour court within a month

[mca]

and yes.. you WILL have to pay all of them severance of 90 days after 1 year with the company, 30 days notice period and all their holiday.. so your looking at 4months pay plus holiday for each of them else you will be hauled up to the labour court within a month

Unless he goes through the proper procedures of warnings before dismissal.