Can I Call The The Uk Eco A xxxxxxx

[teddy_bare]

My wife's tourist visa was submitted 60 days before the travel date (although these were flexible up to 73 days. The visa was refused after over 42 days with the visa section and was returned 5 days after that. That being the first we knew the visa was refused. My wife appealed four days later after gathering some more photos and recopying the bank statements and more importantly attending to my daughter who was in ICU. The appeal was based mainly on the grounds the ECO had managed to misread the 'reason for visit' clearly stated as to 'attend a wedding and meet my family'. The ECO stated my wife had applied to visit me and refused the visa because they didn't believe she would return! First mistake. I actually live in Thailand and have done for 6 years only returning once to the UK and stating my residency location in the supporting letter, which also indicated we would be travelling together to attend a wedding in the UK. So you managed to misread it at least twice. The ECO also said no bank statements were provided. Mistake number 2. They were handed to the UK Visa staff on application. The ECO also believed our marriage was questionable, despite actually writing in the refusal summery, that they realise family would suffer distrubance by the refusal. Mistake 3.

I took the appeal paperwork to the visa section, and calmy explained my brother's wedding was fixed for the 15th August. 'Could they make an exception and look at this case immediately since the grounds for appeal were mainly to cover the mistakes of the ECO and their ability to comphrend the application and supporting paperwork. I am and was extremely polite given the nature of my request. I was told I might not hear anything back for 2 months. I again, emphatised the importance and urgency. I received a blank look and was given an email address. BTW, I sent 3 emails, my brother also faxed over more information regarding the wedding and also sent them an email, no acknowledgement or answer was every received. So pointless having an address. The visa section doesn't take phone calls either.

The 15th arrived and passed. I travelled and attended the wedding without my wife and child. My family were very disappointed not to see my wife and first baby.

On the 23 August I received a letter from the UK saying I had to resubmit all my paperwork to immigration in the UK. So I guessed the Embassy staff had referred it to the UK for appeal.

Then just last week, my wife receives a call from the embassy saying her visa refusal has been overturned and she could collect the visa.

We collected the visa yesterday. I stayed polite and patient. As they issued the visa, they also handed back all the appeal paperwork.

Patient no more, but still in control of the rage I was feeling.

I politely asked the counter assistant, as she had returned the appeal paperwork and issued the visa was I correct in thinking the appeal wouldn't be heard in the UK? (I knew the answer of course). She said, ' That is correct'. I then asked , 'Since the appeal wasn't being heard, could I assume the ECO mistakes would not been seen by the UK appeals board?' She answered 'That is correct'. I then said, 'So by issuing the Visa the ECO has basically hidden the fact they made multiple mistakes and have managed to hide them? She said 'That is correct'. I thanked her for her honesty although rather naive IMO.

I asked if she could pass on my thanks to the ECO because not only had my wife and daughter missed 'ATENDING A WEDDING AND MEETING MY FAMILY' as stated in the original application, my father had just had a heart attack (and survived BTW). Had the heart attack been any worst he may have never met my wife or first child.

I have every respect for the UK embassy and have been there many times and I have never experienced any issues, but I have never had to deal with the Visa section before.

I understand the role and responsibility of an ECO must be extremely taxing and often stressful. I also guess that many of us have or have had jobs with the same or similar stresses. I am also guessing many people are in jobs above their ability and this leads to bad decision making or give them a false sense of worthfulness. This I can accept, because the UK system has an appeal system in place. What I cannot accept, is that lack of common sense in dealing with an appeal that was fairly straight forward and the reason for appeal was generated by the ECO themselves. The urgency was also relayed to your staff via oral and written communications. Had you accepted your mistake (which you obviously have as you have issued a freaking visa which now doesn't reflect the reason on the application!!!!!!!), in a timely manner, you could have issued it prior to the wedding date. This would have allow my family to meet my wife and first child. Instead, your arrogance and slovenly response has only shown you up as a weak individual who is hiding behind a system designed to help me a customer and a UK national. More damaging to the Embassy is that your mistakes will most probably remain hidden.

Due to work commitments we will have to travel to the UK in December, Oh joy. I hope my father is still alive by then.

I am posting this on a public forum since no answers or acknowledgements are ever returned via the limit mediums you communicate on. Check my other posting, I am not a usual ranter

Please respond.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The ECO have a bugger of a job and a significant percentage of dud applications from bent punters. When someone goes to the trouble you did one would expect a decent result in the first instance. I am sorry for your situation, but live with it. Passing on a

get stuffed message won't be in your own future visa interest. It isn't long to Christmas.

[Eff1n2ret]

That's a sorry tale of events.

You maybe have a misconception about the effect of appeal hearings, which function merely to overturn or uphold the original decision, but there's rarely, if ever, any comeback on the original decision-maker. One might feel that this is a weakness, because if individual ECOs were shown to have an abnormally high rate of overturned decisions at appeal hearings, it might highlight one or two who need remedial training, or transfer to another job.

The real offence in your case is the time taken to make the original decision, but particularly their failure to consider your further representations promptly when it was clear that time was of the essence. I doubt whether the case got referred to the UK - it probably got no further than the Entry Clearance Manager in Bangkok (if there is one at present), but he/she is in my opinion the real culprit.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

This happens regularly we put a visit visa for a girl who had been to the UK on a 1 month visit 1 year ago returned promptly.

We supplied land document asset her previous passport with visa in it, also 2 further copies of it etc etc.

In his refusal he wrote as you are a first time visitor to the UK ???

You have no assets or ties to your host country and little contact with your boyfriend 6 months phone calls 3 x per day ???

No right of appeal so we just waste another 3900 putting it back in.

[teddy_bare]

The ECO have a bugger of a job and a significant percentage of dud applications from bent punters. When someone goes to the trouble you did one would expect a decent result in the first instance. I am sorry for your situation, but live with it. Passing on a

get stuffed message won't be in your own future visa interest. It isn't long to Christmas.

She was given a visa yesterday. That is one of my points. Technically they have issued a visa on the basis of attending a wedding that has taken place. So they have issued a visa incorrectly according to their own rules.

They also have a problem communicating with the UK immigration, who are sending letters saying they need info to procedure with the appeal and the Bangkok embassy who will have been reveiwing the appeal with a view to reversing the original decision

As for p!ssing off the ECO. not a problem as i don't intend to go to the UK much and they must rotate out of those jobs fairly regularly or get sacked.

What I also find ironic is that they want photos, which to me don't prove much unless they are date stamped. Easy to forge on Photoshop if you wanted or needed. I offered to send or bring in the electionic copies as they have digital date stamping. No response of course.

It all smacks of poor work practises and judgement. I would have been less annoyed if the appeal had went ahead. It would have at least suggested they had the gumption to stand by the decisions. As someone else mentioned, the appeal panel arn't looking to catch ECO out, but my guess is there is a system that does record the amount of reserved decisions against the various ECO.

Maybe they have a league table for the dopest.

[teddy_bare]

This happens regularly we put a visit visa for a girl who had been to the UK on a 1 month visit 1 year ago returned promptly.

We supplied land document asset her previous passport with visa in it, also 2 further copies of it etc etc.

In his refusal he wrote as you are a first time visitor to the UK ???

You have no assets or ties to your host country and little contact with your boyfriend 6 months phone calls 3 x per day ???

No right of appeal so we just waste another 3900 putting it back in.

I am guessing you reiterated all of this in a supporting letter, yet they still managed to miss it.

The Thai staff asked my wife why she was putting her application in so early!!!! This was on the same day the Embassy annouced a 4-6 week turn around 90% of applications and 2 months for 100%.

I also dont understand the online appointment system, which we used. She still had to wait in a queue despite being 8 moths pregnant.

You either book an appointment and expect to get served around about that time or you turn up and take your chances. Seems like they have merged the booking an appoinment and take your chances = long wait and expectations unforfilled.

[orchidofsiam]

TVE Why didn't you issue a challenge? True there is no statutory right of appeal but challenges can work.

[Thongkorn]

I had a problem with the Visa office in Bangkok, i posted it on here under settlement visa, When i took my visa application in i walked to the front of the Que and said i have an appointment , a lot of Thai Visa agents who had big money Thais with them gave me the look but that did not stop me , I think some times you have to stand up and speak ,in a polite way, but firm ,I must say that one of the Staff Asked that any one who booked on line to come to the front , Then he explained in Thai what the procedure was about booking on line,

[Bukseeda]

This happens regularly we put a visit visa for a girl who had been to the UK on a 1 month visit 1 year ago returned promptly.

We supplied land document asset her previous passport with visa in it, also 2 further copies of it etc etc.

In his refusal he wrote as you are a first time visitor to the UK ???

You have no assets or ties to your host country and little contact with your boyfriend 6 months phone calls 3 x per day ???

No right of appeal so we just waste another 3900 putting it back in.

I am guessing you reiterated all of this in a supporting letter, yet they still managed to miss it.

The Thai staff asked my wife why she was putting her application in so early!!!! This was on the same day the Embassy annouced a 4-6 week turn around 90% of applications and 2 months for 100%.

I also dont understand the online appointment system, which we used. She still had to wait in a queue despite being 8 moths pregnant.

You either book an appointment and expect to get served around about that time or you turn up and take your chances. Seems like they have merged the booking an appoinment and take your chances = long wait and expectations unforfilled.

I know what you mean about the appointment thing. My missus had to cancel an important meeting with her client cos she had to wait three hours. If they had told her she'd have to wait all morning she would have made appointments accordingly.

[Brigante7]

This happens regularly we put a visit visa for a girl who had been to the UK on a 1 month visit 1 year ago returned promptly.

We supplied land document asset her previous passport with visa in it, also 2 further copies of it etc etc.

In his refusal he wrote as you are a first time visitor to the UK ???

You have no assets or ties to your host country and little contact with your boyfriend 6 months phone calls 3 x per day ???

No right of appeal so we just waste another 3900 putting it back in.

And there is the reason for refusals, money, I've said it before and I'll say it again the more they refuse the more you have to pay, it's not rocket science.

Brigante7.

[7by7]

If one has received a refusal notice which bears little or no relevance to the actual details of the applicant, then the obvious thing to do is get straight onto the visa section demanding an explanation and a correction.

Moaning about it on an internet forum will achieve nothing.

As for the suggestion that the ECOs are deliberately refusing applications that meet the criteria in order to raise funds......

Funds for whom? They're not on a commission!

[Electra]

If one has received a refusal notice which bears little or no relevance to the actual details of the applicant, then the obvious thing to do is get straight onto the visa section demanding an explanation and a correction.

Moaning about it on an internet forum will achieve nothing.

As for the suggestion that the ECOs are deliberately refusing applications that meet the criteria in order to raise funds......

Funds for whom? They're not on a commission!

There are targets and at every post an average rate of refusals as a percentage of applications prevails. The performance of individual ECOs is measured against this and thus there is pressure to maintain the statistical rate. In finely balanced cases the ECO may well refuse for no other reason than to keep his hit rate up whereas if his stats were above average and it was towards the end of his day he may well grant.

Refusing now on the grounds of an incomplete application, no matter how insignificant the omission is, has become almost mundane and actually is policy because they wish to implement a tick box system which is easier to operate and does generate increased revenue since a subsequent application is almost guaranteed.

[7by7]

There are targets and at every post an average rate of refusals as a percentage of applications prevails. The performance of individual ECOs is measured against this and thus there is pressure to maintain the statistical rate.

I used to work in the driver training industry, and a similar system was certainly in place to assess the performance of driving examiners. If an individual examiner's pass rate was significantly above or below the average then said examiner would be assessed to see if they were being too lenient or harsh and if necessary they would be retrained.

I can therefore see how such a system could work for ECOs.

However, each driving test region has it's own expected pass rate. That for London being the lowest for the obvious reason of the vastly more difficult driving conditions in London to the rest of the country.

However, the visa conditions and requirements are essentially the same worldwide, so one would expect if such a system were in place that the success rates for each embassy/consulate would be similar.

A look through the visa statistics (2008/09) shows that this is not the case.

OK, I will accept that nationals of some countries will find it easier to meet the criteria than others, but even between similar countries there are large variations.

Take for example settlement applications in Thailand compared to the Philippines, similar countries with a similar type of applicant. (See page 75 of the statistics.)

Thailand (Bangkok): Received 2775; Issued 2385; Refused 340; Issue rate 87%; Refusal rate 12%

Philippines (Manila): Received 2020; Issued 1525; Refused 470; Issue rate 76%; Refusal rate 24%

(The figures and percentages don't balance due to withdrawn applications and applications submitted in one year but decided in the next.)

If such a system were in place, then one would expect slight variations from post to post, but double the refusal rate between Bangkok and Manila?

If such a system does exist can we expect settlement visas in Thailand to suddenly become harder to get as the ECOs there are told they are being too soft; or will those in Manila be told they're being too harsh?

Refusing now on the grounds of an incomplete application, no matter how insignificant the omission is, has become almost mundane

Obviously if one's application is incomplete then one risks refusal. The immigration rules have always laid the onus on the applicant to provide the necessary information and the ECO has never been obliged to chase after missing evidence. Sometimes they will, sometimes not; depending, I feel, on the amount/quality of the missing evidence and how busy or not the visa section is.

My advice has always been; if not sure, include it. Better to provide too much than too little.

they wish to implement a tick box system which is easier to operate and does generate increased revenue since a subsequent application is almost guaranteed.

Who are 'they'? The politicians or the officials.

I know of at least one poster on TV who will welcome this, as he has argued for it many times. Personally, I am against it. Each applicant is an individual, and so should be treated as such. Also, a tick box system removes any discretion from the ECO and will result, I am convinced, in borderline cases which may currently be given the benefit of the doubt being refused.

The current level of proof is 'on the balance of probabilities' but I feel a tick box system will change this to 'beyond reasonable doubt!'

Edited September 5, 2009 by 7by7

[the scouser]

It's not really possible to compare one visa-issuing post to another as local factors tend to be quite significant, even when the two posts' work appears at face value to be of a similar nature.

For example, having been an ECO in the Philippines, it is noticeable that the Filipinos/as manifest a much more marked inclination to submit either forged or counterfeit documentation than the Thai, the consequence of which is that the ECOs in Manila will verify documentation much more rigidly than their counterparts in Thailand.

[7by7]

Which seems to reinforce my point that having an average acceptance/rejection rate for each ECO to hit is not realistic.

[Electra]

I think you have misunderstood.

Each post, because of the unique demographics influencing the process of potential migration to the UK from the country in which it operates, generates its own refusal rate. It is that rate by which the local ECO's performance is inevitably measured. Any worldwide mean average would be quite valueless not least because of the sheer disparity in refusal rates and I don't think anyone could, or would, argue against that. But, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, there is pressure upon the local ECO to maintain a strike rate commensurate with the statistical trend and if he does not his annual assessment will be noted accordingly.

You query who " they " are in relation to the introduction of a tick box system which now operates? Pretty obvious I would have thought, it is the UKBA implementing legislation in accordance with government policy for whom the relevant Minister has direct responsibility. Unfortunately, as many practitioners have learned to their cost over the past year or more, this system has developed a culture all of its own in which stupidity and obtuseness seem to be the overwhelming hallmarks.

[7by7]

But, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, there is pressure upon the local ECO to maintain a strike rate commensurate with the statistical trend and if he does not his annual assessment will be noted accordingly.

And would you care to tell us how you know this? Are you an ECO? An assessor of ECOs? Employed in some other capacity by UKBA? Something else, and if so, what?

You've ignored questions such as these many times. Going to answer this time?

There obviously is pressure on ECOs to maintain a professional performance from the Independent Monitor and other assessments of their performance, but I still doubt that "there is pressure upon the local ECO to maintain a strike rate commensurate with the statistical trend," although obviously this may play a small part in the overall assessment of an ECOs performance.

Of course I will have to change that opinion if someone who has been or still is employed in some capacity in the assessment of ECOs or indeed an ECO themselves. Scouse is an ex ECO, maybe he can confirm if such a system operated during his time.

When I was teaching driving some pupils asked if it was true that the end of a month was a bad time for a test because the examiner would have reached their quota of passes! Surely you are not advocating similar nonsense with regards to a visa application?

You query who " they " are in relation to the introduction of a tick box system which now operates?

As far as I am aware there is currently no 'tick box' system now operating. Obviously, applicants have to show that they meet the relevant criteria for the visa they have applied for, but as before there is flexibility in the system.

If you are definitely stating that a 'tick box' system does now operate, again can you tell us how you know this?

Obviously I am aware that the system and procedures in operation are determined by the Minister concerned, on advice of the relevant officials. I asked, as the vague term you originally used of "they" is meaningless.

Edited September 6, 2009 by 7by7

[Eff1n2ret]

40 - 30

New balls please!

[Electra]

I suppose it is inevitable folk would wish to draw upon some experience or other in their own lives in order to make sense of something about which they have no first hand knowledge and I wouldn't wish to fault them for it not least because their vanity inevitably will not permit any such criticism.

Best leave it there but I do agree that the Scouser's view is usually more congruent with the reality whereas yours seems to be more rooted in wishful thinking.

[7by7]

So, yet again, you make claims to having knowledge denied the rest of us, but when asked how you obtained that knowledge you revert to petty childishness.

You say that Scouse's view is "usually more congruent with the reality", which as he has worked as an ECO is bound to be true.

I believe that your view is, like mine, that of a layperson and therefore no more nor less valid than mine or any other layperson's. Unless you will finally tell us in what capacity you have been professionally employed by UKBA, or indeed any government department, I have no reason to revise that belief.

[Electra]

[teddy_bare]

If one has received a refusal notice which bears little or no relevance to the actual details of the applicant, then the obvious thing to do is get straight onto the visa section demanding an explanation and a correction.

Moaning about it on an internet forum will achieve nothing.

As for the suggestion that the ECOs are deliberately refusing applications that meet the criteria in order to raise funds......

Funds for whom? They're not on a commission!

Perhaps I didn't make it clear. The visa section does not enter into conversations with visa applicants. They will not see you, they will not take calls, they have yet to answer any of my emails. The assistant in the gold fish bowl in the visa section, simply and repeatedly said 'your appeal has been received and if you do not hear from us in (up to) 2 months, your appeal will be sent to the UK for assessment'. I repeated the urgency of the appeal many times and in a few different manners. I am quite articulate when needed, but the response was the same (brickwalling).

My moaning about it on an internet forum, was in the hope that it might be addressed and to highlight the fact that the visa section does not enter in to converstions with visa applicants. I imagine they used to and were constantly abused by individuals' who wife/gf/husband had had their applications refused. I expressed my concern about the timescales in a covering letter included in the appeal paperwork. I asked the visa section staff member on duty to convey my concern. I email several times, but received not answers. I called the embassy and asked to be put through to the visa section and was told 'they don't take calls'. My brother faxed the embassy to confirm it was his wedding we were attending.

Have I missed another method? helicoptor into the embassy, chaining oneself to the main gate?

I have written to the compliants email address I was given. Guess what, no answer.

If my moaning on an internet forum can initiate some action, or alert anyone who has control or is responsible for the visa sections action, then I have achieved something. Not that it helps me much, but it could help the next guy/girl just trying to get their loved one to the UK.

Geezs I was only wanting to take her to a wedding and meet my family, what part of that could the ECO not understand? Why would they completely change the reason for going, unless they are particularly stupid or unable to read typed text in an online application??!!

Then again, misreading is fairly common I see

[7by7]

If you are serious about taking things further, then from the UKBA

Complaints

Write to us if you wish to comment on or complain about the level of service you have received at a visa application centre.

We aim to respond to your complaint within 20 working days, in accordance with the Government service delivery standards. This period excludes working days such as national holidays and weekends. To help us achieve this please provide as much information as you can, including where possible:

the visa application centre where the application was made

the full name of the applicant

the applicant's date of birth

the type of application

the date of application

any reference number(s)

Please write to:

Visa Customer Services

Visa Services Directorate

International Group UKBA

c/o Lunar House

40 Wellesley Road

Croydon

CR9 2BY

Further action

If you are not satisfied with the service that you have received from Visa Customer Services, you can write directly to:

Head of UK Visa Customer Services

Visa Services Directorate

International Group UKBA

c/o Lunar House

40 Wellesley Road

Croydon

CR9 2BY

You can also raise your complaint with your Member of Parliament.

If you have gone through this complaints procedure and are still not satisfied, you can ask your MP to take up your case with the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration (the Ombudsman).

Please note - Complaints to the Ombudsman must be via a Member of Parliament and may only be made by someone resident in the UK at the time of the complaint or present in the UK at the time of the incident. If not resident or present in the UK, only citizens of the UK may complain about entry clearance activity abroad.

[Electra]

Frankly, from my experience you might as well complain about rain on Monday mornings. The UKBA is a machine designed to run on tram lines and will not respond to anything very much beyond what it is programmed to accept and that does not include criticism.

Complaints are useless.

There are only 3 options available. Appeal, resubmit or apply for a judicial review.

MPs are not much bothered at present for very obvious reasons.