Equality Matters?

[Bull]

Hi all,

Having been sneaking around the forum for a while now...just decided to get into the closet and register.

From what I read here...whenever any farang-thai relationship (and that applies to gay or straight) hits a rock, most of the times the "being thai thing" is blamed. Nevertheless...I see that many people in the forum get involved with partners that have little to do with them in terms of life experience.

I did not spend my childhood in an Isaan Village, riding a buffalo, helping my family grow rice, leaving school before uni and so on and so on. And I guess this would apply for most of you too.

The point I am trying to make is that for me all those differences would count more than the fact of being thai or not when thinking about getting involved with somebody.

I am in a LTR with a thai guy (thai-chinese)...he is around my age, his childhood and view of the world are similar to his. Basically we have lived a similar lifestyle and had similar thoughts and aspirations, have similar education levels,his income does not depend on me,and his social circle is pretty similar to mine back home....just we happened to be born in different parts of the world, and I guess that is what helps us overcome "cultural" differences rather smoothly. Sure there is stuff where our views are different, but they are usually related to minor things.

Since I think this is not the common pattern here, I would appreciate your comments on this. Don´t you think that age, cultural level, social class, education and life experience coun more than the fact of being thai when sharing the life with someone?

Eager to read your replies...

[PeaceBlondie]

Good points. We farang who in many cases are older, better educated, more money, etc., shouldn't expect a LTR with someone of drastically different background to be a smooth relationship. Also, we shouldn't blame the problems on the fact that Thais are Thais, or that someone came from a different background.

I'll resist the temptation to continue, "However,......"

[ProThaiExpat]

Your avatar belies this very thought provoking thread, Bull, thanks for starting it.

Generalities are suspect at best, but having said that here goes.

The thread's thesis is a good one and adhered to by most relationship gurus who usually advance the propsition that the more alike a couple can be in backgrounds, the better chance of success they will have in a LTR.

Having said that, my 35 years of partner seeking with some success, 5 years and longer, in some cases, has always concentrated on character issues as opposed to background issues.

I am an alpha male, athlete, graduate school profssional and world traveled. Always considered "good husband material" and monogamous in my orientation. A homebody and introverted.

When looking for a mate, I have ended up always chosing those 20 to 30 years younger than myself. I am definitely very physical in spirit and whether through lifelong athletic interests or a military boarding school background, tend toward a "barracks" style of living. I eat, don't particularily enjoing dinning and abhor parties of more than six.

With that background, I have found that my mate choices have always been athletes who have "small town" values. How someone loves me and treats me is more inportant than how educated he is. I have enjoyed a large income from my profession or enterprises, thus earning capacity of my partner is of little importance to me.

I have sought mates who have "time for me" and could accomodate my professional demands rather than a similar type with heavy outside demands on time and effort.

Thus a loving hombody athlete 20 years younger than myself who can love and "take care" deeply and who may be incidently cute or handsome has been my ideal and I have found him in Thailand.

The downside is there is a cultural difference, educational difference, financial difference and age difference, but I can't have what I want and follow the "recipe for success" suggested by the first posting.

My experience is that no two people are alike, regardless how common their experience is. So, expect friction and conflict in a LTR, the subject matter of the conflict will vary whether it be money, infidelity or any other common difficulty expereinced in LTRs.

I am more in the camp who believe that what the couple share in "what they want in life and in a relationship" is far more crucial in maintaining a LTR than common backgrounds. Opposites do attract, although that attraction does fly in the face of success in LTRs and creates conflict just because of the opposition.

I do consider myself very lucky to have found "my Thai love" on the first try and I have encountered very few other Thais who attract me and absolutely no desire or energy to spend another three years reaching the point of relationship bliss I now enjoy.

My lifestyle flies in the face of much of the "advice" or vitriol posted in Thaivisa on how to establish a relationship with a Thai.

I share my income with my mate. I have met briefly, in passing, but do not inter-relate with his relatives but did buy his mother a home. He is attending college, but his efforts are dilatory at best, interested in the degree rather than the education, but in that respect we are the same, I was a terrrible student.

I have not "gone native" or speak Thai as so many advise. I live in a custom "western" house with no contact with neighbors other than a falang across the street. I am jai dee and very polite and kind to Thai peopple, as I have been to all people in every country I have lived in.

In brief, I live my life as I see fit, not as others think I should, I am happier in retirement than I have been in my entire life and my Thai is a big part of making that happen and keeping it going.

Our conflicts are rare and usually about money. His poor upbringing has scarred his outlook as one could expect so money conflict can be dealt with in a predictable way and thus arises seldom. In fact, we get along so well that almost artificial conflict arises just so we can let off steam. In retirement, I we devote a great deal of ours talents and energy in making the LTR work and I think that is a big part of our success.

So in conclusion, I do think common backgrounds augur well for success in LTRs but rarely found in falang-Thai relationships that I have encountered.

[Ijustwannateach]

Heh heh heh... yeah, PB, "however..."

My guy grew up in a hovel, for lack of a better word, without electricity and water. It was his job to fill up the family's water jar every day, involving about 5 one-kilometer trips to the nearest source of clean water. I come from a lower-middle class background in suburban America, and wound up later in the intellectual subculture- quite different.

I'm learning how to relate a lot of what goes wrong between him and me to what I've learned about his background. He has a lot of suppressed anger and will try to take it out on me if I don't call him on it... I dare say he has a bit to learn about me as well, and he's trying. I'm the older one so I try to take more of the burden of being mature when we're having a bad moment.

"However..."

I don't care how poor or rich someone grew up- I think that basic decent behavior in relationships has many universal elements, and someone should not be excused from behaving decently no matter what their background. It may be that they have many things to learn, but it is still their responsibility to learn them, as quickly as possible.

In the case of troubles with my guy, there has not been one incident in which he did not *know* he was misbehaving, even by his own standards. Fortunately for both of us, he has been trying harder to meet those standards and take responsibility and apologise when he does not. I'm no angel, either, and I also do my share of apologising. That's what reassures me that he and I are in a functioning relationship.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

When one of the persons in the LTR has moved halfway across the world to immerse himself in a vastly different culture, the 'equality' factor is upset. My (younger, less educated) Vietnamese-American boyfriends had to learn English in North America, but I don't have to learn Thai in Chiang Mai (although I should learn as much as possible). Anyway, I do have to adapt myself and fit myself into Thailand.

However.....while it's not a 50/50 adaptation, the Thai partner should do his part in overcoming the language barrier. The Thai partner can't expect the farang to act like a Thai, and vice versa.

I'm planning to end my current LTR when I return from my family reunion in April. I'm not looking for another LTR. But I am going to seek one or more casual Thai partners who can speak some English and fit into my lifestyle just as I increase my communication skills and try to be a reasonable part of their life. I can't go native, and they can't be farang.

[peter991]

PTE and Steven, thank you for sharing your stories with us. I found them very moving. My LTR seems to be working out well too. My Thai partner is living with his parents in a remote village in Issan.

He has picked up a lot of Western traits from spending the last 4 years of his life in Bangkok and Pattaya and is not at all shy. His Engish is really good and we have had some long discussions about our future together.

We have had our verbal exchanges and both made compromises but I feel most important for both of us is complete honesty.

Peter

[ProThaiExpat]

peter991: "Honesty" by western standards, in my view, doesn't exist in Thailand. I haven't figured it out yet and have been working on it for now over three years with my Thai, and we are closer but then my expectations are not existent in this regard.

The first issue is face. I have noticed that most Thais "tell a story" inorder to save your face or theirs. Thus, rather than say "no" to you, they tell a story about the situation inorder to not confront you with a "no"

Thus, they will take your money and have you complete a long application process and promise an installation date for ADSL, for instance, when they fully know that your more than 5 km from a central exchange and thus not a candidate for ADSL. It isn't until the technicians come out, that you learn the truth.

Threre are many other examples, but on a personal note, I don't even ask my Thai about what he does with his money, as a story is sure to come forward. Even when money is given for a specific purpose, it moves around in bizarre ways and eventually gets there, but probably late. I was forced to keep control of all bank accounts and not look at his for this reason. By western standards this is dishonesty, sins of ommission or whatever and very unsettling to a westerner. Now I just don't expect the truth, don't ask questions about areas that really don't concern me and live in blissful ignorance in money matters, once money is released to my Thai.

My Thai's past was also shrounded in "story" and only through accident, did I find out about a six month's "gap" in story, in which he had opened, operated and failed in an internet cafe business, just before I arrived. The "story" was that he worked at a five star hotel up until we met, when in fact he left the hotel six months previous to open the internet cafe.

By my western standards, this was a significant part of his history since it was immediate past in nature and a sin of omission. Sure, I understand why he didn't want to recount his failure, but it still operates to cause me to not trust "stories" and keep all things important to me close at hand.

Perhaps I am at the extreme regarding openess and "tell all" even in the my own country, so this may not be a Thai thing after all? I do know many couples in western cultures who are not that open with each other either.

My solution in this area, money and honesty, is to release money and not follow it in any way once it gets into the hand of my Thai. Thus, rather than paying for things for my Thai, I give him an allowance and say goodbye to the money without another thought for it.

This way, I don't go crazy if he spends it all at the beginning of the month and then lives frugally for the balance of the month, which seems to be a Thai characteristic. Just go into Carrefour a few days before the end of the month and a few days after and see for yourself the difference in shopper load. Perhaps not a behaviour pattern restricted to Thailand?

It is a quality of loving to tell ones partner "what he wants to hear" and that may be part of this as well. I am shielded from day to day "family drama" in far away Issan, for which I am grateful. I won't even go near "fidelity" issues, as they seem to be there, although I couldn't swear to it due to the 'story telling" issue.

Edited March 19, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[jerry921]

This way, I don't go crazy if he spends it all at the beginning of the month and then lives frugally for the balance of the month, which seems to be a Thai characteristic.  Just go into Carrefour a few days before the end of the month and a few days after and see for yourself the difference in shopper load.  Perhaps not a behaviour pattern restricted to Thailand?

I think its a characteristic of poor people everywhere. I can't choose cause and effect between being poor and being unable to budget, but in my experience people who have never had "enough" also are unable to "save for a rainy day". And how can they? If every "rainy day" will completely wipe you out and then some, what's the point in saving? Every poor person knows that if he does manage to put aside a little then someone else in his family will have a rainy day of their own anyway. Try skipping breakfast and lunch and going to the grocery just before dinner and see how much more than usual you end up coming home with. When you're hungry it all looks good. Or if you were a woman married to an alcholic, wouldn't you want to spend as much of that paycheck on food as you could before he drinks it up?

"Poor" is a universal experience.

[Bull]

So..., for those of you in a current or previous relationship with any young professional middle-high class thai. This money issues still exist? I mean..my circle of friends are mostly thai, most of them with a university degree, living in Bangkok and I guess with salaries not below 50,000/month, some gay, some straight wether with a farang boyfriend or a thai one.

I still have not seen any of this. These guys know how much they make, save and invest, dont have buffaloes to take care of back in the provinces and dont usually going on shopping sprees over thir limits. They usually do not carry the fanciest mobile phones in the market either. Sure there are stories of business going wrong and of course the unexpected...but those issues are dealt with in a reasonable money.

I am pretty close to them and to their families and I do not thing there is a great deal of difference in their views of how to manage money and mine.

I have never been asked for money in any way, nor I know of any nasty stories about it. These people know the difference between lies and truth, and have an attitude towards other in this respect similar to farang. A lier is a lier, regardless of their skin colour or origin, and therefore should be dealt with caution. They also have their views regarding thai-farang relationships, finding them many times shocking at least...

So, any of you guys see the same pattern here...?

[PeaceBlondie]

You live in a different country than many of us do. Somewhere in central Bangkok, where Thais with a BA make over 50k/month, never tell lies, manage their money well, etc. Good for you. Are they all heart surgeons?

Different time zone or planet, maybe. My current B/F is hotel manager making no more than 6000 baht per month after 20 years in the business. He doesn't lie or cheat, so far as I know, but I've been lucky to find him. His story checks out, but there could be a 5-year gap in there that he's forgotten to tell me about.

Like others, once I give him money for household expenses or to help out his family, I don't ask for itemized receipts. If I do leave him soon, he'll get along without me, just as he did before I interrupted his life. Anyway, we'll have good memories, and probably no serious regrets. Did I always understand his situation, and vice versa? Not always, but usually.

[Ijustwannateach]

So..., for those of you in a current or previous relationship with any young professional middle-high class thai. This money issues still exist? I mean..my circle of friends are mostly thai, most of them with a university degree, living in Bangkok and I guess with salaries not below 50,000/month, some gay, some straight wether with a farang boyfriend or a thai one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, aren't you special.

One of the reasons I don't date young, upper-class professionals (which is the bracket you're talking about- the middle class earns 10-20k) is that they inevitably have families which are so "very." They look down on the lower/middle classes (off whom they are parasites), not unlike the attitude you seem to have by implication, and their families are just, really, the FINEST people- the kind who profit by loan sharking, landlording, and corruption.

but, really, I'm sure they're the FINEST types of people. All power to you, really.

"Steven"

[Bull]

They look down on the lower/middle classes (off whom they are parasites), not unlike the attitude you seem to have by implication, and their families are just, really, the FINEST people- the kind who profit by loan sharking, landlording, and corruption.

but, really, I'm sure they're the FINEST types of people. All power to you, really.

I never intended to discriminate people in any of my posts, unlike YOU have done in yours. Some thai people want to make of this country a better place, and dislike corruption and the thai class system as much as you seem to do regardless of their income (just they express it with better manners).

...then again some others profit from farang sharking, don´t they? But hey, that must be much more respectable I guess.

[Steve2UK]

I don't care how poor or rich someone grew up- I think that basic decent behavior in relationships has many universal elements, and someone should not be excused from behaving decently no matter what their background.  It may be that they have many things to learn, but it is still their responsibility to learn them, as quickly as possible.

In the case of troubles with my guy, there has not been one incident in which he did not *know* he was misbehaving, even by his own standards.  Fortunately for both of us, he has been trying harder to meet those standards and take responsibility and apologise when he does not.  I'm no angel, either, and I also do my share of apologising.  That's what reassures me that he and I are in a functioning relationship.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%. I think there are too many instances where either farang or Thai "blames" the cultural difference when one or other is just not making the effort - fair to say, almost certainly the extra effort needed because of the cultural difference.

But, as has been said, most of us are older (if not always wiser) than the Thai partner, likely more affluent and almost certainly more experienced in the ways of (different parts of) the world - else how did we find ourselves in Thailand? Plain economics makes it near-inevitable that most Thai's up to middle-class level of background just will not have had the same range of opportunity to see other country's ways of doing things. I'll say now that I don't have enough first-hand knowledge to feel qualified to comment further on Thai class structure, where the "higher" classes made their money and what graft keeps them where they are.................. so I'm staying well out of that particular tennis match.

Returning to the original post, it seems to me that Bull is maybe missing the point about what must surely come with the similar educational/material background - i.e. more exposure to Western values, habits etc.......... isn't that just a fact of Thai life? From what I've seen, most Thai who make enough money to support it seem to automatically want to buy into as much of the Western lifestyle as they can (Mercedes, smart condo/"modern" - read "Western" - house with aircon in every room, eating at farang-oriented restaurants etc). Much of the lifestyle "aspirational" advertising in the press and on TV reflects this: good enough for the farang (read "rich and sophisticated"), so definitely good for you, Mr & Mrs Thai consumer. Not to mention the suspiciously high number of Eurasian (round-eye) models you see in the ads - are they Thai or are they farang? IMHO, the ambiguity is no accident.

I'm learning how to relate a lot of what goes wrong between him and me to what I've learned about his background. He has a lot of suppressed anger and will try to take it out on me if I don't call him on it... I dare say he has a bit to learn about me as well, and he's trying. I'm the older one so I try to take more of the burden of being mature when we're having a bad moment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've detected what I think is the same in my relationship with a 29-year old Thai which has been going about a month (not long, I know). Having spent some months in Germany, he certainly knows more (first-hand) about Western living and attitudes than most Thai's and often says to me that he's not like many other Thai's. That said (and I too hate generalisations), I've sometimes found myself thinking though not saying: "Hmmm, well I think you're more Thai than you think you are". It's no secret that I've got more money and choices available to me than he does to him - although I am always trying really hard not to let those facts dominate what happens between us. I've given him a little help with some things as well as paying for anything we do that costs more than he would spend himself - always discreetly and carefully.........anything to avoid trampling on his self-respect (hai kiad) and always with the sense that I don't see this as "buying" him in any way (so, no obligation in return beyond what we generally regard as normal between friends receiving something from each other).

Yet, I'm fairly certain that I've crossed his personal line at some point. We've had some friction and misunderstandings - which I've done my level best to smooth over and occasionally confront. And there you have it. A generalisation that I think you can apply to nearly all Thai's (almost regardless of their background) is about the nexus between confronting a failure/negative and losing face - way, way more important here than anything we know in the west. As I see it, almost no amount of similarity in backgrounds will remove that factor completely - only influence the degree to which it affects the Thai partner's thoughts and feelings............ and therefore the balance of the relationship between Thai and farang. The times when I have confronted him (however gently), his normally good English gets worse, he speaks less distinctly so I can't follow what he's saying and he will switch subjects; result - the original subject of the conversation usually gets lost in confusion and frustration; as happened once, if I still try to get back to the original point, he can and will say "You think too much" and walk away. All this when a simple "sorry" would have closed the matter in seconds and all would have been hugs and smiles and kisses. But "sorry" is losing face............ that said, he has said it since. I realise better now that it takes time for his (and my) confidence to build.

Picking up on PTE's "alpha male" points a bit, I also have the impression that this is much more of an issue between two males here - i.e. that the usual straight farang man/Thai girlfriend-wife relationship is likely to be inherently less fraught; cliche - but she is much more likely to have been brought up expecting to take second place (most of the time) to her man's wants and needs. Correspondingly, the Thai boy/man has almost certainly been brought up to maintain his status - and that's almost bound to come into some degree of conflict when it encounters what's perceived to be a "senior" male (however much I try to resist seeing myself as in any way automatically "senior" just because I'm farang - but my age is there and my money is there and they both count a lot in Thailand no matter what "class" of Thai is looking at me). Again, I think it's a confidence thing.

One last point that I recall from Bull's posts - about expensive mobile 'phones. As I know from similar instances in my native London, it's often the generally poor that get themselves the most expensive/flashiest mobile. It's a relatively easy one-off status symbol and toy that works for the owner who doesn't have much else to show. Those affluent (more sophisticated?) 50k per month Thai's that he knows probably have most or all of the other goodies (car, clothes, home etc) that such an income will finance - so they don't have to depend on one item to show their worth. Here in Chiang Mai, I also know that they're an easy option to drop off at the pawnbroker shop when cash is tighter than usual - as also applies to jewellery given as a present. And, yes, I know this because I gave my friend 3k to get his beloved mobile back from the pawn shop - having first asked him if that was alright with him (excuse being that I wanted us to be able to stay in touch - face-saver for him).

[Ijustwannateach]

I never intended to discriminate people in any of my posts, unlike YOU have done in yours.  Some thai people want to make of this country a better place, and dislike corruption and the thai class system as much as you seem to do regardless of their income (just they express it with better manners).

...then again some others profit from farang sharking, don´t they? But hey, that must be much more respectable I guess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmmm.... I discriminate [against] people? Where did I do that, newbie poster? I smell a troll.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Steve,

Of course, there's a certain point where the whole "stop communicating when it means I have to change some bad behavior or admit I was wrong" just becomes a power tool on the part of the Thai guy. I tend to respond to this by throwing them out until they're ready to communicate- this works remarkably well, though I suppose there's always the risk that they might not come back if they feel truly wronged.

As far as how to solve the financial disparity between me and my partner: I don't, really. The way I look at it is: I work, he works, and we want to be together. Since he is also a student, I make a small allowance for him so he doesn't have to work the insane full-time hours and still has some time for me and for school- about 3K a month. He also benefits from the things in my apartment and I pay when we eat out or see a movie. If he ever stops working any significant length of time without a really good reason for it, I'll throw him out. There's no decent reason for someone in this society or any other to expect to live without doing some sort of useful work (which could mean childraising, homemaking, etc., of course). It's not only important for a person's economic wellbeing, but also for their personality and identity. What's the purpose in life for someone to sit on a couch at home watching TV and looking pretty? Think of the results after 10-15 years. It's not a pretty picture.

I think a lot of the problems come when a richer type mistakenly takes consequence and responsibility out of a young Thai man's life, when he is at a very impressionable age (early 20s) and should be getting an education and/or preparing for some sort of professional life. IMHO, it generally does them no favors to do so.

Sadly, this is what happens to a lot of the children of the rich in Thailand by default, unless their parents are a lot wiser than average Thai rich people typically happen to be. Especially since the educational system here has been reduced to an everybody-passes, no-consequence happyland.

"Steven"

[jerry921]

I had a relationship in the U.S. with an upperclass Thai international student. 3rd generation money, lots of it. I'm from a middle-middle-class background, child of parents raised during the depression. So I have some percent of their attitude toward money, which is that it doesn't grow on trees. Since my Thai friend's family's money literally did grow on (rubber) trees, there was sometimes some friction -- in the other direction than is being discussed here. It just bugged me when he wasted money, especially since he had not yet in his life earned a satang on his own. It didn't bother me if he wore brand name clothing, expensive watches or solid gold jewelry. What bugged me was the money going to the home shopping network for ... junk! That likely wouldn't survive being shipped back to Thailand! And was tasteless junk at that!

Eventually I visited Thailand with him and met his family and friends. I didn't get any whiff of anything the least bit corrupt about any of his extended family, except that one relative had been high up in the government bureaucracy, and that's just guilt by association. That relative was the nicest guy in the whole family. He described his career as like working ones way through a thicket of thorn bushes. But I didn't connect with or like any of his friends, and in the end I realized that I wasn't cut out to swim in his fish tank.

So to amplify my above post, I think budgeting is a skill of the middle class, world-wide. No matter what culture you're talking about, rich people don't have to budget, and poor people can't because 2+2 can't make 6 no matter how you divide it up.

Edited March 20, 2005 by jerry921

[Ijustwannateach]

[Steve2UK]

Steve,

Of course, there's a certain point where the whole "stop communicating when it means I have to change some bad behavior or admit I was wrong" just becomes a power tool on the part of the Thai guy.  I tend to respond to this by throwing them out until they're ready to communicate- this works remarkably well, though I suppose there's always the risk that they might not come back if they feel truly wronged.

As far as how to solve the financial disparity between me and my partner:  I don't, really.  The way I look at it is:  I work, he works, and we want to be together.  Since he is also a student, I make a small allowance for him so he doesn't have to work the insane full-time hours and still has some time for me and for school- about 3K a month.  He also benefits from the things in my apartment and I pay when we eat out or see a movie.  If he ever stops working any significant length of time without a really good reason for it, I'll throw him out.  There's no decent reason for someone in this society or any other to expect to live without doing some sort of useful work (which could mean childraising, homemaking, etc., of course).  It's not only important for a person's economic wellbeing, but also for their personality and identity.  What's the purpose in life for someone to sit on a couch at home watching TV and looking pretty?  Think of the results after 10-15 years.  It's not a pretty picture. 

I think a lot of the problems come when a richer type mistakenly takes consequence and responsibility out of a young Thai man's life, when he is at a very impressionable age (early 20s) and should be getting an education and/or preparing for some sort of professional life.  IMHO, it generally does them no favors to do so.

Sadly, this is what happens to a lot of the children of the rich in Thailand by default, unless their parents are a lot wiser than average Thai rich people typically happen to be.  Especially since the educational system here has been reduced to an everybody-passes, no-consequence happyland.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steven,

With you all the way on what you say

Having been raised by a single parent who brought up me and my brother by herself in the austere British 50's, I know where every penny comes from and what it's worth.

By the way, one of the things she raised me on was: "Know when and how to say please, thank you and sorry and you've cracked half of it". I wish I could say that 2 out of 3 isn't bad - but it is (i.e. not handling the sorry bit)............

Steve

[ChrisP]

My bf isn't quite up to the Budgeting yet...

BUT he does have an idea of the "value" of money...

He often tells me he thinks I shouldn't spend on something because it's "..a waste of money.." or "...it's not worth it" in his mind...

(Don't often get a Thai guy who says that...)

Btw, I love his comments about M/Boys who - he says - "...have the toilet-paper money!"

ChrisP