Pad Rally To Demand Govt Rid Disputed Territory Near Temple Of Cambodians

[hammered]

Cambodia can't treat this land as its own. One way or another, PAD or not, but they have to be convinced that unilaterally taking ownership is not going to work.

The settlement is against the diplomatic accord they signed with Thailand in 2000, so if anyone wants diplomacy to work - they have to find the way for Cambodia to follow their own promises.

But then again, I don't hold much hope for Hun Sen becoming reasonable in the near future.

Hun Sen will do whatever it takes for him or his chosen succesor to remain in power. He has already used elections, coups, and other machiavelian schemes and he is quite happy to play the ultra-nationalist card. I doubt whether he would want a real war though as Thailand is just wealthier and better equipped although I doubt he would mind a few artillery exchanges or shootings or another embassy burning that added to his image as a real macho man defender of Cambodia.

Throw Thai nationalism in there and that elements of the military wont be happy if Hun Sen raises the threat level and....... Mmm better not forget all the poltiicking in Thailand too....

Imho there will be more walking the tightrope type of diplomacy that could have nasty results plus a few games of chicken

[wayfarer108]

PREAH VIHEAR CONTROVERSY

Four square km land belongs to Cambodia : Hun Sen

"That area is Cambodian soil," Hun Sen said at a opening ceremony of the new Tourism Ministry building in Phnom Penh downtown.

"Thailand is using their own map which was drawn unilaterally to take land from Cambodia such as 4.6 km square near Preah Vihear Temple," Xinhua quoted Hun Sen as saying.

-- The Nation 2009/09/29

That's rich, considering the Cambodian version was also unilaterally drawn, in direct contravention of the 1904 agreement. ICJ ruled only on the temple so the remaining border as surveyed by the French can still be contested in the ICJ, regardless of Prince Damrong or anyone else having initially accepted it. Thailand can also refuse to accept the ICJ ruling at any time and the only recourse Cambodia has is to ask for UN intervention.

[Plus]

When Hun Sen issues threats to shoot, you can't reply with wais and smiles. Thailand can't play a generous and friendly neighbor role anymore. Imposing economic sanctions would also achieve very little, as will be stopping any other forms of govt assistance - these things will be needed as carrots and as proof of Thai sincerity.

His military threat must be responded in kind, with sticks, and he must be forced to back off and onto the carrots.

[webfact]

PREAH VIHEAR CONTROVERSY

Joint border panel to solve border dispute : Anupong

Any Cambodians trespassing into Thai soil to be treated in accordance with human rights standard : Army chief

Anupong declined to comment on news report that quoted Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen as saying that Cambodia soldiers are ordered to shoot any Thai crossing the border to the disputed area near the temple.

Hun Sen said the four square kilometres near the temple belongs to Cambodia, not a disputed land pending demacation.

The Cambodian leader also said that if Thai officials negotiating the border demarcation line present their own maps during bilateral talks, Cambodian officials 'should tear them up or walk out.'

Gen Anupong said that all the border talks would be the responsibility of the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission for the Demarcation of Land Boundararies.

He said Thailand and Cambodia had agreed earlier on the principle to use the talks to solve the problem not to use forces to end the disputes and the Thai government is still adhere to the principle.

Army chief Gen Anupong Paochinda said the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission for the Demarcation of Land Boundary would be responsible for the talks to find solution on the border disputes near Preah Vihear temple.

"The Thai government has clearly showed that it will use dialogue as the channel to end the disputes. Local military personnel are maintaining good relations with Cambodian soldiers," he said, adding that no severe measures would be used.

He ensured that if there was any trespassing by Cambodian soldiers, they would be treated in accordance with human rights standards.

Gen Anupong added that the Second Army Area had warned local residents in Thailand to take care when traveling in the disputed border areas, intrusions into Cambodian territory could happen and there are still landmines in the border zone which could endanger civilians.

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said he was verifying the news report before making any comment and affirmed that Thailand would use peaceful mean to solve the problems.

-- The Nation 2009/09/29

[hammered]

Great PR by Anupong to say treat Cambodians humanely after Hun Sen said shoot Thais.

[Yoshitaka]

The Cambodian leader also said that if Thai officials negotiating the border demarcation line present their own maps during bilateral talks, Cambodian officials 'should tear them up or walk out.'

That's the kind of man I like. Such character is not unlike Sondhi of PAD.

[clausewitz]

When Hun Sen issues threats to shoot, you can't reply with wais and smiles. Thailand can't play a generous and friendly neighbor role anymore. Imposing economic sanctions would also achieve very little, as will be stopping any other forms of govt assistance - these things will be needed as carrots and as proof of Thai sincerity.

His military threat must be responded in kind, with sticks, and he must be forced to back off and onto the carrots.

I think it's lucky thiland Abhist chose the great Kasit as his foreign minister:

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/fo...read.php?t=3711

Kasit Piromya, Thai Foreign Minister, is a long- time foreign experienced high raking official of Thailand working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs since 1968 to 2005 respectively as Thai Ambassador to some countries in European Union, USA, Moscow, Tokyo, Jakarta.

He is also one of the core supporter and leader of the People Alliance for Democracy (PAD) which led demonstration again and again for years to oust the elected- government under Thaksin Sinawatra.

Recently, during the last campaign held by PAD which was called the "Nakasaki or Hiroshima War" in order to topple the pro-Thaksin government which led to siege Thai two main airports- Donmoung and Suvannaphumi, Kasit played as one of the PAD core leaders. He actively participated in the demonstration and gave the speeches to the demonstrators.

His speeches were not only about attacking Thaksin and Thaksinists, but also about attacking Cambodian intregrity, regarding to our Preah Vihear Temple. Most importantly, his speech attacking against Hun Sen, which has been criticized and concerned by some real Thai intellectuals and politicians as well as some ordinary Thai who love respect, morality and dignity, can jeopardize his role for the foreign mission or relation.

" Kasit announced loudly that he will use Hun Sen's blood to wash his feet" during his speech given at the Suvannaphumi airport.

I think it is reliable. Personally, Kasit is one of the ultra-nationalists (PAD), the extremist group which has instigated the Preah Vihear invasion since July 2008. Such a Nazi word is not new to the Thais because it is clearly written and taught in Thai history, describing how Thais treated Cambodians especially during the 16th century by King Naresaun who claimed to use King Setha´s blood to wash his feet, too, at school in order to motivate the nationalist sentiment among Thais to feel superior to Cambodia and not to be afraid of confronting the Cambodians at any cost. And it is believed that Kasit speech aimed at reminding of this history for the same political purpose. Kasit´s speech is not published publicly in media or translated; instead he is criticized and warned for such an uneducated speech.

[mca]

He ensured that if there was any trespassing by Cambodian soldiers, they would be treated in accordance with human rights standards.

After the army's treatment of the Tak Bai protesters I'd take anything a Thai army general said regarding human rights with a large dose of what I put on my chips with vinegar.

Edited September 29, 2009 by mca

[jayboy]

When Hun Sen issues threats to shoot, you can't reply with wais and smiles. Thailand can't play a generous and friendly neighbor role anymore. Imposing economic sanctions would also achieve very little, as will be stopping any other forms of govt assistance - these things will be needed as carrots and as proof of Thai sincerity.

His military threat must be responded in kind, with sticks, and he must be forced to back off and onto the carrots.

Backing on to carrots sounds as though it could be painful.

Seriously what a load of tosh.I note Bangok Pundit quotes Thitinan from the Bangkok Post

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-to-irredentism

Money quote

"At home, the Preah Vihear imbroglio is likely to be played for domestic gains. The PAD protests in Si Sa Ket were under the nose of the 2nd Infantry Division, whose units entered service in the dispersal and suppression of the red-shirted riots in Bangkok on April 13. That these units were uninvolved in preventing the yellows to go so far, suggests the PAD can simply get away with more than their arch-nemesis. They seem to have an enigmatic entitlement about them, an aura and attitude that they can always get their way.

The political capital from the PAD's Preah Vihear wrath may also be parlayed to determine domestic outcomes. With its locomotives all revved up and ready to rumble, the PAD can now turn to its domestic preferences. It can now bring even more pressure to bear on the Abhisit government to go its way, particularly on the appointment of the new police chief, concurrently stirring a royalist-nationalist tide for its New Politics Party ahead of the next polls."

Perhaps this schoolyard nationalistic froth is just window dressing, and there's an underlying motive that Thitinan touches on.Either way it seems doomed to failure.

[hammered]

Kasit and Hun Sen deserve each other.

Kasit by the way wasnt a PAD leader. Quoting from blogs probably isnt the best idea even if it is becoming common on TV. The Thai English Language poltical blogosphere tends to be useless and/or utterly bias.

[clausewitz]

As I said with Kasit- appointed by Abhisit - as foreign minister Thailand can relax and be assured that everything will be fine:

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/...-relations.html

P: The thing is that is that it was not simply him voicing his objection which placed him in a bad light with Cambodia. It is that he went on Thai TV and personally insulted Hun Sen. Video is

. He says Hun Sen is บ้า (crazy) บ้าๆบอๆ (dotty, mentally unbalanced) and a กุ๊ย (tramp, vagrant). He also says that Hun Sen doesn't want good relations with Thailand and speculates that he is the ขี้ข้า (slave) of Thaksin or he has an evil mind (จิตใจชั่วร้าย). It should be noted he made these statements when he was the shadow Deputy PM.

[Plus]

As much as you like to talk about PAD domestic ambitions, the situation at the border demands separate attention.

Anupong gave a very diplomatic response, but it's not going to stop Hun Sen, and pretty soon people will demand action, not promises they've been fed for nearly a decade.

It was all fine and dandy, but Hun Sen really upped the ante since the listing and it is obvious that "Joint border commission" is useless as far as conflict resolution is concerned. It's good for passing the buck onto it, but you can do it only so many times.

[Plus]

He says Hun Sen is บ้า (crazy) บ้าๆบอๆ (dotty, mentally unbalanced) and a กุ๊ย (tramp, vagrant). He also says that Hun Sen doesn't want good relations with Thailand and speculates that he is the ขี้ข้า (slave) of Thaksin or he has an evil mind (จิตใจชั่วร้าย). It should be noted he made these statements when he was the shadow Deputy PM

Shame on him for stating the obvious.

[webfact]

Abhisit hits out at Hun Sen

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva Tuesday hit out at his Cambodian counterpart, Hun Sen, for saying Thai trespassers would be shot if they entered into an area along the common border disputed by the two countries.

"Whenever he gives interviews to the foreign media he always has this attitude where he wants to make headlines," Abhisit told reporters Tuesday, one day after Hun Sen made the challenging statement.

-- The Nation 2009/09/29

[webfact]

Hun Sen's temple comments 'retaliation', says PM

By The Nation

Published on September 30, 2009

Hun Sen's temple comments 'retaliation', says PM

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday hit out at his Cambodian counterpart, Hun Sen, for saying Thai trespassers would be shot if they entered into an area along the common border disputed by the two countries.

"Whenever he gives interviews to the foreign media he always has this attitude where he wants to make headlines," Abhisit told reporters yesterday, one day after Hun Sen made the challenging statement.

Hun Sen said on Monday he had ordered his troops to shoot anyone from neighbouring Thailand who crossed onto land around the 11th century Preah Vihear temple.

Hun Sen's comments came about a week after hundreds of People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) rallied near the temple area, demanding Thai troops take back the 4.6 square kilometre overlapping claimed areas near the ancient temple.

This heavily militarised area was the site of clashes that have killed seven soldiers since tensions flared last year. Abhisit suspected Hun Sen's statement was to "retaliate" for the September 19 protest.

However, the Thai prime minister maintained that Thailand is committed to finding a peaceful solution to the dispute through the joint border commission set up by the two countries.

Cambodia and Thailand have been at loggerheads over the land around Preah Vihear for decades, but tensions spilled into violence last July when leaders on both sides politicised the dispute.

Abhisit confirmed the issue was raised with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon at the UN General Assembly in New York last week.

Government deputy secretary-general, Panitan Wattanayagorn, blamed Unesco for heightening the tension by granting the temple a World Heritage status at a time when political crisis was still boiling.

"This is the nature of small countries when dealing with a bigger partner," said Panitan, comparing Cambodia's relations with Thailand to that of Venezuela to the United States.

Abhisit urged the public not to let Hun Sen's statement get the better of them.

Army chief, General Anupong Paochinda declined to comment, saying border issues should be the responsibility of the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission for the Demarcation of Land Boundaries.

He said the two countries have agreed in principle that force would not be used. Thai troops on the border, however, said Cambodian troops were laying fresh landmines along the disputed areas and close to routes where they make regular patrols.

-- The Nation 2009/09/30

[Plus]

Abhisit confirmed the issue was raised with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon at the UN General Assembly in New York last week.

Hun Sen put his foot in his mouth with his order to shoot proclamation.

[Scott]

And what was Ban Ki-moon's response?

[hammered]

Abhisit has responded well to this considering Hun Sens comments werer made in the international arena and not just a local audience. Sabre rattling may be allowable for NATO or something but isnt allowable for anyone else in international diplomacy.

It should also be noted that the recent PAD rally in SiSaket was not supported by most PAD leaders and even implicitly ignored. The PAD are more divided over this issue and what to do. Right now the PAD are more divided than the reds who have Thaksin unifying them. The PAD are also facing more pressure form previous allies. It is not only Thaksin who has been deserted by previous friends.

That the rally involved a PAD faction (Ubon based?) and didnt get wider PAD support and consdiering the military reaction to it, it is unlikely that it could be repeated on a bigger scale. However, Abhisit and the military have to watch what they say and do vis-a-vis Hun Sen as if they look weak or seem as if they are giving concessions without a return nationalism in Thailand could be heightened. Right now though the driving force to this will be Hun Sen, which means how far does he want to take it for domestic poltical reasons? Considering Thailand has a superior economy and military it is unlikely it will be pushed over the edge.

The current unstable nature of Thai p[olitcs also needs to be factored in and at any time that could take a sudden turn for the worse.

[Scott]

I am interested hammered as to your comment about things taking a turn for the worse. It seems less volatile now than in the past several months. I could be operating under an illusion, but it seems like both the reds and yellows have gone as far as they can go for now. Did you have any particular scenarios in mind, or is it just a general statement?

[webfact]

Preah Vihear Temple´s entrance closed

BANGKOK, 30 September 2009 (NNT) – The entrance to the world heritage Preah Vihear Temple on the Thai side is closed amid tight security due to border tensions.

Armed Thai military officers on Wednesday set up blockades at the fee collection office of the Prasat Khao Phra Wihan National Park, where the Preah Vihear Temple is located, in Si Sa Ket province. Security in the area has been raised and people are not allowed to enter Pha Mo E-Daeng hill adjacent to the disputed area. Despite the increasing security, Thai troops along the border have not yet been reinforced.

Meanwhile, a number of Cambodian military officers have set up a military camp 30 kilometers away from the Preah Vihear Temple.

The Thai-Cambodia border dispute has been intensified again after Cambodian PM Hun Sen threatened to shoot Thai citizens trespassing on the Cambodian soil.

-- NNT 2009/09/30

[animatic]

Scott,

a shoot everyone not Cambidian on that land is a recipe for escalation.

So worse it COULD get very quickly if several Thai soldiers get shot after

being ordered to go on the land.

[Plus]

PAD are not divided over the temple. Though Chamlong distanced himself from the rally and said there was no PAD resolution for it, later all PAD leaders expressed unified stand on the issue.

They dropped the idea of relocating squatters themselves, but they are very adamant that the govt MUST do something about it.

I haven't checked what's on ASTV these days, but I'm pretty sure they are rallying the followers around this issue, and pretty soon they will demand actions from Abhisit.

The demand is legitimate, and if they stay clear of violence, Abhisit will be forced to respond one way or another. They might even make it into their electoral platform, presenting themselves as strong and resolute and ready to stand up for the nation, comparing to sissy Abhisit who is just not cut for the job of defending the country from Cambodian encroachment.

[justanothercybertosser]

PAD are not divided over the temple.

That is true - PAD leaders may have so far kept a low key on the rally, but the coverage on ASTV was extremely supportive of the protesters. The so-called division in the PAD over the rally are pure speculation neither reflected in ASTV, nor by a negative comment of any of the main leaders.

[hammered]

PAD are not divided over the temple.

That is true - PAD leaders may have so far kept a low key on the rally, but the coverage on ASTV was extremely supportive of the protesters. The so-called division in the PAD over the rally are pure speculation neither reflected in ASTV, nor by a negative comment of any of the main leaders.

The PAD are split over virtually everything these days and are looking for things to unite over. While this issue might unite a certain segment of the PAD and even bring in some new recruits it will also lose them support of other segments previously supportive. What you will then have is the PAD further morphing again. Sonthi may get behind it but Chamlong didnt seem at ease with the rally and made quite a dismissive comment of ask the organiser. Then again Sonthi and Chamlong have different roles in the PAD.

[Plus]

While this issue might unite a certain segment of the PAD and even bring in some new recruits it will also lose them support of other segments previously supportive.

It depends on how they behave in the future. I bet no one in Thailand thought "yeah yeah, he's right, we need to bend over and smile" when Hun Sen's speech was reported yesterday.

Even staunchly anti-PAD Supalak in the Nation wrote that Hun Sen cannot be ignored in his column today, and so did Nation's editorial.

This is the kind of sentiment PAD could capitalize on, just like they capitalized on broad anti-Thaksin sentiment.

Then, of course, PAD would be blame for doing everybody else's dirty jobs, like actually removing Thaksin from the system or putting Hun Sen in line.

[EffectiveAnger]

Vietnam is the laughing third. They get away with land encroachments and increased business, while Thailand bickers over laughable 4.6 square kms.

Consider these facts:

* Hun Sen is a former Khmer Rouge leader who was installed by the Vietnamese. He remains there with the full backing and support from Vietnam.

* There are millions of illegal Vietnamese migrants living in Cambodia who take up the sport of killing Khmer, especially those who compete with them for resources (such as fish on the Tonle Sap).

* The Vietnamese have a very long history of war with Thailand.

The Khmer people don't really trust or support Hun Sen based on the facts above. They wish he would stand up to the Vietnamese, but know that certainly will never happen. Now if he can stand up to the Thais, he'll look powerful (perhaps gain some support) - or so he thinks.

Edited September 30, 2009 by EffectiveAnger