Proper Land Ownership

[glennb6]

Hi

My wife (thai) and I live in USA now, our longer term goal is to retire to Issan somewhere. She wants us to be farmers, likely in rubber trees. Crazy as that may sound it might make some sense and I'm considering. Anyways, she's been offered two separate plots in the vacinity of 20,000b/rai, one being 8 rai and other being 12 rai, both with some rubber trees planted but not at maturity yet. Of course I'd be the primary payer which is OK, except that I've been reading as much as I could find on TV about land titles.

She says Sor-por-cor (close as I can figure spelling) is the type of land title (at best known), but says in and around her village area the official way Thais buy and sell land is with the village headman and four witnesses and the money is exchanged, deal is done and it's official. I suspect the later would be the default transation. For all I know the original title if it exists could be in who knows who's name.

Wooohh! I said, while I trust her to not pitch me out on the dirt road after the purchase, suppose the original owner or kin thereof wanted to contest the land title some years after, or suppose she were to die before me - I certainly wouldn't default become the land owner in thailand - our kids (her thai kids technically) would have to be, and they're 95% falanginized at this point having spent more of their lives here and they know squat about village life. Sounds like a VERY risky situation I said to my wife.

She says that's just the way it's always been done in the village and if someone screws with someone else, that someone might just get shot in the jungle. Ok, there's a simple beauty in that but I'm not a hitman in the case things went sideways, so I'm not ready to part with any money until I get some more solid answers and advise.

So, can anyone give me a paragraph or two on a reasonably trusted means of a Thai buying and securing title to upcountry farmland that's at best been a sor-por-cor title from the seller ?

Thanks

Glennb6

[phibunmike]

Proper land title is a "chanote".

Some land, especially it seems land used for rubber planting, has not yet got any chanote. The government had a scheme in the past where they gave land to landless families; the land was not to be sold, it was for their own use, and so issuing of a chanote was delayed by, I think, 10 years, to prevent people from selling. Of course, to poor families, the land was a bonus - they could sell it immediately, at a reduced price because of the lack of proper paperwork. They did not mind selling below the land's true value because they had not paid for it anyway. I think, but may be wrong, that this is what "sor por kor" is.

Many people deal with land in this way. It is scary to a westerner, but I guess you will have to make your own judgement on what risks there are and whether they are acceptable.

Good luck,

Mike

Edit> By the way, your wife will be a farmer, you won't, as farming is a protected occupation in Thailand :-)

Edited September 18, 2009 by phibunmike

[taurus8]

Hi

My wife (thai) and I live in USA now, our longer term goal is to retire to Issan somewhere. She wants us to be farmers, likely in rubber trees. Crazy as that may sound it might make some sense and I'm considering. Anyways, she's been offered two separate plots in the vacinity of 20,000b/rai, one being 8 rai and other being 12 rai, both with some rubber trees planted but not at maturity yet. Of course I'd be the primary payer which is OK, except that I've been reading as much as I could find on TV about land titles.

She says Sor-por-cor (close as I can figure spelling) is the type of land title (at best known), but says in and around her village area the official way Thais buy and sell land is with the village headman and four witnesses and the money is exchanged, deal is done and it's official. I suspect the later would be the default transation. For all I know the original title if it exists could be in who knows who's name.

Wooohh! I said, while I trust her to not pitch me out on the dirt road after the purchase, suppose the original owner or kin thereof wanted to contest the land title some years after, or suppose she were to die before me - I certainly wouldn't default become the land owner in thailand - our kids (her thai kids technically) would have to be, and they're 95% falanginized at this point having spent more of their lives here and they know squat about village life. Sounds like a VERY risky situation I said to my wife.

She says that's just the way it's always been done in the village and if someone screws with someone else, that someone might just get shot in the jungle. Ok, there's a simple beauty in that but I'm not a hitman in the case things went sideways, so I'm not ready to part with any money until I get some more solid answers and advise.

So, can anyone give me a paragraph or two on a reasonably trusted means of a Thai buying and securing title to upcountry farmland that's at best been a sor-por-cor title from the seller ?

Thanks

Glennb6

Best thing is land lease. wife buys, you pay and then go to land office in town and get a Land lease for 30 years, renewable. That will be in your name and nobody can trow you off.Sincerely Yours,

[rgs2001uk]

Copied and pasted from a previous topic on land.

TYPES OF CERTIFICATES OF RIGHTS TO LAND

Sor Kor 1

Is a certificate issued by the relevant local authority representing entitlement of a person to possess land in accordance with the request for registration of such person.

Such certificate is not considered a certificate of ownership of the real property.

In the case of any dispute arising over the rights to the plot of land, this certificate is required to prove possession and, therefore, the person whose name appears in Sor Kor 1 certificate will be in a stronger position. Nonetheless, evidence recording the real possession is required. Since Sor Kor 1 does not represent any ownership right of real properties, it can not be mortgaged.

Nor Sor 3

Is a certificate issued by the relevant local Land Department Authority certifying the usage of land of the person entitled thereto. No aerial survey photo of the land has been taken. Therefore, there is no specific position of the land being identified.

Any real property transaction in connection with Nor Sor 3 which requires registration with the local land authority must be published for an objection to be made (if any) for a period of 30 days.

The person whose name appears as the owner of Nor Sor 3 has a right to transfer, sell, dispose of and mortgage the Land upon registration with the relevant local land department in accordance with the Land Code and other regulations, notifications and announcements relating to it. Any transaction in connection with the real property (except where the lease is not more than 3 years) must be registered with the relevant local land authority and will be shown at the back of Nor Sor 3.

Nor Sor 3 Kor

Is a certificate issued by the relevant local Land Department Authority certifying the usage of land of the person entitled thereto. An aerial survey photo of the land has been taken which makes Nor Sor 3 Kor different from Nor Sor 3. The result of having an aerial survey photo is an ability to identify the exact position of the land boundary.

The person whose name appears as the owner of Nor Sor 3 Kor has a right to transfer, sell, dispose of and mortgage the Land upon registration with the relevant local land department in accordance with the Land Code and other regulations, notifications and announcements relating to it. Any transaction in connection with the real property (except where the lease is not more than 3 years) must be registered with the relevant local land authority and will be shown at the back of Nor Sor 3 Kor.

Chanot (Title Deed)

Is a certificate of ownership of real property in which the person whose name appears as the owner has a real property right to transfer, sell, dispose of and mortgage the Land upon registration with the relevant local land department, including the lease.

Be very very careful, I can not stress this highly enough, due diligence is essential.

Dont fall for any of this help me to help you when it comes to land, trust no one.

Its not unheard of for Thais to rip off their own family members in such transactions, never mind another Thai.

I know a lady with 300 rai in Ayuthaya that is at best worthless because of the restrictions on the use of the land.

Check what restrictions are imposed and what will apply in the future.

In another area of Issan the landowners are waiting for full chanote status so they can sell land at a marked up price because it will then be fully legal.

Check everything and trust no one, if you dont understand, ask again and again until it is explained in a manner you understand.

If the seller still cant explain, seek proper legal services.

Look at it this way, 20 rai at 20,000 baht per rai equates to 400,000 baht, how much can you afford to lose that sort of money?

Also ask if this is such a profitable venture why is the land being sold?

You may end up buying someone else's problems.

You make no mention of access to the land, is it landlocked or is access freely available?

Do you actually know anything about being a rubber tree farmer?

Do you really think your kids will thank you if they end up with this as a problem in later years?

Sorry for being so negative, its the nature of the beast.

[chuckd]

We bought nearly 2 rai in my wife's village, on a paved road with all utilities, for 265K. We went the village headman route as they have not issued any chanote's in this village for years.

We subsequently built our house and then applied to the Land Office in Nong Bua Lamphu for the proper title. We have now had government surveyors come here from Bangkok. They surveyed the land and said we would be getting some sort of title in a month or two.

We can't seem to find out if we will get a chanote or Nor Sor Sam. We should know something in the near term.

I'm not worried about it. If she kicks me out, I'll go back to Pattaya where I have a chanote.

[barryofthailand]

Very risky to sink money into farm land. foreigners are not allowed any rights including leases on farm land. All I can say is let your conscious be your guide, but many people stung in Thailand, even after their wife's living in their home country for yrs.

Barry

[Prajak]

Consult a good lawyer; your embassy has a list. Consider 30+30 landlease or, may be better, usufruct.

[Patriot]

I may be wrong, but I'm not sure you can "Lease" from your wife. If you're married you are in a 50/50 situation.

[soidog2]

Hi

Wooohh! I said, while I trust her to not pitch me out on the dirt road after the purchase, suppose the original owner or kin thereof wanted to contest the land title some years after, or suppose she were to die before me - I certainly wouldn't default become the land owner in thailand - our kids (her thai kids technically) would have to be, and they're 95% falanginized at this point having spent more of their lives here and they know squat about village life. Sounds like a VERY risky situation I said to my wife.

She says that's just the way it's always been done in the village and if someone screws with someone else, that someone might just get shot in the jungle. Ok, there's a simple beauty in that but I'm not a hitman in the case things went sideways, so I'm not ready to part with any money until I get some more solid answers and advise.

As other had said :

# 1 rule , if you cannot afford to loose the entire amount, don’t buy.

Now back to the real village world, your wife is right this is how it’s done.

Most farming land will not have a “ chanote “ never the less, it’s saleable depending on how it was registered.

The key to success , is the strength of your relationship with your wife. You will have to depend on her to do the right thing.

If that works for you , and you also trust her Thai family ( you will need them to help set up ETC ) nothing to worry about.

Myself & many others farm hundreds of rais, buy & sell land without any problems;

all for many years.

Farming done properly is most rewarding, go for it !

[Prajak]

You are right, Patriot. So than usufruct is the only option. He should consult a lawyer.

[glennb6]

This is all good info and thanks all for the input. Me the falang will not be involved in trying to own the land or farming it other than paying via my wife in her name and providing advise and direction as I can find it and convey to her.

If a Sor Por Kor (that's a Sor Kor 1 right?) can eventually be converted to more legit and solid title, perhaps she could do a long term lease with options. I likely will need to get hold of a lawyer to get the true answers.

Thanks

Glennb6