"Violence Unlikely" At Today's Red-shirt Rally

[baht&sold]

Thaksin wants a violent revolution. We know that.

how do you know this ? any proof ?

didn't think so.

Urged on by phoned-in messages from Thaksin to start a 'people's revolution' on April 11, UDD protestors stormed the venue of an Asian summit that Thailand was hosting in seaside Pattaya, 100 kilometres south-east of Bangkok

Thai courts opened a case against Thaksin's family members this month that could result in their loss of 2 billion dollars in deposits at Thai banks, a key factor behind his impatience to bring about political change in the country, according to politicians still close to the ousted former premier.

Thaksin, who faces a two-year sentence in Thailand on abuse of power charges, has been living in self-imposed exile since August last year, but he remains the de-facto leader of the Puea Thai opposition party and the main financier of the UDD.

source: Asia Pacific News - Saturday Sept 19, 2009

Edited September 19, 2009 by baht&sold

[mc2]

BTW, mc2, friendly suggestion, if you wish to stick around here to push your red agenda, I would lay off the crude personal attacks.

twisting things as usual eh jingthing? no suprise there

I was warned for apparently being too pro-thaksin, not for making "crude personal attacks".

[Jingthing]

BTW, mc2, friendly suggestion, if you wish to stick around here to push your red agenda, I would lay off the crude personal attacks.

twisting things as usual eh jingthing? no suprise there

I was warned for apparently being too pro-thaksin, not for making "crude personal attacks".

Of course I don't know about your personal history and don't care. Just noticed on this thread you are getting very crude, that is all, no twist.

[mc2]

Thaksin wants a violent revolution. We know that.

how do you know this ? any proof ?

didn't think so.

Pattaya Asean conference and Black Songkran are the only "proof" reasonably rational people or governments need. I think we know any amount of proof will be inadequate for the TRUE BELIEVERS among us.

that proof of yours doesn't prove anything at all. just hot air.

whats the next piece of nonsense you will make up ? "thaksin wants to take over the world!" why? "black songkran!"

[Thai at Heart]

RED SHIRTS RALLY

Hooligans ordered to incite unrest : Suthep

Several groups of "hooligans" have received orders to create unrest during the red shirted protest on Saturday in Bangkok, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said Saturday.

Citing intelligence reports, Suthep said that the groups are from Bangkok, Nonthaburi and Nakhon Pathom provinces.

They were ordered to create violence during Saturday's anti-government United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) movement in the capital.

The protest marked the third anniversary of the coup that ousted then PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Suthep said that however the groups were under close watch.

Declining to identify the groups, Suthep called them "hooligans" and said that are notorious, but that the police are well prepared to deal with them.

He was speaking after meeting with acting national police chief Pol Gen Thani Somboonsap at Government House where tight security has been imposed by both police and army personnel.

Those guarding the area were equipped with only shields and batons, while barbed wire was installed around Government House to prevent UDD protesters from getting close to the building housing the prime minister's office.

Gen Thani told journalists briefly after a one-hour talk Suthep that the deputy prime minister ordered him to closely monitor the third-party groups which might incite violence during the rally.

-- The Nation 2009/09/19

Typical smoke and mirrors statements. How do Thai politicians learn to speak this wonderfully inexact language?

[Jingthing]

Post 97 above does a better job, OK?

No I don't think Thaksin wants to take over the world. You are getting ridiculous.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Jingthing

[mc2]

BTW, mc2, friendly suggestion, if you wish to stick around here to push your red agenda, I would lay off the crude personal attacks.

twisting things as usual eh jingthing? no suprise there

I was warned for apparently being too pro-thaksin, not for making "crude personal attacks".

Of course I don't know about your personal history and don't care. Just noticed on this thread you are getting very crude, that is all, no twist.

please jingthing, show me one post of mine on this thread, just one, where i was crude.

Edited September 19, 2009 by mc2

[mc2]

Post 97 above does a better job, OK?

yes, i read the post 97.

now, do you understand the difference between a "peoples revolution" and a "violent revolution" ?

they are different, you know.

[WAERTH]

Post 97 above does a better job, OK?

yes, i read the post 97.

now, do you understand the difference between a "peoples revolution" and a "violent revolution" ?

they are different, you know.

People's revolutions have a tendency to turn out violent. Also a people revolution would be mob rule .... very far from the democracy the "T" man claims he wants.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'm confused by the heading of this article.

Who are these Red Shirts?

Certainly an odd way of describing political movements.

I understand some of them support the previous prime Minister, but what is their political context?

A local told me that one side of this political problem wants to abolish elections and simply appoint legislators, while the other side wants to have elections.

The side that doesn't want elections....why? Is it because they cannot win them or are they merely anti-democratic?

Where do these "Red Shirts" fit in, other than the association by some of them with the previous Prime Minister? Are they the ones wanting elections or do they want to appoint legislators without elections?

Under instructions from the child bride again ? " Who are these Red Shirts " You certainly had a good idea who was who quite recently. Early onset of Altzheimers ?

'child bride' ? <deleted>

no need to make those types of accusations.

Perhaps they escape you. The one eye makes it a bit hard to grasp everything about you Squire. It is sad to see.

[livinthailandos]

last year it was the yellow, now its the reds, maybe next year it will be blue, or green, all I see are 2 sides that cannot work together on anything period. They might as well be cats & dogs doomed to hate each other forever. The political situation here is a basic merry go round, it just go round & round.

Regarding thaksin I say the longer he's out of the country the better. Frankly both sides in my opinion don't really care if they destroy thailand's image abroad or not.

This country has some beautiful sites and i know a lot of good thai people but frankly, the political situation is going to be problematic for at least another 5 years. If the red's get there way, the yellow's come back, if the yellows constantly get there way, the red's come out. The only possible solution is if the thaksin groups run out of money or steam. Frankly all this topic's and postings start to remind me just how silly this country is in so many ways.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, the two sides clearly have irreconcilable differences. How can they organize a divorce?

Edited September 19, 2009 by Jingthing

[baht&sold]

Ongoing mass anti-gov't rally in Bangkok feared to turn violent

www.chinaview.cn 2009-09-19 16:20:44 by Nuttanan Srithorn

BANGKOK, Sept. 19 (Xinhua) -- The ongoing mass anti-government rally in capital Bangkok on Saturday is feared to turn violent, amid military coup speculation, while the economic sector urges the government to ensure peace at the rally site in a bid to maintain foreign investors' confidence.

The mass rally, which is organized by the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), is aimed to topple the current coalition government.

From Friday until Tuesday (Sept. 18 to 22), the Internal Security Act (ISA) has been enforced at Dusit district in the center of capital Bangkok in a bid to ensure law and order.

On Saturday afternoon, the UDD protestors started gathering at the Royal Plaza inside Dusit district and later in the day will march to the Si Sao Thewes residence of the president of the Privy Council, General Prem Tinsulanonda.

The protest is also to mark the third anniversary of the Sept. 19, 2006 military coup, which did bring down former premier Thaksin Shinawatra from power.

And, Thaksin has been perceived as the real leader of the UDD people or the red-shirted people.

The UDD group has long accused General Prem of being behind the military coup three years ago.

Meanwhile, General Somjet Boonthanom, a former secretary-general of the now-defunct Council for National Security (CNS) was quoted by Matichon Online as saying on Thursday that "if there was no coup (on Sept.19, 2006), we would have never known how much the country would be further corrupted by Thaksin. What would be left for the country?"

The CNS was transformed from the military-led Council for Democratic Reform (CDR) that was set up after launching a successful coup on Sept. 19, 2006 to oust Thaksin.

GOVERNMENT CONCERNED OF VIOLENCE

Though the UDD core leaders said they will rally peacefully and disperse at Saturday's midnight, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said Friday the government will declare a state of emergency if the ISA law is proved inadequate to control the rally situation.

Intelligence has showed that the protestors will gather at the premises of certain state offices including military barracks and homes of important figures, acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn disclosed Thursday.

Hence, the government plans to deploy a combined police and soldier force of almost 10,000 officers to maintain law and order during the UDD rally.

Thaksin is seen to mobilize all of his men, including those in uniform, to try to topple the government, Suriyasai Katasila, secretary-general of the New Politics Party, established by the People's Alliance for Democracy, has warned, The Nation newspaper's website reported recently.

Thaksin will use his network to carry out underground operations to try to overthrow the coalition government since it is expected the number of the UDD protestors at the rally site will not be enough to depose the government, he said.

Metropolitan police estimates that about 30,000 red-shirted people will participate in the anti-government rally on Saturday.

Security agencies will also need to monitor the situation outside the rally site as Thaksin will use his network to stage a disturbance nearby the rally site so that violence could escalate until the government collapses, Suriyasai added.

"Thaksin has realized that this Saturday's rally will be his last chance to overthrow the government," he said.

If Thaksin fails, it will be harder to bring down the Democrat-led government, which might complete its four-year terms, he said.

And, Thaksin could potentially be convicted in other cases and his network could eventually disintegrate, Suriyasai added.

Suriyasai's view is backed by a comment made by Sopon Onkgara recently published in the Nation's website that "Is there any other significant aspect to this rally? Yes, political and business cronies of Thaksin face a high risk of jail terms, with three court cases -- involving government lotteries, rubber saplings and shady deals with Cambodia over land surrounding the Preah Vihear temple -- awaiting verdicts. The prospects of them going free remain quite bleak."

AMID RISING COUP RUMORS, ARMY TOP BRASSES CONTINUOUSLY DENY

The last coup occurred three years ago, on Sept. 19, and, then premier Thaksin was removed from office while he was attending the UN General Assembly.

Thaksin was accused of corruption, and kept in exile since then. In February, 2008, Thaksin returned to Thailand to face corruption charges, but he later fled into exile again and was convicted in absentia.

On last Saturday, General Chaisit Shinawatra, former supreme commander and a cousin of Thaksin, said he supported a coup if it would improve the country's situation.

General Chaisit said if one does take place, politics would have to start anew then the country's conflicts could end.

But, army commander-in-chief General Anupong Paojinda said Friday Thailand's armed forces have no thought about staging a coup since it will damage the country.

"There will be no military coup, despite all the speculation," General Anupong said.

General Apichart Penkitti, permanent secretary for defence, has echoed the army chief's statement saying that the military will not resort to another coup to settle the country's problems.

The idea of a coup is out of date, and current conditions do not warrant a coup, General Apichart said.

General Apichart said he is confident that no commander of the country's armed forces has plans for a coup when Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva attends the UN General Assembly meeting in New York next week.

"The country's political problems are being resolved by democratic means," navy chief Adm Kamthorn Phumhiran said Tuesday.

POLITICAL OBSERVERS PREDICT NO COUP

　"Will there be unpredictable consequences? It would take more than total chaos, and probably wholesale slaughter, for any attempted coup by military opportunists or half-crazed generals hoping to share the spoils from Thaksin's frozen assets, to succeed. The country has yet to fully recover from the effects of the previous coup," according to Sopon's opinion published in The Nation's website.

Senator Prasarn Marukhapithak has also expressed his confidence that no coup will happen due to the rally on Saturday, the Nation's website reported on Monday.

There will be no justification for a putsch as the government can control the rally situation and no violence will arise, the senator said.

Thaksin can not maneuver much abroad since his host countries, including the United Arab Emirates, will limit his political movements, the senator explained.

"The rally would be held just to try to extend the life of the red-shirted movement," said Senator Prasarn.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Abhisit said it is weird the coup speculation sprang up, saying that actually nobody should have talked about a coup again since they have been calling for democracy.

"Now, why has it changed into a call for a change through a coup?" the Thai prime minister said.

POLITICAL CRISIS TO DETERIORATE THAILAND'S GLOBAL COMPETITIVENESS

In a related development, Thailand's top brasses in the economic sector have warned that the country's economic development will be dampened further if the rally turns violent or will lead to another coup.

Hence, the Democrat-led government is not only expected to ensure peace at the mass rally, but also to end the domestic political crisis quickly, otherwise the country's long-term global competitiveness will be deteriorated.

In the recent World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report 2009-2010, Thailand has lost its global competitiveness, ranking number 36, the fall from the 34th place of last year.

"The country's competitiveness suffers from protracted instability. Unsurprisingly, the quality of public institutions continues to deteriorate," said the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report 2009-2010.

Thailand has already wasted its time for over three years to correct the country's political problem, said Thanit Sorat, vice chairman of the Federation of Thai Industries (FTI), Krungthep Turakij Online reported recently.

If the political problem is not solved quickly, the country's global competitiveness will be damaged further over the next four to five years, says Thanit.

"Consequently, no (new and additional) private investment will occur, which will affect the country's employment," the FTI vice chairman has warned.

The latest survey by the Asia Foundation, which conducted on 1,500 Thais in 26 provinces, discovered that some 58 percent of the respondents have believed the country is going in a wrong direction.

And, some 67 percent of the respondents feel their own economic situation has deteriorated in the past two years, the survey said.

Those views are supported by Somchai Sajjapongse, the director of the Fiscal Policy Office, who was quoted by local media Friday as warning that if the anti-government rally turns violent and is prolonged, foreign investors will delay their investment plans in Thailand, which will adversely affect the economic recovery.

Applications with the Board of Investment for investment promotions during the first eight months of 2009 totaled 250 billion baht (7.42 billion U.S. dollars), down from 280 billion (8.30 billion U.S. dollars) in the same period last year.

"To lure foreign direct investment, Thailand needs to show a clear policy in investment promotion and also communicate with foreign investors, particularly SMEs (small-and medium-sized enterprises), about what Thailand will throw its support to," said Yo Jitsujakata, president of the Japan Chamber of Commerce in Bangkok, the Bangkok Post's website reported Tuesday.

Source link

[Supernova]

I think that most people who think the gov't isn't legal are those that feel that the coup was illegal and the subsequent court verdicts concerning Thaksin were questionable.

The coup being illegal isn't a matter of feeling it's a matter of fact. It was illegal. What is a matter of feeling is who brought about the coup.

As for questionable court verdicts, i seem to recall there being some of those whilst Thaksin was in power. Where were the red-shirts then?

+1

A coup is illegal through and through, regardless of the circumstances leading up to it.

As for the court verdicts, well, let's not rush to any conclusions. While I agree there were some questionable verdicts handed out during Thaksin's reign, let's not forget that these cases were brought to court under the reigns of a democratically elected government. With Thaksin's case however, the situation was a little different. The question I ask myself repeatedly is, "since the coup is an illegal act in itself, doesn't that make the courts appointed by coup commanders unlawful too?" You don't have to answer, just something to think about in your spare time...

RED SHIRTS RALLY

Hooligans ordered to incite unrest : Suthep

Several groups of "hooligans" have received orders to create unrest during the red shirted protest on Saturday in Bangkok, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said Saturday.

Citing intelligence reports, Suthep said that the groups are from Bangkok, Nonthaburi and Nakhon Pathom provinces.

They were ordered to create violence during Saturday's anti-government United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) movement in the capital.

The protest marked the third anniversary of the coup that ousted then PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Suthep said that however the groups were under close watch.

Declining to identify the groups, Suthep called them "hooligans" and said that are notorious, but that the police are well prepared to deal with them.

He was speaking after meeting with acting national police chief Pol Gen Thani Somboonsap at Government House where tight security has been imposed by both police and army personnel.

Those guarding the area were equipped with only shields and batons, while barbed wire was installed around Government House to prevent UDD protesters from getting close to the building housing the prime minister's office.

Gen Thani told journalists briefly after a one-hour talk Suthep that the deputy prime minister ordered him to closely monitor the third-party groups which might incite violence during the rally.

-- The Nation 2009/09/19

thats a really funny article .

wasnt Suthep the one who organised the blue shirts in pattaya to fight against the red shirts ?

sounds like propaganda bs from Suthep .... "intelligence reports" .... "decining to identify the groups" .....

Uh no.

It was Newin Chidchob who organized the blues...

[h90]

I think that most people who think the gov't isn't legal are those that feel that the coup was illegal and the subsequent court verdicts concerning Thaksin were questionable.

The coup being illegal isn't a matter of feeling it's a matter of fact. It was illegal. What is a matter of feeling is who brought about the coup.

As for questionable court verdicts, i seem to recall there being some of those whilst Thaksin was in power. Where were the red-shirts then?

per definition a coup is illegal when it fails and legal if it works......learn some history.

Also this coup is legal as it is written in the constitution.

A dictatorship which writes the laws can't be illegal, because it makes itself legal by their own laws.

[Thai at Heart]

Uh no.

It was Newin Chidchob who organized the blues...

Uh, no. It was Suthep.......

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...ean+Blue+Shirts

The police spoke frankly about their problem. At that time I asked them openly if there was some way that would shift the responsibility to the politicians in power. They said no way, and I got shivers. The red shirts said they would come in several thousands. I thought of using soldiers as volunteers but there was only a small number of them. And the government asked them to use only shields. At that time the red shirts threatened to use violent methods, which I didn't think they would actually do. I was afraid of clashes so I instructed the police and the military not to use force. I didn't want the matter to be politicised, which would cause damage to the country. I consulted with MPs, the Chon Buri governor and the mayor of Pattaya, and we agreed to bring out civilians. We believed that civilians would not clash with civilians, as we were more concerned with a possible clash between security forces and protesters. The government stressed that no weapons would be used and everyone agreed.

Chon Buri's authorities told me they had blue shirts, which were part of the Interior Ministry campaign for social unity. We agreed to use the blue shirts. At night I inspected different locations and Newin Chidchob emerged. In fact there were others, such as Suwit Khunkitti. Everyone wanted the summit to go ahead without problems. We agreed to group soldiers, police and civilians and prepared vehicles with sound systems for them to counter the protesters. We wanted to buy time; we needed a little over one day before the summit would be completed.

Some people said it was Newin's plan to include the blue shirts and that caused the Pattaya Asean Summit to be cancelled.

That's a misunderstanding. The blue shirts have been distributed by the Interior Ministry all over the country. That is part of a campaign for social peace and unity. Many of the blue shirts were not distributed because people arrived late.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[TAWP]

As for the court verdicts, well, let's not rush to any conclusions. While I agree there were some questionable verdicts handed out during Thaksin's reign, let's not forget that these cases were brought to court under the reigns of a democratically elected government. With Thaksin's case however, the situation was a little different. The question I ask myself repeatedly is, "since the coup is an illegal act in itself, doesn't that make the courts appointed by coup commanders unlawful too?" You don't have to answer, just something to think about in your spare time...

Eh, no, the courts per se aren't appointed by the coup commanders and are by no letter of any law in any way illegal.

Don't try to muddle the waters.

[hansnl]

As this demonstration is widely mentioned in the press abroad, might we call this aother nail in the coffin of Thai tourism.

[Meridian007]

As this demonstration is widely mentioned in the press abroad, might we call this aother nail in the coffin of Thai tourism.

Well, to mix metaphors, that coffin set sail long ago. I don't think this is going to change anyone's mind from yesterday about Thailand unless there are deaths. I really hope that will not be the case with red, yellow, Thai, or Cambodian people. I hope the rain cools everyone down.

[Supernova]

per definition a coup is illegal when it fails and legal if it works

Also this coup is legal as it is written in the constitution.

A dictatorship which writes the laws can't be illegal, because it makes itself legal by their own laws.

Rhetorical nonsense, but an interesting way of looking at it though.

Uh, no. It was Suthep.......

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...ean+Blue+Shirts

The police spoke frankly about their problem. At that time I asked them openly if there was some way that would shift the responsibility to the politicians in power. They said no way, and I got shivers. The red shirts said they would come in several thousands. I thought of using soldiers as volunteers but there was only a small number of them. And the government asked them to use only shields. At that time the red shirts threatened to use violent methods, which I didn't think they would actually do. I was afraid of clashes so I instructed the police and the military not to use force. I didn't want the matter to be politicised, which would cause damage to the country. I consulted with MPs, the Chon Buri governor and the mayor of Pattaya, and we agreed to bring out civilians. We believed that civilians would not clash with civilians, as we were more concerned with a possible clash between security forces and protesters. The government stressed that no weapons would be used and everyone agreed.

Chon Buri's authorities told me they had blue shirts, which were part of the Interior Ministry campaign for social unity. We agreed to use the blue shirts. At night I inspected different locations and Newin Chidchob emerged. In fact there were others, such as Suwit Khunkitti. Everyone wanted the summit to go ahead without problems. We agreed to group soldiers, police and civilians and prepared vehicles with sound systems for them to counter the protesters. We wanted to buy time; we needed a little over one day before the summit would be completed.

Some people said it was Newin's plan to include the blue shirts and that caused the Pattaya Asean Summit to be cancelled.

That's a misunderstanding. The blue shirts have been distributed by the Interior Ministry all over the country. That is part of a campaign for social peace and unity. Many of the blue shirts were not distributed because people arrived late.

I always knew the Ministry of Interior was in on it, but rarely heard Suthep's name each and everytime the blues were talked about. Like most, I tend to associate the blues with Newin. Thanks for the correction nevertheless.

As for the court verdicts, well, let's not rush to any conclusions. While I agree there were some questionable verdicts handed out during Thaksin's reign, let's not forget that these cases were brought to court under the reigns of a democratically elected government. With Thaksin's case however, the situation was a little different. The question I ask myself repeatedly is, "since the coup is an illegal act in itself, doesn't that make the courts appointed by coup commanders unlawful too?" You don't have to answer, just something to think about in your spare time...

Eh, no, the courts per se aren't appointed by the coup commanders and are by no letter of any law in any way illegal.

Don't try to muddle the waters.

I'm not trying to 'muddle the waters' at all, it's just the way I see it. So by whom are the courts appointed? Please enlighten me so I can stop losing sleep over this.

Enough politics for the day, time to watch some EPL football. LATER.

[rixalex]

per definition a coup is illegal when it fails and legal if it works......learn some history.

If i promise to learn some history, could you have a go at learning how to tone down the condescension?

OK, let me be more specific. At the time of a coup occuring, it is illegal. Fact.

[rixalex]

A coup is illegal through and through, regardless of the circumstances leading up to it.

Wasn't arguing that it wasn't illegal. Was arguing who was responsible for it.

[animatic]

A coup is illegal through and through, regardless of the circumstances leading up to it.

Wasn't arguing that it wasn't illegal. Was arguing who was responsible for it.

The one thing in this slagging match being missed is:

This Is Thailand...

if all things illegal were stopped, NOTHING would be happening here.

~Functioning 100% legally is the EXCEPTION HERE.....

We can vainly attempt to view Thailand in assorted flavors of Western juxtaposition,

and we will ALWAYS come up wanting. WE can not succeed in our expectations of

trying to remake Thailand into anything but it's odd ball self.

No other nation comes close to Thailand in holding the world record for Coup de etats.

Wars, revolutions, and coups are judged historically by the successful transitions afterwards.

And by the winners writing the books and being proved right in improving things,

albeit starting out the hard way. Thailand resets it's clock more often than most countries by far.

It seems to be 'just the way they do it.'

So whine all you want if you side is not top dog at the moment,

that is most likely because that side screwed up too much while 'in power',

so the clock was reset yet again.

Re-couping after a constitutional vote and with a fully PUBLIC elected assembly of MPs

and a governing PM and cabinet elected by those SAME MPs,

is every bit as illegal as the original one.

AND if it takes more violence to do it, THAT should categorically be ruled out.

Pissing an moaning because your side is side lined, accomplishes nothing,

especially when that side screwed up enough to warrant removal to begin with.

[webfact]

Thaksin to make video link to address protesters at 8:30 pm

Natthawut Saikua, a red-shirt leader, said former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra will make a video link to address the protesters at the Royal Plaza at 8:30 pm.

He said after listening to Thaksin's speech, the protesters will march to residence of Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda.

-- The Nation 2009/09/19

[Scott]

Anamatic it grieves me to have to completely agree with your post!

Now, to see what happens after the phone call. (Nothing worse than waiting for a phone call that never comes).

[webfact]

I have a wish... let it rain!....

[animatic]

I guess I give good grief, or so says my ex-wife anyway.

She was never very moderating one way or another....

[jayboy]

Dre's post is most welcomed. I don't completely agree with his position, but the history speaks for itself. Times were different then. We now live in a different world and the country needs to move in a direction where the people in power are a lot 'cleaner' than they were then. People are better educated and financially better off than they were then. We have TV, we have the internet. Thais need to have access to information on their politicians who need to 'serve' the public, not the other way around.

I don't really agree.Dre's post is just old timer bar talk.You can go to Washington Square and listen to the oldsters rabbit on in this way for hours if you have a high boredom threshold.I've no problem with people saying what they like but this is historically inaccurate and intellectually incoherent.Where I do agree is that Prem in the early 1980's served the country with distinction and honour, respecting traditional values but also the country's nascent democratic ideals..Whether he has maintained those standards in the last few years is a matter on which I could not possibly comment.

[Sunderland]

Has Thaksin finished complaining about living in the middle of a sand dune and having to survive on dates, goat's yoghurt and kebabs, yet???

[Scott]

Never mind jayboy, nobody's been agreeing with me today. I don't have time to go around Washington Square--ThaiVisa is just too exciting!

I do know that I find it hard to be critical of Prem. Since I've been here, I've mostly heard people speak of him with a very high regard, and some of these are people and situations in which it wasn't just lip service. His past record is quite impressive.

Like you, I can't really comment on his current role, if any.