Testing, Retesting, Cheating And No Fail

[Scott]

The topic of testing and retesting of students as well as cheating comes up quite often. Here's the place to discuss it. I'll start.

Where Iwork, students will pass with a 50%. If they don't, they will be given a retest and then generally (I assume) will be passed. We have fewer problems in the English portion of the program, so I am not sure what the Thai side does exactly.

Students who get caught cheating are given a "0"on the exam. The exam is 50% of their grade. They will be given credit for the work done during the term, but unless they go into the exam with 100%, they fail. A letter is sent home to parents explaining the zero, the reasons and a request that they discuss the need for integrity in the student's work.

If they simply fail the exam, they are given a retest or I give the teachers the option of giving them 50% on the test. It's up to the teacher. Some do and some don't.

Some things I don't like, some I don't mind. What's your thoughts, policies and experience in this matter.

[Scott]

Might want to give some information about your school and grades you teach. I think it makes a lot of difference if it is KG, grade school, high school or University level. Also if it is a Thai program, bilingual or international program.

[BruceMangosteen]

The semester break, as well as the end of year (March), are directly tied to the completion of the final exams and the reporting of the grades.

At my school, a Government High School, most of the foreign teachers would rather get on their break/vacation instead of dealing with the situation of a failing/low score group of students, and therefore, give scores which allow same. This reads as if they lack any integrity but in reality, the Thai staff and administration doesn't seem to consider it unprofessional conduct etc.. If anything, they are looked upon with higher regard than the teacher who does it "right" or justly.

So it becomes a complete disarray of various scores for the same student and naturally the teacher who gave the low/failing marks is blamed as I mentioned elsewhere.

That leaves you with a choice, a difficult one. Take your job seriously and consider it a joke.

[BruceMangosteen]

Students who get caught cheating are given a "0"on the exam. The exam is 50% of their grade. They will be given credit for the work done during the term, but unless they go into the exam with 100%, they fail. A letter is sent home to parents explaining the zero, the reasons and a request that they discuss the need for integrity in the student's work.

My understanding is that at the Matayom level of high school, if they get a "zero" they are not allowed to go on to the next level. Is that the policy at your school? This puts the foreign teacher in a very bad position and some Thai people actually are offended by the action or even the though of it, by a foreigner. In addition, a friend told me that at one of the "seminars" conducted by the M.of Ed. they were told in no uncertain terms that foreigners could not fail Thai students. Any truth in that?

[Scott]

You make some excellent points. We do fail students who cheat--but that's about it. The kicker is that they can't fail for the semester. Thus the gade for the mid-semester and the semster needs to be above 50%. I spoke with one of our admin people and this was sort of the information I got.

In my years dealing with this, an extremely high % of the cheaters are girls and very good students. The lower functioning students don't usually bother to cheat. So far, knock on wood, I've not been confronted with a student who would actually 'flunk' the course.

In a passing conversation with the principal, she alluded to the fact that if a student failed a subject (for the year), they would have to repeat all the subjects for the year. I didn't pursue the conversation, but I thought that was rather interesting and would explain a lot.

[BruceMangosteen]

You make some excellent points. We do fail students who cheat--but that's about it. The kicker is that they can't fail for the semester. Thus the gade for the mid-semester and the semster needs to be above 50%. I spoke with one of our admin people and this was sort of the information I got.

I'm confused now. I thought you had said you failed them as the exam was 50percent and they get a zero etc.. But I understand the difficulty and reluctance to be clear and concise as this is a public setting...

In my years dealing with this, an extremely high % of the cheaters are girls and very good students. The lower functioning students don't usually bother to cheat. So far, knock on wood, I've not been confronted with a student who would actually 'flunk' the course.

The catching of them is a gray area. Some exams are structured in a way which almost encourages cheating. Never mind. I would be hesitant to again accuse a Thai of this. I've also had a student completely distraught and in tears because she was accused by a Thai teacher administering my final and her paper taken and marked with red ink. She came to me to say she wasn't cheating on my test.

In a passing conversation with the principal, she alluded to the fact that if a student failed a subject (for the year), they would have to repeat all the subjects for the year. I didn't pursue the conversation, but I thought that was rather interesting and would explain a lot.

Yes, and as indicated, we the foreigner don't want to be alone in causing this.

Edited September 26, 2009 by BruceMangosteen

[Scott]

Sorry for being confusing. We give them a zero on the exam--for cheating. They get the score they received up to that point, divided by two. So if they had earned 80% in their daily work or in interim tests their score for the term would be 40%. They do not get a zero for the entire term, just for the exam. They are not allowed to re-sit the exam.

Since the students who usually cheat are the better students, we haven't been confronted with someone actually failing a course for the year. Well, we have, but it was a couple of boys who were in grade 9 and failed the national test and were not allowed to go on to G. 10. That was some years ago, and I don't remember what actually went on their report card. Those two actually exchanged tests somewhere in the middle of the exam and between them the two of them couldn't even get 25% correct.

We have managed to bring cheating, which was endemic some years back to a resonable level. About 10 years ago we had 28 out of 35 students caught cheating in one class. For the final semester exam this year we had 4 out of about 500. Everyone knows when someone is caught cheating. The test is taken away and they are sent out of the room to sit in the corridor.

Our students are seated so they are sitting next to students from other grades, so looking over the shoulder won't help them. I don't want to get into a problem where they say they weren't cheating. Students who are caught have answers written on pieces of paper etc. This is stapled to the exam so that if parents come in (and they do) we can show them the evidence.

I had a mother come in and plead for her daughter. They both said she wasn't cheating. Showed her the test and the paper with answers. Still got a lot of excuses. I told them both that my goal was for her daughter to learn some honesty and integrity.

[BruceMangosteen]

Sorry for being confusing. We give them a zero on the exam--for cheating. They get the score they received up to that point, divided by two. So if they had earned 80% in their daily work or in interim tests their score for the term would be 40%. They do not get a zero for the entire term, just for the exam. They are not allowed to re-sit the exam.

In our M.4-6, a grade is given for each semester.

The scale is:

0-49 percent, 0.0

50-54 , 1.0

55-59, 1.5

60-64, 2.0

65-69, 2.5

70-74, 3.0

75-79, 3.5

80 plus, 4.0

The M.1-3 is also 100points per semester, but the total of 200 divided by 2 = equal final grade percent. (year) The final exam isn't 50percent, but no need in complete detail.

This was my context. 40percent would be a "0.0" if a grade were required mid school year.

[markg]

Cut to the chase.

They can be retested til Kingdom come and still won't pass. So what's the point in wasting YOUR time doing that. It's an exercise in futility.

Our students have to get 50% overall to get a grade of one, same as the post above.

I cut to the chase by making sure my continuous assessment grades throughout the semester, ensure that no student ever gets less than 50 percent.

I tell the students that if they got a final grade of 1 then really they have failed.

I make sure that students who really try, but are just poor at studying, will get a grade of at least 1.5.

Our school don't hold kids back if they fail, so what is the point in me wasting my break time retesting a student in a test that is clearly above their ability level?

[jasreeve17]

I work at a couple of universities.

Students earning less than 50% fail the module. Some modules are required to gain their degree, and for some of these I'm the sole teacher of that module - if they keep failing then they never graduate.

The Thai teachers fully support me, and are tougher than I am on grading and failing out students.

I'll work very hard with each and every student to pass them (we all do), but if they don't come to class, don't hand in assignments and fail tests then they aren't helping themselves; they fail. I had one student who failed my class three times before she started to show up, do some work and eventually passed the course. The same student was failing courses left right and centre and eventually got failed out of the university...

[BruceMangosteen]

Cut to the chase.

They can be retested til Kingdom come and still won't pass. So what's the point in wasting YOUR time doing that. It's an exercise in futility.

Our students have to get 50% overall to get a grade of one, same as the post above.

I cut to the chase by making sure my continuous assessment grades throughout the semester, ensure that no student ever gets less than 50 percent.

I tell the students that if they got a final grade of 1 then really they have failed.

I make sure that students who really try, but are just poor at studying, will get a grade of at least 1.5.

Our school don't hold kids back if they fail, so what is the point in me wasting my break time retesting a student in a test that is clearly above their ability level?

It seems you are applying a "western" mentality to decisions made by Thai people. Perhaps you should consider the "culture course". Just kidding mate. Enjoy your holiday while I'm there retesting and giving extra assignments to get them up to a passing grade...

[007]

At my school (government school) I was asked to "up" the scores by several points, so that all students had a good grade for the term.

Another experience at a branch of an international language school (three-letter acronym made up of two letters): all students passed the exam, even though they were way below the pass mark of 60 (e.g 12/100). It wasn't enough that 28 out of 30 students passed the exam, but it had to be all of them.

No matter what kind of school, it's often enough a farce. That's my experience, having worked in different educational environments in Thailand. What I think? Well, if you want to keep your job, more often than not, there's no other way than complying with this nonsense. Sad, but true.

Edited September 30, 2009 by 7

[Scott]

I leave it up to the teacher if they want to retest. If they don't, then just give them the 50%. Some teachers don't mind retesting and a few do it to make the point that they must take the class seriously. Students do have to come in during their holiday, so it's a big hassle.

The problem of grades is endemic in the educational system and there is very little than we can do about it. It's a case of TIT.

[Firelily]

If a student fails a test on Monday, what are the chances that they are appropriately prepared and significantly improve by, say, Wednesday? I would be strongly in favour of retesting if it took place at the end of the term break, on the first day of second term. I am a very conscientious teacher and work hard, but I would not sacrifice a single minute of my holiday to retest someone just for the sake of a farce.

[Scott]

My sentiments exactly Firelily. They sometimes have the students take the test the very next day. They call them in the morning to come in. At a minimum, regardless of the number of days, the students aren't given enough notice to prepare themselves.

[Ijustwannateach]

The effective result of this policy- as per the situation Firelily outlines- is that very few students are ever failed, even under the contingent plan of re-teaching and re-testing, because it punishes the teacher who does so. The pragmatic response is for such students to get the minimum possible grade, which becomes a defacto fail with a new, inflated grade floor.

In a system where no one can fail, it is becomes much more difficult for anyone really to pass.

[BruceMangosteen]

If a student fails a test on Monday, what are the chances that they are appropriately prepared and significantly improve by, say, Wednesday? I would be strongly in favour of retesting if it took place at the end of the term break, on the first day of second term. I am a very conscientious teacher and work hard, but I would not sacrifice a single minute of my holiday to retest someone just for the sake of a farce.

because it punishes the teacher who does so.

As mentioned earlier, this "time" isn't really your holiday in our working example. (not yours specifically) Generally speaking, at Government schools teachers are on duty and "working" thru the first week of October. Some schools even make the foreigner sign in daily.

[Ijustwannateach]

However, it is my understanding that the requirement for reteaching and retesting has no (reasonable) time limit. I have even seen especially recalcitrant students requested to keep coming into the new school year, to their old teacher after classes, when that teacher was especially stubborn. They eventually gave up and dropped out (which might have been her point, but it cost her to make it).

[BruceMangosteen]

However, it is my understanding that the requirement for reteaching and retesting has no (reasonable) time limit. I have even seen especially recalcitrant students requested to keep coming into the new school year, to their old teacher after classes, when that teacher was especially stubborn. They eventually gave up and dropped out (which might have been her point, but it cost her to make it).

I would never fail a student, at the high school level, who gives it his/her best or in fact, "any" effort. I think we are mixing thing up. This failing and retesting generally would only apply to those who did absolutely nothing and skipped a lot of classes.

[Ijustwannateach]

(I'm not sure whom you mean by 'we,' as the teacher in my anecdote was Thai... but I believe the students involved were exactly the type you just mentioned- do-nothings who skipped all classes.)

I'm not a big fan of the whole 'graded' system anyway- and if you flatten the grades out into meaninglessly small margins by squeezing from the bottom and filling in points from the top (as many Thai schools are now doing), it's just a silly pretend exercise in statistics that should be done away with, IMHO.

The problem is that eventually the students DO reach real-world tests- external, international tests, or in Thailand, company-oriented skills tests (the companies have to have them, say my executive officer friends, because grades and degrees have been rendered largely meaningless by the effects of the very policies we are discussing- they are relatively recent, actually). It hardly does a service to the students to let them feel they can get by on any kind of performance at all for 12 years, only to have them discover at that late date that skills and knowledge do make a real difference in the real world.

[toptuan]

At our government university and a local vocational college, a "no-fail" policy automatically kicks in when the parents are loaded. Often done behind the teacher's or department head's back. The grades just get "mysteriously" changed in the schools' computerized systems. A student you know you've failed multiple times in multiple classes just somehow keeps moving on with their classmates to higher levels. Consequently, in our English major program, we graduate Bachelor's degree students who can't put an oral sentence together. They usually end up as a worker or salesperson in mom and dad's big factory or gold shop, never to speak English again.

All this might possibly have something to do with the fact we are at number 2,575 on the worldwide ranking list of universities.

Corruption has its price.

Edited October 1, 2009 by toptuan

[BruceMangosteen]

The problem is that eventually the students DO reach real-world tests- external, international tests, or in Thailand, company-oriented skills tests (the companies have to have them, say my executive officer friends, because grades and degrees have been rendered largely meaningless by the effects of the very policies we are discussing- they are relatively recent, actually).

It may be my imagination, but I recall several of the "top" Universities also having their own tests for admission. Chaing Mai University comes to mind as well as one of the famous ones in Bangkok. But I could be dreaming. I don't know if they are a general admission requirement. Could have been for a scholarship or something like that. I know there is a standard college admission test. Your point is well made but I would assume money can also get someone in to a good University despite his/her high school "grades" and test results.

[BruceMangosteen]

All this might possibly have something to do with the fact we are at number 2,575 on the worldwide ranking list of universities.

I wasn't sure if you were joking, so did a quick search. There are 17,000 universities in this particular sample so 2,575th doesn't seem bad at all. Are you serious mate?

http://www.webometrics.info/

[mizzi39]

I just submitted my grades 10 minutes ago. I teach M1-3. Our EP does not have a no fail policy per say and retesting is up to the individual teacher. Cheating is an automatic zero.

Since most EP's are businesses, even if a student is failing he/she may receive a "passing" grade. I submit my completed assessment to my director (boss) electronically. I never alter grades, so the students final grade is what was earned throughout the term. If she (director) chooses to make minor "alterations" then that is her choice. Whether it is right or wrong I certainly do not lose any sleep over it. TIT!

[mizzi39]

Cut to the chase.

They can be retested til Kingdom come and still won't pass. So what's the point in wasting YOUR time doing that. It's an exercise in futility.

Our students have to get 50% overall to get a grade of one, same as the post above.

I cut to the chase by making sure my continuous assessment grades throughout the semester, ensure that no student ever gets less than 50 percent.

I tell the students that if they got a final grade of 1 then really they have failed.

I make sure that students who really try, but are just poor at studying, will get a grade of at least 1.5.

Our school don't hold kids back if they fail, so what is the point in me wasting my break time retesting a student in a test that is clearly above their ability level?

Totally agree, and this is not even being negative but a total reality in the Thai school system. The MOE may have their policy when it comes to fail or no fail, but no one in the "system" seems to practice what they preach. When it comes down to pass or fail It all comes down to who you are and how much you are paying.

[jasreeve17]

The problem is that eventually the students DO reach real-world tests- external, international tests, or in Thailand, company-oriented skills tests (the companies have to have them, say my executive officer friends, because grades and degrees have been rendered largely meaningless by the effects of the very policies we are discussing- they are relatively recent, actually).

It may be my imagination, but I recall several of the "top" Universities also having their own tests for admission. Chaing Mai University comes to mind as well as one of the famous ones in Bangkok. But I could be dreaming. I don't know if they are a general admission requirement. Could have been for a scholarship or something like that. I know there is a standard college admission test. Your point is well made but I would assume money can also get someone in to a good University despite his/her high school "grades" and test results.

The two universities I work at (government) have individual interviews too - which many students don't pass.

I know, for example, at Chula on the international programs you have to pass the SAT test which is very difficult for Thai students (it's an American culture test as much as an English test...). The Thammasart tests are notoriously tough for English courses - TUGET, or something similar; Chula have the CUTEP (or something similar?) which is an easier test, but if you don't pass it then you're not allowed entrance.

Toptuan is a good poster, so I fully believe what he says, and it's possible that the same situation happens behind my back. I'm sure that my head of department wouldn't support it, but once the grades enter that insane admin department...

Edited October 3, 2009 by jasreeve17

[elkangorito]

At our government university and a local vocational college, a "no-fail" policy automatically kicks in when the parents are loaded. Often done behind the teacher's or department head's back. The grades just get "mysteriously" changed in the schools' computerized systems. A student you know you've failed multiple times in multiple classes just somehow keeps moving on with their classmates to higher levels. Consequently, in our English major program, we graduate Bachelor's degree students who can't put an oral sentence together. They usually end up as a worker or salesperson in mom and dad's big factory or gold shop, never to speak English again.

All this might possibly have something to do with the fact we are at number 2,575 on the worldwide ranking list of universities.

Corruption has its price.

"Vocational Guidance" doesn't exist in Thailand.

I work at a technical college (Electrical, Plastic Moulding, Welding, IT, Building & Construction, Automotive repairs etc). Many of my students are doing something simply for the sake of doing it. In other words, they have no idea why they are doing the course that they are doing.

As an example, one very good English student (Plastic Moulding), ended up enrolling in an Arts Degree at a university. This person wasted 5 years learning about Plastic Moulding.

I know many students who plan to do something entirely different at university, compared to what they have spent 5 years learning at college. This is simply a total waste of resources.

Thank "something" that this "no fail" policy seems to be slowly diminishing.

To me, many of these problems relate to the "don't ask the 'why' question" scenario. If students (& their parents) were encouraged or allowed to question things (a cultural "no no"), it may lead to them questioning their own future, instead of "following orders". It may also lead to reduced corruption.

The blind following of cultural indoctrination is at fault here.

Also, when the amazing MOE decide to place students of similar ability in the same class, it will help many things. As of this moment, the "grade" disparity in any of my classes is bloody amazing...to say the least.

I refuse to re-test any students. I'm simply sick of my holidays being interrupted by the incompetence of the MOE &/or others...for whatever reason. We all need holidays, including the students. Where else in the world do you see schools open during "holidays"? Certainly not in Australia. During the holidays, Australian schools are locked up.

[Scott]

I think that what we see here is a pattern in which it is the teacher who is made to suffer for the failings of the students.

When I look at the number of students who manage to fail tests which, by design are easily passable, and that many of them also take extra tuition after school and on Sat. and Sun, some thing is quite seriously wrong.

[BruceMangosteen]

I think that what we see here is a pattern in which it is the teacher who is made to suffer for the failings of the students.

When I look at the number of students who manage to fail tests which, by design are easily passable, and that many of them also take extra tuition after school and on Sat. and Sun, some thing is quite seriously wrong.

Have to disagree. As far as my experiences and investigations, casual inquiries etc. have gone and revealed, it isn't ever the ones who do the after school and weekend stuff who fail or get low scores. It remains directly related to skipping and not participating in class when they are there. These few are not in the after school and weekend stuff. But my sample is only my school and small.

[Scott]

I am talking about high school level and skipping isn't an option. Absences are taken very seriously. We had a student who was absent too many times without what they considered a good excuse. He was required to re-sit all his exams, both foreign and Thai exams--even though he had passed all of them. He had to come in for four days on his holiday to retake the exams.

Again, this was a greater burden on the teachers than on him. His grades were already done and scores entered, so it was nothing but a futile effort. If they wanted to punish him, then have him come in and sit around all day.