'red October'- Red Shirts Plan Major Rallies

[justanothercybertosser]

All three of these good ladies have more balls and moral courage and ethics than most of the men presently serving in the Thai government.

They are not afraid to speak the truth and seek out corruption.

Perhaps if the country was governed by this type of character it would make more progress.

To lead a government one needs a bit more than "this type of character". And two out of the three may not always have lived up to their reputation...

[Thai at Heart]

All three of these good ladies have more balls and moral courage and ethics than most of the men presently serving in the Thai government.

They are not afraid to speak the truth and seek out corruption.

Perhaps if the country was governed by this type of character it would make more progress.

To lead a government one needs a bit more than "this type of character". And two out of the three may not always have lived up to their reputation...

Apart from the fact that she is a celebrity forensic scientist, what exactly is Porntip famous for other than having a very bad hairdresser? I see her on TV a lot, I see her in the newspapers a lot. Has anything she has done had any "real" influence on the outcome of any cases in Thailand? I am not suggesting that she isn't a nice person, somewhat good at what she does, but....

Lots of accusations, but with zero results.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...word=The+People

[justanothercybertosser]

You make some good points but people like Plus will never see anything other than their own views. Thailand will change eventually. His point about democratic people not having influence is nonsensical. They mattered then and they matter now. But TIT. It will take time and will be evolutionary.

Thank you.

These posters are propagandists and ideologues, the finer complexities of Thai politics, history and society are lost on them. Anyone that threatens their ideological framework with reasonable arguments is not a partner in a dialogue, but working for "the enemy". It is amazing to what extend some foreigners here personally identify with this conflict, as if their whole identity is threatened.

Weird, though fascinating.

[justanothercybertosser]

Apart from the fact that she is a celebrity forensic scientist, what exactly is Porntip famous for other than having a very bad hairdresser? I see her on TV a lot, I see her in the newspapers a lot. Has anything she has done had any "real" influence on the outcome of any cases in Thailand? I am not suggesting that she isn't a nice person, somewhat good at what she does, but....

Lots of accusations, but with zero results.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...word=The+People

Exactly.

She is an internationally recognized forensic scientist. She has unfortunately also meddled in things she was/is not qualified for, allowed herself to have been made a symbol of vested interests, has made many enemies by her inability to compromise (and not all of them are corrupt police officers, but also some very sensible people).

She is no doubt a very interesting and fascinating person. But she is not a politician.

[Plus]

These posters are propagandists and ideologues, the finer complexities of Thai politics, history and society are lost on them. Anyone that threatens their ideological framework with reasonable arguments is not a partner in a dialogue, but working for "the enemy".

The real problem with red ideologists is not that they are working for the enemy, it's that they are a complete and utter failure. They, pretty much like Thaksin himself, had a chance to introduce something really fresh and inspiring into Thai political scene, and they failed.

What did reds give us to think about? Thaksin pardon?

Now Chavalit has taken the helm of their political party. How progressive....

[justanothercybertosser]

The real problem with red ideologists is not that they are working for the enemy, it's that they are a complete and utter failure. They, pretty much like Thaksin himself, had a chance to introduce something really fresh and inspiring into Thai political scene, and they failed.

Actually - they did introduce some very fresh and novel concepts into the Thai political scene. To name just one - attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so. Questioning authority figures that operate in the opaqueness is quite inspiring, fresh and long overdue. Given their mass support - they have been everything else than a failure, in this aspect.

[Rumfoord]

Exactly.

She is an internationally recognized forensic scientist. She has unfortunately also meddled in things she was/is not qualified for, allowed herself to have been made a symbol of vested interests, has made many enemies by her inability to compromise (and not all of them are corrupt police officers, but also some very sensible people).

She is no doubt a very interesting and fascinating person. But she is not a politician.

is she that? an internationally recognized forensic scientist? with the emphasis on scientist how is her scientific reputation amongst academic peers? on the natinal level and on the international level?

she got promoted and aided by the Thaksin government, who entrusted her with high profile cases.

she is a media darling, she is popular in the local, english and the foreign press, thats right, on the society pages and featured in glossy mags with the emphasis on her haircut and that she is a woman. that is allways a good story. yes, kudos to her to speak up against corruption in the police force. that she have in common with other local heros like Sae Daeng for example.

agree: no doubt a very interesting and fascinating person. But she is not a politician.

[Plus]

..attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so

Who cares?

It's not like Abhisit sits in a waiting line at Prem's residence everyday, waiting for instructions.

Chavalit went to Dubai before taking PTP's helm, on the other hand.

[justanothercybertosser]

is she that? an internationally recognized forensic scientist? with the emphasis on scientist how is her scientific reputation amongst academic peers? on the natinal level and on the international level?

From what i have heard her reputation is very good - as a forensic scientist - not as a universal savior of the nation.

[brahmburgers]

During T's last weeks in office, I compiled a list of the three best candidates for top position in Thailand. I admit I don't know much about the large numbers of men who incessantly jockey for favor in the corridors of Thai politics. However, each time one of their heads pop up from the crowd, he shows himself to be inept at best.

Here are the list of three (sorry I don't have the names of two. Am too short on time to research them right now):

1. Ms Porntip. Thailand's best known forensic specialist. Author of several books. Wild hairstyle. Not afraid to buck the trend of always doing what superiors tell her to do, even to the extent of locking horns with police chiefs, when standing up for what she feels it right.

2. The woman who was (still is?) in charge of National Counter Corruption Commitee (or some such thing) and who was locked out of her office for months by TRT loyalists, for doggedly pursuing corrupt politicians.

3. The young woman reporter who didn't bow to intense pressure when sued by Thaksin. She was sued because of an Op-Ed newspaper report she put together which wasn't flattering to Thaksin.

All three are women, all three share a commendable quality (among others) of sticking with what they feel is right, in spite of immense pressure to conform to the power structure's status quo.

OK I had some time to check,

here they are:

1. Khunying Porntip Rojanasunant.

2. Khunying Jaruvan Maintaka

3. Supinya Klangnarong

All three of these good ladies have more balls and moral courage and ethics than most of the men presently serving in the Thai government. They are not afraid to speak the truth and seek out corruption. Perhaps if the country was governed by this type of character it would make more progress.

thanks. RatCatcher, for shedding some light on that.

Apart from the fact that she is a celebrity forensic scientist, what exactly is Porntip famous for...?

Porntip exemplifies a rare type of Thai person who is not afraid to buck the trend of marching lock-step with what 'the party' dictates. Maybe she herself is not the best candidate for high office (a person would have to be rather masochistic to aspire to that, anyway) but it's people with her rare qualities of smarts and non-conformist innovative thinking that Thailand desperately needs running the government.

They (the Reds), pretty much like Thaksin himself, had a chance to introduce something really fresh and inspiring into Thai political scene, and they failed.

What did reds give us to think about? Thaksin pardon?

Now Chavalit has taken the helm of their political party. How progressive....

I thought Chalerm was their deputy leader of the month. Oh well, whether it be Chavalit or Chalerm, it's clear they opt to trot out old worn out war horses, as they can't seem to find any original ideas to espouse or vibrant new people to showcase.

[justanothercybertosser]

..attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so

Who cares?

The anonymous poster calling himself "Plus" may not care, but as it appears - millions of Thais do.

[justanothercybertosser]

I thought Chalerm was their deputy leader of the month. Oh well, whether it be Chavalit or Chalerm, it's clear they opt to trot out old worn out war horses, as they can't seem to find any original ideas to espouse or vibrant new people to showcase.

Trying to ignore Pornthip hero worship here.

Chavalit obviously has not been chosen for vibrant new ideas (many who have those have been banned already), but most likely for a different level of the conflict happening away from the eye of the public - the importance of competing patronage networks, especially within the military. Chavalit has still enormous pull under many officers under his patronage, needed to counter the networks of the Guard Regiments.

[Plus]

Chavalit obviously has not been chosen for vibrant new ideas (many who have those have been banned already), but most likely for a different level of the conflict happening away from the eye of the public - the importance of competing patronage networks, especially within the military. Chavalit has still enormous pull under many officers under his patronage, needed to counter the networks of the Guard Regiments.

So patronage is ok when it's used to red advantage.

And no, people outside red cult do not care about revelations about Prem.

Prem is not feared, he is respected, on rare occasions people even remember his existence.

And there must be something wrong with vibrant new ideas if they fail to catch publics interest. Ideas do not depend on personalities.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Plus

[Rumfoord]

2. The woman who was (still is?) in charge of National Counter Corruption Commitee (or some such thing) and who was locked out of her office for months by TRT loyalists, for doggedly pursuing corrupt politicians.

..

All three are women, all three share a commendable quality (among others) of sticking with what they feel is right, in spite of immense pressure to conform to the power structure's status quo.

...

2. Khunying Jaruvan Maintaka

...

All three of these good ladies have more balls and moral courage and ethics than most of the men presently serving in the Thai government.

They are not afraid to speak the truth and seek out corruption.

Perhaps if the country was governed by this type of character it would make more progress.

how someone could seriously suggested that woman, Jaruvan Maintaka, and praise her is totally behind me.

the two other persons, i think both of them don't want to become politicans or the PM. such a suggestion is plain silly. yes, it is not bad to have a socialite like Dr. Pronthip and it is good to have journalists like Supinya Klangnarong.

TVforum member absolutelybangkok published recently an interview with her Supinya at his blog http://absolutelybangkok.com/supinya-klang...ice-of-freedom/ don't miss to read also the comment section and her response.

[justanothercybertosser]

Chavalit obviously has not been chosen for vibrant new ideas (many who have those have been banned already), but most likely for a different level of the conflict happening away from the eye of the public - the importance of competing patronage networks, especially within the military. Chavalit has still enormous pull under many officers under his patronage, needed to counter the networks of the Guard Regiments.

So patronage is ok when it's used to red advantage.

And no, people outside red cult do not care about revelations about Prem.

Prem is not feared, he is respected, on rare occasions people even remember his existence.

And there must be something wrong with vibrant new ideas if they fail to catch publics interest. Ideas do not depend on personalities.

How could you get the idea that i find it "OK" to re-install Chavalit? I doubt that in any of my posts i had ever anything good to say about Chavalit. I simply explained for what reasons Chavalit most likely pulled into PPT, not that i would think "it's OK".

After more than 3 years, how many election victories of TRT/PPP/PT, how many more mass demonstrations of ten thousands, if not more than 100 000 people on occasion, does it need to convince you that these ideas have the support of a more than sizable portion of the Thai population? Thailand today is a pluralistic soeciety, and increasing amounts of Thais do question "respected" figures, if you like it or not.

This is a fact, if you agree or not is completely beside the point.

[Samuian]

Samak, Somchai, Chalerm., Chavalit, Nattawut, Veera, Jakrapob, Jatupong, Suporn, Shinawat Haboonpard... who else would be patting "his Master's" paw's ....?

All his hopefuls and the willing one's, nothing to lose, let's try it again, again, again.... one can only hope that the electorate learns from what is happening and surfacing ever clearer the last couple of years.

The "Elite" which the 'red shirts" point their fingers, for their master at, as been told - are the very substance of law and order of this country!

It might not be exactly the same, but as another Poster here on the board pointed out, someone may have read a book like "greatest leaders of the world" and is trying to become one of them - he got the funds... let's try it - it's in this case all ego, not being able to give in .... nope - the battle has to be won - no matter what and not matter at what price!

The move to the "underprivileged" was the only way someone would lend him an ear, without criticism, applaud what ever

the empty promises are .... hail, hail, hail to the "savior"!

History hopefully doesn't repeat itself over and over again - it would be awful painful to recover from this!

Edited October 6, 2009 by Samuian

[justanothercybertosser]

TVforum member absolutelybangkok published recently an interview with her Supinya at his blog http://absolutelybangkok.com/supinya-klang...ice-of-freedom/ don't miss to read also the comment section and her response.

Thanks for the link.

Plus and others of his persuasion should read this interview.

[Plus]

**deleted for language**

[cdnvic]

There is no reason to use profanities here. It just wastes your time as the post gets deleted.

[Plus]

Here it is again, without "profanities". I thought forum software sorts them out, not the mods.

How could you get the idea that i find it "OK" to re-install Chavalit? I doubt that in any of my posts i had ever anything good to say about Chavalit. I simply explained for what reasons Chavalit most likely pulled into PPT, not that i would think "it's OK".

I'm not talking about you personally but about reds in general. They seem to be ok with it. They didn't mind when Chaisit Shinawatra approved of a new coup, too.

After more than 3 years, how many election victories of TRT/PPP/PT, how many more mass demonstrations of ten thousands, if not more than 100 000 people on occasion, does it need to convince you that these ideas have the support of a more than sizable portion of the Thai population?

After Songkran the air went out of that balloon. They had their chance and blew it.

Thaksin support is sizable but shrinking.

The fact is that outside the red circle itself no one knows that they are on about and don't give a ***. "Let's have a two months anniversary of the pardon petition" - who cares? Old news.

Equally, no one cares about tomorrow's PAD demo either. There's something happening outside the colored meetings, and it's called life, and at this point both groups are largely irrelevant, and ignored.

Booooring.

[justanothercybertosser]

Here it is again, without "profanities". I thought forum software sorts them out, not the mods.

After Songkran the air went out of that balloon. They had their chance and blew it.

Thaksin support is sizable but shrinking.

The fact is that outside the red circle itself no one knows that they are on about and don't give a ***. "Let's have a two months anniversary of the pardon petition" - who cares? Old news.

Equally, no one cares about tomorrow's PAD demo either. There's something happening outside the colored meetings, and it's called life, and at this point both groups are largely irrelevant, and ignored.

Booooring.

And here my answer again:

Is that just your opinion, or is it supported by any study?

The massive local media interest before every Red Shirt rally should show you the opposite.

When things heat up again, which they most definitely will, can i quote you on this post ("no one knows...", "don't give a profanity...", "old news...", "ignored...", etc.)?

Anyhow, if it is so "boooring", why then these many posts from you on the subject matter?

[Publicus]

The real problem with red ideologists is not that they are working for the enemy, it's that they are a complete and utter failure. They, pretty much like Thaksin himself, had a chance to introduce something really fresh and inspiring into Thai political scene, and they failed.

Actually - they did introduce some very fresh and novel concepts into the Thai political scene. To name just one - attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so.

Several times at these threads you've attacked the Privy Council and certain privy councillors, Prem especially so I have asked the question before but you still haven't answered it, so I still don't understand. Given that it's clear attacking the Privy Council and certain of its members is a radical initiative and pursuit, why do the Reds do it and why do you cite the attacks as being such a wonderful thing and a significant development to Thailand?

If you and the Reds don't like the Privy Council or certain privy councillors, to whom do you guys go hand in hand to present your grievance and to seek a remedy satisfactory to you? When would you seek your redress and remedy and how would you obtain it?

Being from the USA I don't know if the Privy Council is a part of the parliament, or whether it might be an independent agency whose membership might be approved by the Senate etc. Why are some or all of the privy councillors a major target of the Reds and what do they and you intend to do about it? Kindly enlighten me, thank you.

[Rumfoord]

Actually - they did introduce some very fresh and novel concepts into the Thai political scene. To name just one - attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so.

Several times at these threads you've attacked the Privy Council and certain privy councillors, Prem especially so I have asked the question before but you still haven't answered it, so I still don't understand. Given that it's clear attacking the Privy Council and certain of its members is a radical initiative and pursuit, why do the Reds do it and why do you cite the attacks as being such a wonderful thing and a significant development to Thailand?

If you and the Reds don't like the Privy Council or certain privy councillors, to whom do you guys go hand in hand to present your grievance and to seek a remedy satisfactory to you? When would you seek your redress and remedy and how would you obtain it?

Being from the USA I don't know if the Privy Council is a part of the parliament, or whether it might be an independent agency whose membership might be approved by the Senate etc. Why are some or all of the privy councillors a major target of the Reds and what do they and you intend to do about it? Kindly enlighten me, thank you.

simple check the reason WHY Prem get criticised.

being from the USA doesn't exempt you from studying a little bit the basic facts before entering the discussion.

[Scott]

Let's be very careful about discussions of the Privy Council and above. It's probably fine to discuss how one gets on the Privy council, but please exercise extreme caution in discussions of it further than that.

[Publicus]

Let's be very careful about discussions of the Privy Council and above. It's probably fine to discuss how one gets on the Privy council, but please exercise extreme caution in discussions of it further than that.

Hear, hear!!

[Publicus]

Actually - they did introduce some very fresh and novel concepts into the Thai political scene. To name just one - attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so.

Several times at these threads you've attacked the Privy Council and certain privy councillors, Prem especially so I have asked the question before but you still haven't answered it, so I still don't understand. Given that it's clear attacking the Privy Council and certain of its members is a radical initiative and pursuit, why do the Reds do it and why do you cite the attacks as being such a wonderful thing and a significant development to Thailand?

If you and the Reds don't like the Privy Council or certain privy councillors, to whom do you guys go hand in hand to present your grievance and to seek a remedy satisfactory to you? When would you seek your redress and remedy and how would you obtain it?

Being from the USA I don't know if the Privy Council is a part of the parliament, or whether it might be an independent agency whose membership might be approved by the Senate etc. Why are some or all of the privy councillors a major target of the Reds and what do they and you intend to do about it? Kindly enlighten me, thank you.

simple check the reason WHY Prem get criticised.

being from the USA doesn't exempt you from studying a little bit the basic facts before entering the discussion.

Thank you for your sage and unsolicited advice-- I'll get on the requisite research right away.

[justanothercybertosser]

Several times at these threads you've attacked the Privy Council and certain privy councillors, Prem especially so I have asked the question before but you still haven't answered it, so I still don't understand. Given that it's clear attacking the Privy Council and certain of its members is a radical initiative and pursuit, why do the Reds do it and why do you cite the attacks as being such a wonderful thing and a significant development to Thailand?

If you and the Reds don't like the Privy Council or certain privy councillors, to whom do you guys go hand in hand to present your grievance and to seek a remedy satisfactory to you? When would you seek your redress and remedy and how would you obtain it?

Being from the USA I don't know if the Privy Council is a part of the parliament, or whether it might be an independent agency whose membership might be approved by the Senate etc. Why are some or all of the privy councillors a major target of the Reds and what do they and you intend to do about it? Kindly enlighten me, thank you.

You seem to be under a blatant misconception here. Nothing possibly could persuade me doing anything - this is a Thai problem, for Thais to solve. I only observe, study and opine.

Why Red Shirts (and many other independent groups and individuals) attack the Privy Council i really don't need to explain to you. If you would like to understand this, you should spend some time reading and learning. I have already named one very recent study you should read (i bet you haven't taken the time ), there are countless others dealing with the subject matter easily available on the net, researched by many well known academics in the field of Thai studies. In addition to this there are many serious blogs and websites who deal with related issues, to name a few: New Mandala, Bangkok Pundit, Prachatai. Read them, they are very educating (i bet you won't take the advice ).

I can only answer your question about significant developments - it clearly is a very significant development went a large social movement questions for the first time an embedded system. If the result will be wonderful, or not, or anything in between - history will show. One thing is for certain though - Thailand has changed tremendously, and more changes will happen soon. The complexities and intricacies of those developments i find extremely fascinating.

[Publicus]

As a believer in assisted suicide I willingly hand as much rope with a noose at the end as the person wishes to take:

Actually - they did introduce some very fresh and novel concepts into the Thai political scene. To name just one - attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so.

As you were saying......

[justanothercybertosser]

As a believer in assisted suicide I willingly hand as much rope with a noose at the end as the person wishes to take:

Actually - they did introduce some very fresh and novel concepts into the Thai political scene. To name just one - attacking Prem and other Privy councilors for interfering in political affairs, and asking them to refrain from doing so.

As you were saying......

And what on earth are you trying to say here?

Edited October 6, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[animatic]

is she that? an internationally recognized forensic scientist? with the emphasis on scientist how is her scientific reputation amongst academic peers? on the natinal level and on the international level?

From what i have heard her reputation is very good - as a forensic scientist - not as a universal savior of the nation.

She is well known and respected in Europe and USA, and even more so after the Tsunami.

Her credentials are top notch and she is considered too honest in 'police circles' here.

All reasons why her stock doesn't go down too easily.