Bangkok Post Bans Thaivisa From Using Its Content

[elcent]

looks like tv has it's own servers, lol.

Domain servers in listed order:

ns.thaivisa.com

ns1.thaivisa.com

ns1.webwebhost.com

ns2.webwebhost.com

[Puccini]

...reference to the legal precedent that actually forbids you from quoting with use of referents...

I guess there is no law forbidding one to respect the wish of another person even if that other person might have no legal right to enforce compliance with his wish. If it is not important to you, why risk a legal fight? Even if the courts decide in your favour in the end, is it worth your effort, your time and your money (for legal expenses) to get a court’s confirmation that you are right? Aside from that, laws can be subject to varying interpretations and even if the law is in your and your lawyer's eyes clearly in your favour a court could still decide against you. We read about this in the papers all the time.

I did once fight a case up to the supreme court in Italy even though I was 97% sure that I would lose, and I did lose, but I had a specific reason for this and I benefitted from it financially in the long term. If I were the publisher of Bangkok posts and you used content from my newspaper for commercial gain I think I would sue you, expecting to lose my case but in the process gain enough new subscribers to more than make up for my loss. And with a bit of luck I might even win my court case against you.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Puccini

[clausewitz]

Don't newspapers usually believe in freedom of speech? I guess just not their speech.

It seems to be that it is more Thiavisa deciding they do not want any links or quotes from Bangkok post. It is reasonable of the Bangkok post to restrict other websites from posting whole articles or large sections, but it seems thaivisa has decided to take it a step further and prohibit even a few words - in complete disregard of common copyright laws.

Why they want to do that is anyones guess.

[Plus]

They just need to find a solution where every time a Thaivisa user reads Bangkok Post article reposted here, the click gets registered at Bangkok Post itself, too.

I have no idea how RSS feed can get published on TV. When I subscribe to RSS I get the content into my computer, how does TV come into this?

Thaivisa.com can have a page with latest news from Bangkok Post coming via RSS, but the forum doesn't have this option, and even if it had - people would still copy-paste content from that page into other threads and comment on it - that's how discussion boards work. At best they'd provide a link, just as they always did.

On the other hand, there could be a lot of users simply checking out that RSS page as part of their daily routine, but that's not guaranteed, they could check out BP news on BP's own website just as well.

Are the BP effectively telling people that they can't discuss BP articles anywhere but their own forum?

[Puccini]

...It is reasonable of the Bangkok post to restrict other websites from posting whole articles or large sections...

I remember reading a post on ThaiVisa reminding people to limit quotes from Bangkok Post and other publications to the first few lines, for copyright reasons. It looks like the Bangkok Post and apparently also some other publications now no longer want to allow this limited quotation. Let's wait and see who will be the first to be sued by this new club of Thai publishers.

[jasreeve17]

Don't newspapers usually believe in freedom of speech? I guess just not their speech.

It seems to be that it is more Thiavisa deciding they do not want any links or quotes from Bangkok post. It is reasonable of the Bangkok post to restrict other websites from posting whole articles or large sections, but it seems thaivisa has decided to take it a step further and prohibit even a few words - in complete disregard of common copyright laws.

Why they want to do that is anyones guess.

I agree with you.

As I suggested in my post above this is an easy excuse being used by ThaiVisa beacause of their tie-up with the Nation; I'd guess. The Nation deal was always bad news (literally?) for this community, though an understandable business move for the owners.

As long as we understand that the motivation for money (a business requirement after all) is more important than anything else then we have a pretty easy understanding of the way this deal has gone.

[Plus]

Here's an idea - when someone wants to use BP content, there's a special "insert" button where he can copy-paste the link, and when people view this post, the content of that link is loaded automatically from BP website, thus giving them a hit. There could be a "show/hide" toggle button to display this content, too.

BP, on its end, should provide this "text only" version, or even ability to create "quote only" links - no one wants to load a whole page with all the menus and graphics inside a forum post.

[dantilley]

According to this article in The Nation, The Nation themselves as well as 12 other news content providers have also signed up for this deal. I guess The Nation, with their ties to ThaiVisa, will allow content to still be reproduced here, but should we also be wary about quoting from the others? The list of members is:

ASTV Manager, Thai Rath Online, Daily News Online, Matichon, Post Publishing, the Nation Multimedia Group, Siam Sport, INN Online, Thansettakij Online, Dara Daily Online, Nawnha Online, Siam Rath Online and Thai Post Online.

If so, why only mention the Bangkok Post and not the others? Or doesn't ThaiVisa consider the other members significant enough to warrant a mention?

[jasreeve17]

Here's an idea - when someone wants to use BP content, there's a special "insert" button where he can copy-paste the link, and when people view this post, the content of that link is loaded automatically from BP website, thus giving them a hit. There could be a "show/hide" toggle button to display this content, too.

BP, on its end, should provide this "text only" version, or even ability to create "quote only" links - no one wants to load a whole page with all the menus and graphics inside a forum post.

Plus, that might be a nice idea, but I suspect TV does not want to show any hint of BkkPost media, and certainly doesn't want any kind of joint revenue stream or partnership that conflicts with existing tie-ups; the Nation.

[bkkjames]

Considering that it's usually the same news in both papers anyway that we end up discussing in this section (local politics, murder and mischief), why not rename it the Nation Newsclippings Forum on TV and be done with it.

[elcent]

According to this article in The Nation, The Nation themselves as well as 12 other news content providers have also signed up for this deal. I guess The Nation, with their ties to ThaiVisa, will allow content to still be reproduced here, but should we also be wary about quoting from the others? The list of members is:

ASTV Manager, Thai Rath Online, Daily News Online, Matichon, Post Publishing, the Nation Multimedia Group, Siam Sport, INN Online, Thansettakij Online, Dara Daily Online, Nawnha Online, Siam Rath Online and Thai Post Online.

If so, why only mention the Bangkok Post and not the others? Or doesn't ThaiVisa consider the other members significant enough to warrant a mention?

simply because BP is in English whilst the others are mainly in Thai

[Mai Krap]

RSS is irrelevant today. Why in the world would Bangkok Post be trying to get on that train 3 years after it already left the station? Sure when the internet sucked from a lack of speed getting little text type tickers was very cool and seemed almost "Techie" but not anymore. Twitter is a hundred times more relevant and I dont even see them being around in 2 years unless they completely reinvent themselves. There is always a faster kid gunning for a name when your seen as the old gunslinger.

The problem with Bangkok Post is their content sucks, that comes from poor management. They could turn things around but I dont see it happening as they are now cutting their own throats. In fact the name of the game is getting as many clicks as you can get, asking people to not link to their website and use RSS is totally insane.

This is all pretty funny if you think about it. The Nation would be dead in the water without ThaiVisa, as they had no vision of the future and now have to piggy back off the forum to get more clicks and keep their name relevant. Who in the world looking back would even go with a crazy domain like NationMultiMedia? If they can hang onto or possibly buy out Thiavisa they may be around in a few years but even Rupert Murdock is feeling the heat as advertising changes and its only going to get worse for all the old players. Computers and the internet are just now coming of age, those heavily invested in old ideas, old infrastructure, and old technology are going to find it very hard to compete with some of the new start ups who can do the same thing out of a hotel room with a laptop and no financial investment.

[jasreeve17]

According to this article in The Nation, The Nation themselves as well as 12 other news content providers have also signed up for this deal. I guess The Nation, with their ties to ThaiVisa, will allow content to still be reproduced here, but should we also be wary about quoting from the others? The list of members is:

ASTV Manager, Thai Rath Online, Daily News Online, Matichon, Post Publishing, the Nation Multimedia Group, Siam Sport, INN Online, Thansettakij Online, Dara Daily Online, Nawnha Online, Siam Rath Online and Thai Post Online.

If so, why only mention the Bangkok Post and not the others? Or doesn't ThaiVisa consider the other members significant enough to warrant a mention?

Exactly the point I made a few posts ago. Your first question is kinda answered by your first line, isn't it?

[JR Texas]

According to this article in The Nation, The Nation themselves as well as 12 other news content providers have also signed up for this deal. I guess The Nation, with their ties to ThaiVisa, will allow content to still be reproduced here, but should we also be wary about quoting from the others? The list of members is:

ASTV Manager, Thai Rath Online, Daily News Online, Matichon, Post Publishing, the Nation Multimedia Group, Siam Sport, INN Online, Thansettakij Online, Dara Daily Online, Nawnha Online, Siam Rath Online and Thai Post Online.

If so, why only mention the Bangkok Post and not the others? Or doesn't ThaiVisa consider the other members significant enough to warrant a mention?

Exactly the point I made a few posts ago. Your first question is kinda answered by your first line, isn't it?

I wonder if they would reconsider their decision if we all stopped buying the BP and encouraged our English-speaking/reading friends to do the same.

We can get far better information off of the internet from places like Al Jazeera, CNN, BBC, etc.

This seems like a misguided decision that will only hurt sales of the BP.

[mrtoad]

As I suggested in my post above this is an easy excuse being used by ThaiVisa beacause of their tie-up with the Nation; I'd guess. The Nation deal was always bad news (literally?) for this community, though an understandable business move for the owners.

As long as we understand that the motivation for money (a business requirement after all) is more important than anything else then we have a pretty easy understanding of the way this deal has gone.

I think thus sums it up more than anything. I was sceptical of the original tie up with The Mation, and this only goes to reinforce my belief that this tie up would have impact at some point. The Nation are hardly going to be happy with BP articles being on a board that they sponsor, and this just seems a convenient excuse to prevent it. IMO though both papers are a total joke, although I do think that the BP is slightly better than The Nation -although I've found the Beano to be better as well.

[CMFarang]

FOLLOWING are my original words and thoughts , free to be used by whomever may like to do so.

Maybe Thaivisa could join up with this "Society for Online News Providers, (SONP)", problem solved ? Can I use their name here ???

Laws protecting news articles ?? Information that is gathered in Public ?? The world is truly becoming a twisted place...

Actually, reading the BP is something I stopped doing years ago, when they canned the Editor over Political statements.

Having "Quotes" from it in TV has actually caused me to buy a copy now ant then. Som Nam Nah to me.

Now I buy the BP by the Kilo (6 Baht a Kilo) and use it for package stuffing and to cover messy areas like the Puppy Box.

I do at times miss the Humour of the articles and the points of view expressed, but the last 2 Original , Over Priced BP's I did purchase are still sitting here , partially read , but never finished...

RSS is probably a Great Idea , for those who understand or want it...

Time to change the PUPPY PAPER, read what happened at some time in the past and have a chuckle...

[OxfordWill]

It is technically illegal to post any news content from any news source on a web forum like this, the fact web forums like TV get away with it is only because they are small fish and unnoticeable. If you get requests to stop doing it it is a positive sign your forum is actually getting noticed by someone.

Thaivisa is a profit making entity, and in the recent past there have been cases wherein a copyright claim has been made on news articles against NON profit websites using the content along with a fair use statement. Thaivisa not only makes money for a private entity but it also does not have a fair use statement, and even if it did, recent history shows this is no legal protection.

Edited October 2, 2009 by OxfordWill

[VBF]

What doesn't appear to have been mentioned in this thread is that, once the BKK Post has published the content on their website, it is then in the Public Domain (unless of course you need to be a member of the BKK Post's website to read it.)

Therefore IMHO (!), "a post of this kind" SHOULD still be possible, because you would simply be making access to the BKK Post's own website more easily accessible, not quoting from it - an interesting distinction.

Also, you would be advertising a link to the BKK Post's own website. Of course, I am NOT a lawyer and I'm writing this from the UK where different paractices, customs etc are in force. It would be interesting to see comments from people truly conversant with Thai law - George, do you intend to pursue this angle at all?

[bkkjames]

Dwindling subscribers and advertisers make for angry publishers.

The problem BK Post and the Nation have is that they haven't got the balls to charge for online services. I am sure if we polled this, it would would show that +65% of TV members do not subscribe to either because of instant news provided by their very own websites.

Look at the topics we start in here - all come from the 'breaking news' sections of their websites...not from yesterday's news in the print edtions.

I for one would be willing to dish out say 300 baht a year each to subscribe to both online only.

[Plus]

Here's an idea - when someone wants to use BP content, there's a special "insert" button where he can copy-paste the link, and when people view this post, the content of that link is loaded automatically from BP website, thus giving them a hit. There could be a "show/hide" toggle button to display this content, too.

BP, on its end, should provide this "text only" version, or even ability to create "quote only" links - no one wants to load a whole page with all the menus and graphics inside a forum post.

Plus, that might be a nice idea, but I suspect TV does not want to show any hint of BkkPost media, and certainly doesn't want any kind of joint revenue stream or partnership that conflicts with existing tie-ups; the Nation.

Of course the deal must involve both companies, and it's not sharing revenue, there will be no impact on Thaivisa click counters at all, it's BP who'll get additional hits, with no reduction for any of the deal partners.

Technically it might take some time to set up - Thavisa needs to tweak the board software (and it buys it from a third source, so it's not easy), and BP needs to add special links to thier stories, ala youtube code for inserting videos in other pages, and it needs to show some ads to go with those links, too - otherwise their advertising partners will have no interest in this kind of clicks.

[OxfordWill]

Therefore IMHO (!), "a post of this kind" SHOULD still be possible, because you would simply be making access to the BKK Post's own website more easily accessible, not quoting from it - an interesting distinction.

Also, you would be advertising a link to the BKK Post's own website. Of course, I am NOT a lawyer and I'm writing this from the UK where different paractices, customs etc are in force. It would be interesting to see comments from people truly conversant with Thai law - George, do you intend to pursue this angle at all?

you are posting what you think should be the case but sadly it is not.

[patklang]

Pitty, I find the Bkk Post far better than the Nation

Complete utter crap paper,other than the front page changes daily,the rest is same same every day.

Can we talk about the paper or do we have to whisper.

PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT ME ON HERE OR I WILL SUE

[Plus]

.. would be interesting to see comments from people truly conversant with Thai law

No point - when the laws were written the situation didn't exist.

Legally Thaivisa might be in the right if it ignores BP's request, but both parties are not looking for fights, they are looking for cooperation, and the law doesn't cover that yet.

[a99az]

ThaiVisa.com have you taken this lying down?

As a journalist of over 20 years and lecturer of Mass Comms, I am unaware of the legal strength of this decision, and it sounds as though you are too - as you have not mentioned any REAL legal argument for this decision. Have you been bullied? Acted out of fear? Simply believed that you can not properly quote with use of referents, just because they told you so?

This sounds fishy ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls.

Perhaps you may wish to put this to rest by actually quoting your legal source, or making reference to the legal precedent that actually forbids you from quoting with use of referents.

There is NO legal precedent for this. They have NO legal right to prevent you from quoting them with full credit.

What's the REAL story here Thaivisa?

Don't you have a duty to report the truth, ethically and responsibly, as well as some kind of duty to your readership?

Maybe you should make a stand - with respect.

Unless they want it that way, then they can support someone else maybe!!

Sounds like some thing personal to me.

[MaiChai]

What I would like is decent translation of the Thai newspapers online rather than the wishy washy journalism of the English language newspapers. I mean the English language ones exist because most of us cannot read Thai fluently and thus we are at the mercy of the reporting of the The Nation/Bangkokpost/etc. Often the English is poor or the journalism is just lousy; seeing the Thai papers properly translated would be much preferable in my opinion. In a way what we see in English language papers is very much filtered.

[Somtamnication]

What laws there are that could force TV to comply or aren't is completely superfluous. BP is affiliated with he who cannot be mentioned and as such, cause of living in a feudal system of power, TV must obey.

BP traffic will now decrease significantly and as with the usual shoot in the foot policy in this country, their print media price will now go up, advertising revenue will now decrease.

So be it.

[Plus]

What I would like is decent translation of the Thai newspapers online rather than the wishy washy journalism of the English language newspapers. I mean the English language ones exist because most of us cannot read Thai fluently and thus we are at the mercy of the reporting of the The Nation/Bangkokpost/etc. Often the English is poor or the journalism is just lousy; seeing the Thai papers properly translated would be much preferable in my opinion. In a way what we see in English language papers is very much filtered.

Well, this thread is about newspapers feeling squeezed for revenue, majority of them Thai, do you think that they'd invest in translations so that farangs can start ripping them off, too?

[sjaak327]

What I would like is decent translation of the Thai newspapers online rather than the wishy washy journalism of the English language newspapers. I mean the English language ones exist because most of us cannot read Thai fluently and thus we are at the mercy of the reporting of the The Nation/Bangkokpost/etc. Often the English is poor or the journalism is just lousy; seeing the Thai papers properly translated would be much preferable in my opinion. In a way what we see in English language papers is very much filtered.

You can of course solve that problem by learning Thai, should be very handy in day to day life in any case.

[elcent]

honestly think about that

you have news you think it's important for people to know, what/how would you like to have them spread to people?

You'd give a dam_n fxxk if somebody copy/paste or not, I'd regard it as blessing.

When the news can be life saving I'd regard it even more.

In other words it's not about news and the purpose to have them out by any means for all of these disguised news providers, but to control and gain power.

Definitely, they are in the wrong business.

Remember, the English Queen has forced the BBC to have their items copied by whomsoever want it, and to shown it in whatever media. Yes you can have your own BBC with whatever content you chose on whatever domain name and in any deco with added discussion option for the content.

Edited October 2, 2009 by elcent

[tmark]

My belief in Karma has been strengthened. Now ,now, sense of humour guys.