Parental Power Court Paper In Thailand

[thaidiver]

Hello, I'm married to a women from the province of Buriram. Our goal is to get the her 2 year old child and her to the US of A. The child is from a previous short relationship with a Thai man, they were unwed. The father has never supported the child in any way, and has not lived with either of them from the birth of the child. After speaking to a Visa consultant in Thailand, I was told that the US Consulate in BKK would require a Parental Power Consent paper from her home province. On a side note the Thailand itself doesn't require this document for anything if the mother and father are unwed, and the mother is considered to have the parental power by default.

I went to the Consulate and they told me I had two options in the regard.

A. Have the biological father of the child(whom is on the birth certificate) come in to the US consulate and sign and make a statement to the effect that he gives up all parental power.

Out of the question! I will not be bribed or deal with this assclown.

B. Get a lawyer(?) and begin court proceeding to get the Parental Power document in the province of Buriram

What should a lawyer in this region of Thailand charge for such a thing? What are the possible problems/conflicts we may encounter? Does the Biological father need a lawyer if he was to show up and defend himself? If he doesn't show up for the court date is it a default judgment for the my wife? Will the lawyer assume that there is a farang involved and demand more and more money? Thank you for any positive and helpful feedback and answers.

Cheers

[7by7]

Not sure if this helps, but.....

When my wife divorced her children's father they had joint custody; however he took no interest in his children and so my wife wanted to get sole custody for herself. This could be done by both parents signing the relevant forms at an ampur, but as he wouldn't cooperate it meant going to court.

The father simply did not turn up to the hearing and it was adjourned three times to give him another chance, before on the fourth time the court heard the case in his absence and awarded custody the my wife. This meant the whole process took over 12 months!

This was in Bangkok in 2000.

Fortunately a friend of my wife had a lawyer friend who agreed to handle the case for a reduced fee of 10,000baht. This was before we knew each other, I'm sure the fee would have been higher had a farang been involved!

I understand and admire your principles, but it would probably be both quicker and cheaper to slip the father a couple of thousand baht to sign the necessary papers.

[thaidiver]

Time is money and money is time, you are correct. As stated, the US consulate doesn't accept this sort of document from local Ampurs and the Biological father must travel to the US consulate in BKK. My feeling is that because of the loss of face involved, on his side, that he will just not do it or ask for an astronomical figure to execute it.

Sounds like a hard trudge no matter which road I take.

[edgarfriendly]

have u spoken with the father?

does he have any opinions on the matter?

he may well be willing to co-operate.

he may wish to have more access than hes been afforded.

on what basis have u called him an 'assclown'?

ef

[thaidiver]

have u spoken with the father?

does he have any opinions on the matter?

he may well be willing to co-operate.

he may wish to have more access than hes been afforded.

on what basis have u called him an 'assclown'?

ef

Where to start. He has attempted to kidnap the child at least once, after this incident he rarely visits. He has not helped support the child financially. He has been in jail at least once, for shooting someone in an drunken fight(directly after the childs birth). He is basically a village no-gooder, whom rarely works, is rarely sober, and rarely has money for anything but whiskey. He has a Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hide personality when it comes to his alcohol consumption; according to my wife. In a skewed Thai cultural way he probably sees this child as belonging to him since it is his first born(and son),and a source of personal pride, and will be looking for a substantial bribe if he is to walk into the American Consulate and reliquish custody of the child. Furthermore he has stated many times to her not to leave her village, that he will follow her and/or take the child if she does so.

He is not a compassionate person whom will see the greater good in his son being raised and educated in the USA, and of course having a much brighter future. So in summation he is not a reasonable person whom could be approached with this favor. He is an assclown.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Time is money and money is time, you are correct. As stated, the US consulate doesn't accept this sort of document from local Ampurs and the Biological father must travel to the US consulate in BKK. My feeling is that because of the loss of face involved, on his side, that he will just not do it or ask for an astronomical figure to execute it.

Sounds like a hard trudge no matter which road I take.

I'd bet that if the Consulate doesn't accept "this sort of document" from the Amphur the would accept a Thai court judgement in favor of the mom having sole custody of the child. Strange, tho, re the Consulate's attitude as they do accept Amphur level divorce proceedings. And often child custody is part of this local level business at the amphur.

In any case, the Thai provincial court level judgement would, I'd expect, be acceptable.

My now wife & I went this route prior to marriage, her ex didn't show up for the court so judgement went to her uncontested, three kids involved. Cost was baht 10,000 to the lawyer. Time was about 4-5 months, including three months "advertising" the proceeding in a real obscure legal newspaper circulated in Thailand.

Mac

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

You need to fully ascertain who has legal custody of this child. Often, in cases where the mother and father were unwed, the mother is the only person with legal custody. This is especially true where the father never legitimized the child by appearing on the birth certificate. If she has sole custody, the mother may need to obtain a Por Kor 14 (PK 14) as well as a separate affidavit from the local Amphur which states she has sole custody. This can be somewhat difficult, we deal with this issue often and much depends upon the local Amphur officer. She will need to obtain this documentation at the Amphur in the District where her Tabien Baan is registered. The Amphur document is valid and ought to be accepted by the Embassy.

I hope this was helpful.

All the Best!

[thaidiver]

You need to fully ascertain who has legal custody of this child. Often, in cases where the mother and father were unwed, the mother is the only person with legal custody. This is especially true where the father never legitimized the child by appearing on the birth certificate. If she has sole custody, the mother may need to obtain a Por Kor 14 (PK 14) as well as a separate affidavit from the local Amphur which states she has sole custody. This can be somewhat difficult, we deal with this issue often and much depends upon the local Amphur officer. She will need to obtain this documentation at the Amphur in the District where her Tabien Baan is registered. The Amphur document is valid and ought to be accepted by the Embassy.

I hope this was helpful.

All the Best!

I was just at the US Consulate this Monday. This is what I was told:

1-They do not accept affidavits from the Amphur concerning parental power/custody.(i.e. documents stating the mother has sole custody and signed by the father on the birth certificate)

2-The father must sign the affidavit at the US Consulate, or

3-Procure the document throught the provincial court. (Have it officially translated, and bring it with you to get your travel doc.'s)

This is what I was told, unbelievable maybe. Across the street at the Homeland Security Immigration office, they do not require nor ask for this document in such cases. But I'm not eligible to use there services as I'm not a resident of Thailand. Thailand doesn't even require any further action for sole custody of children in such cases, see below.

CHILD CUSTODY: Under Thai law, the question of child custody is addressed in Book Five of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code under the general headings Termination of Marriage and Rights and Duties of Parent and Child . The relevant portions of the law follow in full:

Section 1566.

A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris. The parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the following cases:

(1) The father or mother is dead;

(2) It is uncertain whether the father or the mother is living or dead;

(3) The father or the mother has been adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent;

(4) The father or the mother is placed in a hospital by reason of mental infirmity;

(5) The parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an order of the court.

The parental power is exercised by the mother, when the child was born out of wedlock and has not yet been legitimated by the father according to Section 1547.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

Did they provide an example of the document they are requesting?

[thaidiver]

Did they provide an example of the document they are requesting?

No, but they wrote down the name of the document in Thai so my wife would know.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

I think the biological father must have legal custody of some kind (full or joint). Otherwise, in situations where the mother has full legal custody, the custody certificate can be obtained in a relatively straightforward manner at the Amphur. Unfortunately, it looks as though you will need to produce the father at the Embassy if that is what the Consular officer is requesting.

[thaidiver]

I think the biological father must have legal custody of some kind (full or joint). Otherwise, in situations where the mother has full legal custody, the custody certificate can be obtained in a relatively straightforward manner at the Amphur. Unfortunately, it looks as though you will need to produce the father at the Embassy if that is what the Consular officer is requesting.

Yes and No. Either he appears at the US Consulate or we pursue the document in court. These are the only two ways to satisfy the US Consulates policy. In Thailand, if the mother and father were/are unwed then the mother, by default, has sole custody(as in this case). But the US policy takes it this one step more.

[Mario2008]

Yes and No. Either he appears at the US Consulate or we pursue the document in court. These are the only two ways to satisfy the US Consulates policy. In Thailand, if the mother and father were/are unwed then the mother, by default, has sole custody(as in this case). But the US policy takes it this one step more.

Not completely correct, he would only have parental powers if he legitimised the child by registering the birth of the child at the amphur himself. The birth certificate would in that case show the name of the father twice: 1 time as the father of the child and 1 time as the person who registered the child.

So first look at the birth certificate if the name of the father appears there once or twice.

[thaidiver]

Yes and No. Either he appears at the US Consulate or we pursue the document in court. These are the only two ways to satisfy the US Consulates policy. In Thailand, if the mother and father were/are unwed then the mother, by default, has sole custody(as in this case). But the US policy takes it this one step more.

Not completely correct, he would only have parental powers if he legitimised the child by registering the birth of the child at the amphur himself. The birth certificate would in that case show the name of the father twice: 1 time as the father of the child and 1 time as the person who registered the child.

So first look at the birth certificate if the name of the father appears there once or twice.

It only shows him as the father of the child, nothing else. What I'm stating about the US consulate i just what they told me face to face.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

Consular Officers have almost unfettered discretion when requesting documentation to prove the facts of a case. If they told you what they want, then you should follow their instructions as they are the ultimate adjudicators. If possible, I think the best way would be to bring the biological father to the Embassy if they said they wanted him physically present when he signs off. It will probably take a great deal less time if he's amenable because going through the Thai court system in a matter such as this could be very cumbersome and slow.

Good luck!

[thaidiver]

Yes and No. Either he appears at the US Consulate or we pursue the document in court. These are the only two ways to satisfy the US Consulates policy. In Thailand, if the mother and father were/are unwed then the mother, by default, has sole custody(as in this case). But the US policy takes it this one step more.

Not completely correct, he would only have parental powers if he legitimised the child by registering the birth of the child at the amphur himself. The birth certificate would in that case show the name of the father twice: 1 time as the father of the child and 1 time as the person who registered the child.

So first look at the birth certificate if the name of the father appears there once or twice.

It only shows him as the father of the child, nothing else. What I'm stating about the US consulate i just what they told me face to face.

[thaidiver]

Yes and No. Either he appears at the US Consulate or we pursue the document in court. These are the only two ways to satisfy the US Consulates policy. In Thailand, if the mother and father were/are unwed then the mother, by default, has sole custody(as in this case). But the US policy takes it this one step more.

Not completely correct, he would only have parental powers if he legitimised the child by registering the birth of the child at the amphur himself. The birth certificate would in that case show the name of the father twice: 1 time as the father of the child and 1 time as the person who registered the child.

So first look at the birth certificate if the name of the father appears there once or twice.

It only shows him as the father of the child, nothing else. What I'm stating about the US consulate i just what they told me face to face.

[gburns57au]

Ask the father first......having a kid is sometimes a millstone around their necks and they are happy to lose it.

If he asks for money outside of fares and expenses to BKK, get your partner to ask him for an equal sum of money for back pay of child support.

My missus did this and the guy had no problem coming and signing the paperwork. She also had the support of his father which helped a lot.

Have you met the father and know of his history personally or are you relating second hand history.

Get his family to put pressure on him as well if you can.

You need to deal with the guy to achieve a speedy result....the only other option is to go through a laborious and expensive process.

[thaidiver]

Ask the father first......having a kid is sometimes a millstone around their necks and they are happy to lose it.

If he asks for money outside of fares and expenses to BKK, get your partner to ask him for an equal sum of money for back pay of child support.

My missus did this and the guy had no problem coming and signing the paperwork. She also had the support of his father which helped a lot.

Have you met the father and know of his history personally or are you relating second hand history.

Get his family to put pressure on him as well if you can.

You need to deal with the guy to achieve a speedy result....the only other option is to go through a laborious and expensive process.

I hear you man, my wife believes he won't sign the paper, and if he did she also thinks he would demand a huge sum of money and probably fuc_k it up anyway he could see fit. We considered this option, but don't think we will see results.

[Mario2008]

You could try sending an email in which you explain your case and state the information given by integrety legal and ask why you now have to produce a court document and the normal procedure is not followed.

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

You could try sending an email in which you explain your case and state the information given by integrety legal and ask why you now have to produce a court document and the normal procedure is not followed.

I do not think this would be wise. Consular Absolutism is the normal procedure in these matters. They have usual guidelines for different factual scenarios, but in this case the factual scenario would seem to dictate that the biological father either go to the Embassy or they proceed through the courts. Getting into an argument over "normal procedure" in this matter would be futile as the Consular Officer is well within his or her discretion in making this request.

Edited October 10, 2009 by DirectorIntegrityLegal

[Bladefire]

I have gone through this process as little as 3 months ago, i have all the documents here with me now and my tgf and her daughter are here with me in the UK now. All can be done at the local amphur - the easiest route is to offer the father a sum of money; i did, £50! He gave up all rights and signed the paperwork for the measly sum of £50. Try it! We had to also get the village boss to sign some other paper stating that basically the father is never around and that my missus takes care of everything, which she does, via me. Can be achieved and better than going through the long court procedure. Hope this helps.

[gburns57au]

Ask the father first......having a kid is sometimes a millstone around their necks and they are happy to lose it.

If he asks for money outside of fares and expenses to BKK, get your partner to ask him for an equal sum of money for back pay of child support.

My missus did this and the guy had no problem coming and signing the paperwork. She also had the support of his father which helped a lot.

Have you met the father and know of his history personally or are you relating second hand history.

Get his family to put pressure on him as well if you can.

You need to deal with the guy to achieve a speedy result....the only other option is to go through a laborious and expensive process.

I hear you man, my wife believes he won't sign the paper, and if he did she also thinks he would demand a huge sum of money and probably fuc_k it up anyway he could see fit. We considered this option, but don't think we will see results.

I think your wife needs to talk to him and find out what the playing field is and what he may or may not want.....you may get a surprise and at least you will know what the story is.

[7by7]

Exactly! It seems from your posts that neither you nor your wife have actually asked him. The worst that will happen is that he reacts as you suspect he might, in which case you have lost nothing; but you may find that he agrees to cooperate and that you are worrying over nothing.

[thaidiver]

Exactly! It seems from your posts that neither you nor your wife have actually asked him. The worst that will happen is that he reacts as you suspect he might, in which case you have lost nothing; but you may find that he agrees to cooperate and that you are worrying over nothing.

We have not contacted him at this point because shortly after we found out about this new bump in the road he came by my wife aunt's house and said he was going away to work for sometime. One, he has no cell-phone. Two, he has left Issan very recently to work on an intermittent construction project(somewhere near Ko Samui. Both of us just have a bad feeling about contacting him, that he will be hostile and try and leverage a large sum of money from us. Read my previous post about his observed behavior.