Bought A Car That Has Had It's Km Wound Back

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Hi there,

I recently bought a car that was advertised online as having just over 40,000km.

After purchasing it in Bkk and taking it back to my local garage (in the north) for a service, they told me that the car had more than 140,000km under its wheels.

I have spoken to the previous owner (a foreigner) who says he bought the car with the 40k on the clock - it must have been the owner before him who 'did the handiwork'. Of course, i have no way of knowing if that is the truth.

What, if anything, can I do to about this?

I paid 530k for the car that has been valued at around 420-450k due to the high mileage.

Would I have bought it had the genuine mileage been evident? No. Is it fair to request the difference in actual value and what I paid for it to be given to me? Is it reasonable to demand the return of all of my money?

In an ideal world, of course I would like my money back. However, i am not so naive as to think that's possible - the "sold as seen" principle for 2nd hand goods in full effect?

So, do I just 'suck it up' and chalk it up as another wonderful lesson learned living in LOS?

I'd be interested in your thoughts and experiences,

cheers

James

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Mods - Please can you insert the word "car" into the title?

Seems the only thing i can't edit!

cheers

[rixalex]

How infuriating for you. That sucks.

Before buying, did you not consider have a mechanic check it over?

Just out of interest, what car is it?

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Nah, I didn't. Just a visual once over. Car was clean and looked fine. I figured that with a car with 40k on it would be fine! Sucker.

Lesson learned for sure - if ever buying a 2nd hand car, no matter who from, have a pro check it over first!

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Too late but:::http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Buying-Hand-Car-t301998.html

[neverdie]

Are you saying that the farang owner bought the car with only 40k on it and only kept it for a short time?

Who was the owner of the vehicle when the vehicle was serviced with 140k on it, the farang?

[arjanjonw]

so sorry to hear that,

in answer to your question : Is it fair to request the difference in actual value and what I paid for it to be given to me? Is it reasonable to demand the return of all of my money?

YES it is reasonable and YES it is fair , but I do think that you have answered your own question in your post and the chances are very very slim. Maybe if we were in another country you could fight it but here I think you'll have no legal backing what so ever.

I cant imagine that you would have much luck going back to the seller and hoping for an ideal outcome. It would be so refreshing to think that they would just apologise and return your money, that really would be an ideal world.

How long did the previous owner have the car for? If it was a very short time I can imagine that the same thing happened to them and they sold it on. Maybe this is your only option to do the same, or keep the car. Selling the car on under the same description of 40k + km would be your choice, morally a difficult one that only you can answer.

good luck either way.

[YoungNRich12]

I would immediately demand all of my money back. If he refuses, go to the police and file a report against him and pursue it from there. I can't believe you would do anything else. If this farang can prove the other person is responsible, so be it, but until then, it is 100% his responsibility.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Hi,

I was told by the farang previous owner that it had 40k on it. He made out to me that he had bought it pretty recently, back in May this year, with just under 40k on it. Now, is this truthful or not? He could have been stitched up himself, found out and knowingly sold the car on to me, or he could have actually had it wound back himself... The guy is a member of TV and advertised here. I don't want to make it personal so I don;t see the point of disclosing any more details...

...turns out there was a sticker in car saying 'next service due at ...147XXX km' and I didn't notice it. When this was pointed out to the farang previous owner, he professed never having noticed it either!!!

<deleted> it, I was screwed over, but I like to think that the farang was an innocent party in it!

[YoungNRich12]

If you want to be a nice guy and give him a pass, that is your choice. Personally, I think its fishy that he buys the car and then decides to quickly resell it. Perhaps a coincidence or maybe he got taken first and then decided to take you. You could ask him to show you the paperwork of what he paid for it. Again, regardless of whether or not he was aware of the true mileage, he is still responsible to you. If Citibank calls me on the phone and tells me I owe 80,000 baht in bills I can't tell them to call Bob cause he owes me 100k or that I won't pay them until Bob pays me. The two sales of the vehicle are independent of one another. Anyways, you sound like a nice guy.

[hkt83100]

[...]

Welcome to Thailand

[moe666]

Why welcome to Thailand that kind of crap happens every where. Never buy a car 6 months after a flood alot of cars will show up that were salvaged from flood and transported to other parts of country.

In the states you can run the vin number and there should be a history of the car.

A good mechanic comes to mind.

[mca]

It's unlikely you'd have any legal recourse unless the vendor guaranteed in writing that the mileage was correct. Cant speak for nowadays but when I lived back home 15 years ago nearly all second hand car dealers (even the main agents) had stickers on their cars mileometers stating "This mileage cannot be guaranteed as correct" or words to that effect.

[katabeachbum]

Hi there,

I recently bought a car that was advertised online as having just over 40,000km.

After purchasing it in Bkk and taking it back to my local garage (in the north) for a service, they told me that the car had more than 140,000km under its wheels.

I have spoken to the previous owner (a foreigner) who says he bought the car with the 40k on the clock - it must have been the owner before him who 'did the handiwork'. Of course, i have no way of knowing if that is the truth.

What, if anything, can I do to about this?

I paid 530k for the car that has been valued at around 420-450k due to the high mileage.

Would I have bought it had the genuine mileage been evident? No. Is it fair to request the difference in actual value and what I paid for it to be given to me? Is it reasonable to demand the return of all of my money?

In an ideal world, of course I would like my money back. However, i am not so naive as to think that's possible - the "sold as seen" principle for 2nd hand goods in full effect?

So, do I just 'suck it up' and chalk it up as another wonderful lesson learned living in LOS?

I'd be interested in your thoughts and experiences,

cheers

James

Must say I fail to se how this has anything to do with living in LOS

Buying a secondhand car without bother to check if its still running original tyres, fan belts and brake pads could give you a car with fake milage anywhere in the world.

Not bothering to have it checked by maindealer and run the vincode in maindealers servicecomputer gave you a loss of 100k or so.

Since you now know its 140k km on it, you should make sure engine timingbelt/chain is up to date and replace autobox oil asap

If you can prove who cheated you, you may have a fraud case.

Sorry

[stingray]

Locals don't really care about the mileage, only about the year. I saw 03 Jazz with 200'000 km for about 420'000 Baht and 03 Jazz with 80'000 km for about 450'000 Baht. The reason why the first one was cheaper, because it had some marks on interior and body, but not about the mileage. I know it's crazy, but it it like this overhere. BTW You can't claim anything unless the former owner garranty in the contract about low the mileage and i think it'si not worth to go to get a courtdate (maybe in 2 years you will get one) and waist money for lawyer to try to get your money back. Just foreget it.

[culicine]

Locals don't really care about the mileage, only about the year. I saw 03 Jazz with 200'000 km for about 420'000 Baht and 03 Jazz with 80'000 km for about 450'000 Baht. The reason why the first one was cheaper, because it had some marks on interior and body, but not about the mileage. I know it's crazy, but it it like this overhere. BTW You can't claim anything unless the former owner garranty in the contract about low the mileage and i think it'si not worth to go to get a courtdate (maybe in 2 years you will get one) and waist money for lawyer to try to get your money back. Just foreget it.

This seems to bethe case here. Thais don't care a lot about mileage (probably due to the fact that clocking the car is so common). My car also has 140K but could pass for a 40K car. Best to look at the general condition and maintenance of the car rather than the mileage.

[ignis]

...turns out there was a sticker in car saying 'next service due at ...147XXX km' and I didn't notice it.

I would have thought that anyone trying to sell a car as low km reading would have changed the oil and put a new sticker to read 'next service due at ...40,XXX km'

As 'stingray' says there appears little difference in high and low km use. My own Jazz used only as a 2nd car I sold it when it was 4 years old, I had covered just under 26,000 km, it was unmarked full service history, spare wheel was unused etc, yet another Jazz same year. model and colour with 2 little scrapes on it and 168,000km was just 20,000 baht less..

[monty]

Seems partly having to do with the fact that overhauls are rather cheap over here.

Not sure on newish Japanese cars, but full overhaul on VW Caravelle auto gearbox = 25,000 Baht.

Top end overhaul of engine (same VW, 5cyl engine) also quoted at 25,000 Baht. To be expected at around 200,000 Km, after which at least another 150 to 200K km before full overhaul...

Do the same on those cars in the West and you'd rather bring the car to the wrecker! Labor intensive job so often not worth doing in the West. Not so in Thailand where the main cost is the spare parts...

[neverdie]

Hi,

I was told by the farang previous owner that it had 40k on it. He made out to me that he had bought it pretty recently, back in May this year, with just under 40k on it. Now, is this truthful or not? He could have been stitched up himself, found out and knowingly sold the car on to me, or he could have actually had it wound back himself... The guy is a member of TV and advertised here. I don't want to make it personal so I don;t see the point of disclosing any more details...

...turns out there was a sticker in car saying 'next service due at ...147XXX km' and I didn't notice it. When this was pointed out to the farang previous owner, he professed never having noticed it either!!!

<deleted> it, I was screwed over, but I like to think that the farang was an innocent party in it!

Well I would of thought it wouldnt be too hard to determine whether or not the farang was the owner when the vehicle was being serviced with the high km on it.

Thats a big difference in KM's 100,000 or so clicks, I cant see how you guys missed the sticker, anyway all said and done, how does the car go? What do you intend to do when you sell the car, disclose what you already know to any potential purchasers?

[stingray]

I bougth once a Toyota Crown, and because i living in Thailand for longtime i didn't even look at the Odo meter, Car drove perfectly, it was a 1994 model with a 3 liter 2JZ engine. At the home i saw 475'000 km on the ODO meter. Maybe already the second engine or what ever, but this says that sometime high mileage cars can be in very good shape. It's depend on WHO drove and take care the car before. Currently i drive a 74 oldsmobile (here in Thailand) and who knows how many km this car had done. It drive excellent because i take care and this is the most important thing, how the car was ben taken care of ,not about the mileage. It's important to NOT only drive the car, you have to hear and FEEL the car, when things getting bad. So you can safe a lot of money,

[MikeyIdea]

Sorry to hear about your experience, I hope it will make you feel better to hear that mileage doesn't matter that much in Thailand when it comes to determine the value of a car, overall condition is much more important.

Nothing to do that will win you anything, sue for piece of mind if you want, it will cost you more than you will even get back of course. You probably won't even win. And I have been here too long I suppose so I think a bit like the Thais by now - Why make trouble when it's your own fault, you should have checked BEFORE you bought

Another good think for your piece of mind. If the overall condition of the car is good, then the difference in price is nowhere near as high as you say

Edited November 5, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

If you want to be a nice guy and give him a pass, that is your choice. Personally, I think its fishy that he buys the car and then decides to quickly resell it. Perhaps a coincidence or maybe he got taken first and then decided to take you. You could ask him to show you the paperwork of what he paid for it. Again, regardless of whether or not he was aware of the true mileage, he is still responsible to you. If Citibank calls me on the phone and tells me I owe 80,000 baht in bills I can't tell them to call Bob cause he owes me 100k or that I won't pay them until Bob pays me. The two sales of the vehicle are independent of one another. Anyways, you sound like a nice guy.

This is not the west. That you can buy a car in the west without checking if mileage is true or not doesn't mean that it is common practice that you can do that here. Thai courts are practical and don't take decisions based on principals. Should a Thai court take into consideration that a farang used common practice in his home country when buying a car in Thailand? And with a sticker in the car stating the true mileage?

Sue if you want, you wouldn't win anyway. You must always take common practice where you are into consideration, for your piece of mind if nothing else

Edited November 5, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[jayjayjayjay]

Hi,

I was told by the farang previous owner that it had 40k on it. He made out to me that he had bought it pretty recently, back in May this year, with just under 40k on it. Now, is this truthful or not? He could have been stitched up himself, found out and knowingly sold the car on to me, or he could have actually had it wound back himself... The guy is a member of TV and advertised here. I don't want to make it personal so I don;t see the point of disclosing any more details...

...turns out there was a sticker in car saying 'next service due at ...147XXX km' and I didn't notice it. When this was pointed out to the farang previous owner, he professed never having noticed it either!!!

<deleted> it, I was screwed over, but I like to think that the farang was an innocent party in it!

What other details do you have on the car. There is still a case for miss printing the 147... as typo which should have read 47,000km given it may have had it's last service at 37,000km. A car of 147,000km is starting to look pretty tied. If it is pickup then it would be more likely to have done higher kilos if the car is under 4 years old, but in my experience, Thai's do not drive very far. I easily rake up 30,000 plus a year coz I enjoy driving. Most locals would not do 140,000km in 10 years.

So just throwing it out there. What model, what year? If the car is a later model with a digital odometer you are less likely to find tampering unless they have changed the entire digital dash.

[jayjayjayjay]

I bougth once a Toyota Crown, and because i living in Thailand for longtime i didn't even look at the Odo meter, Car drove perfectly, it was a 1994 model with a 3 liter 2JZ engine. At the home i saw 475'000 km on the ODO meter. Maybe already the second engine or what ever, but this says that sometime high mileage cars can be in very good shape. It's depend on WHO drove and take care the car before. Currently i drive a 74 oldsmobile (here in Thailand) and who knows how many km this car had done. It drive excellent because i take care and this is the most important thing, how the car was ben taken care of ,not about the mileage. It's important to NOT only drive the car, you have to hear and FEEL the car, when things getting bad. So you can safe a lot of money,

A Toyota Crown with a 2JZ, were these guys drifting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You still got it?

[stingray]

I bougth once a Toyota Crown, and because i living in Thailand for longtime i didn't even look at the Odo meter, Car drove perfectly, it was a 1994 model with a 3 liter 2JZ engine. At the home i saw 475'000 km on the ODO meter. Maybe already the second engine or what ever, but this says that sometime high mileage cars can be in very good shape. It's depend on WHO drove and take care the car before. Currently i drive a 74 oldsmobile (here in Thailand) and who knows how many km this car had done. It drive excellent because i take care and this is the most important thing, how the car was ben taken care of ,not about the mileage. It's important to NOT only drive the car, you have to hear and FEEL the car, when things getting bad. So you can safe a lot of money,

A Toyota Crown with a 2JZ, were these guys drifting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You still got it?

Had many Crowns in different ages overhere in LOS, never had any serous troubles. Still have one 92 model left with a 1JZ engine, in excellent condition. Basicly almost the best vehicles you can buy overhere, Very strong and reliable and RWD, this is important. They still have real chassis. They used so much steel in that time, that you could build 3 Jazzes.

[stingray]

Hi,

I was told by the farang previous owner that it had 40k on it. He made out to me that he had bought it pretty recently, back in May this year, with just under 40k on it. Now, is this truthful or not? He could have been stitched up himself, found out and knowingly sold the car on to me, or he could have actually had it wound back himself... The guy is a member of TV and advertised here. I don't want to make it personal so I don;t see the point of disclosing any more details...

...turns out there was a sticker in car saying 'next service due at ...147XXX km' and I didn't notice it. When this was pointed out to the farang previous owner, he professed never having noticed it either!!!

<deleted> it, I was screwed over, but I like to think that the farang was an innocent party in it!

What other details do you have on the car. There is still a case for miss printing the 147... as typo which should have read 47,000km given it may have had it's last service at 37,000km. A car of 147,000km is starting to look pretty tied. If it is pickup then it would be more likely to have done higher kilos if the car is under 4 years old, but in my experience, Thai's do not drive very far. I easily rake up 30,000 plus a year coz I enjoy driving. Most locals would not do 140,000km in 10 years.

So just throwing it out there. What model, what year? If the car is a later model with a digital odometer you are less likely to find tampering unless they have changed the entire digital dash.

I think it's wrong. Almost every holiday, locals drive to their home (somwhere in Isaan) and back. This is what counts up the mileage. Local Bangkokians maybe exepted.

[jayjayjayjay]

I bougth once a Toyota Crown, and because i living in Thailand for longtime i didn't even look at the Odo meter, Car drove perfectly, it was a 1994 model with a 3 liter 2JZ engine. At the home i saw 475'000 km on the ODO meter. Maybe already the second engine or what ever, but this says that sometime high mileage cars can be in very good shape. It's depend on WHO drove and take care the car before. Currently i drive a 74 oldsmobile (here in Thailand) and who knows how many km this car had done. It drive excellent because i take care and this is the most important thing, how the car was ben taken care of ,not about the mileage. It's important to NOT only drive the car, you have to hear and FEEL the car, when things getting bad. So you can safe a lot of money,

A Toyota Crown with a 2JZ, were these guys drifting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You still got it?

Had many Crowns in different ages overhere in LOS, never had any serous troubles. Still have one 92 model left with a 1JZ engine, in excellent condition. Basicly almost the best vehicles you can buy overhere, Very strong and reliable and RWD, this is important. They still have real chassis. They used so much steel in that time, that you could build 3 Jazzes.

Could not agree with you more. I have a rare AE86 1984 GT-Apex. Not build anywhere as heavy as the Crown, but built nicely, way ahead of there time with double overhead cams, fuel injection and ECU's. Not bad for little 4 pot Japan wagons of the mid 80's!!

Your Crown running a 2JZ would have had plenty of get-up-and-go.

[imaneggspurt]

How does the guy that informed you it has done another 100k know that ? , im not saying it hasnt but, after 35 years in the car trade ive had cars that have done 30k and looked like they did 130,.

Edited November 6, 2009 by imaneggspurt

[imaneggspurt]

"Clocking" is not illegal in thailand, i think you have no recourse, however that there was a sticker on the car displaying a "next service due " and you didnt see it you have some blame here, but, id call the seller, point this out and say im sorry this car is not " as advertised " and id like a refund please,.

[imaneggspurt]

It's unlikely you'd have any legal recourse unless the vendor guaranteed in writing that the mileage was correct. Cant speak for nowadays but when I lived back home 15 years ago nearly all second hand car dealers (even the main agents) had stickers on their cars mileometers stating "This mileage cannot be guaranteed as correct" or words to that effect.

That is correct, however the dealer is legally obligated to make enquiries as to the mileage indicated being correct,.this means writing to previous owners,if no reply as to authenticy the mileage has to be sold as "incorrect " to cover yourself, in the uk the trading standards will even procecute private sellers if these checks arent made and a"private" sells a clocked car, in thailand, god knows,....