George Bush motorcade

[Begs]

20 Mins ago i saw George Bush go by 20 metres from my balcony, we have had hundreds of police all week patrolling the area near where i live, roadblocks, checkpoints e.t.c., i must say one thing, the motorcade is an impressive sight, the Big Black four wheel drives with secret service agents in, windows open scanning the buildings on the route, scoped me too as i was on my balcony which is on the same level as the elevated road that the motorcade was on, Then the huge limo with the man himself in, a massive security operation indeed, must have involved thousands of people.

I dont know what it is like in Bangkok at the moment for security and police presence, but you wait till the day G W Bush arrives, then the real operation starts.

[Axel]

Begs, are you in Japan at the moment? As far as BKK Post said this morning G.W. will be having dinner with Koizumi tonight. Perhaps some little sushi, some sashimi and a tempura?

BKK is calm, but nervous. The guys in brown on every sub-soi of Sukhumvit, telling you "no right turn".

[pnustedt]

Then the huge limo with the man himself

Nah . . . that was Bud!

[Begs]

Yes Axel,

I am in Tokyo, been a lot of security this week, airport too was really hot, Bush arrived at Tokyo's other Airport, Haneda, which is not Miles outside the city like Narita.

It will be full security in a few days in Bangkok, but get a look at the motorcade if you can, its really impressive.

[Butterfly]

Got to see it once. Was very nice. Looked like a "Men in Black" ad

I wish I had a stinger missile to hit that SOB

[Axel]

Got to see it once. Was very nice. Looked like a "Men in Black" ad

I wish I had a stinger missile to hit that SOB

Careful, the MiB have software that rings all alarms at the word stinger. They will be in front of your house within minutes.

Aaahm, I said it before let a court decide and than off to Malaysia. One with the bamboo-cane for the next few years twice a week, I am sure Mahatir will do it himself.

[SoCal]

Bitterfly, If you have problem with US, I will let you try to take your frustrations out on me.

[chonabot]

Handbags at 10 paces....lets go girls!

 

[Rinrada]

what the wee meeting is all about..

Some of the smaller countries, notably Thailand and South Korea, would like to strengthen Apec's role in liberalising trade.

Thailand intends to propose that the deadline for full trade liberalisation within Apec for developing countries be moved forward to 2015.

But this summit is likely to see LITTLE CONCRETE  evidence of Apec's original role as the engine of trade liberalisation in the Pacific region.

and that as they say is it.......not much news in the world press....

A jolly by any other name is still a jolly..... but why not..

Big Sing krup

(thanks bbc)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3201744.stm

???

[OzzieMan]

The best motorcade will be when he arrives back in my home country Ozzie land after its all over

Tomato Fruit markets and egg producers will be having a free give away on the left hand side of the road sponsered by our labour party

and the liberal party will be giving out American flags

See how democratic us Ozzies are

and we all love something black and bushie don't we

[Nat]

don't forget the Australian Shooters Party hiding in the grassy knolls  

[francois]

I wish I had a stinger missile to hit that SOB

hey, butterfly, it's with this kind of words that someone could wake you up at 4am looking for your com ... asking a lot of questions ... no cafe or beer this morning  

[Butterfly]

Bitterfly, If you have problem with US, I will let you try to take your frustrations out on me.

no, not with the US, but only with this stupid government. I am still surprised (or maybe not) that people in the US were stupid enough to elect (did I just say elect ?) such a transparent president.

[Butterfly]

The best motorcade will be when he arrives back in my home country Ozzie land after its all over

Tomato Fruit markets and egg producers will be having a free give away on the left hand side of the road sponsered by our labour party

and the liberal party will be giving out American flags

See how democratic us Ozzies are

and we all love something black and bushie don't we

That's the spirit  :laugh:

[Axel]

Bitterfly, If you have problem with US, I will let you try to take your frustrations out on me.

no, not with the US, but only with this stupid government. I am still surprised (or maybe not) that people in the US were stupid enough to elect (did I just say elect ?) such a transparent president.

I have two good friends and business partners. One of Asian origin at the west coast, another one in 3rd generation in NYC, whose name in his own words, remind you of Pizza,  cannelloni or Sicily. Both took the stand, any word against G.W. is against USA. Took me a loooong time to convince them that we still can drink a beer or two together although I might not necessarily like Bush. Both my friends are extremely proud of their country, especially the one having arrived just 20 years ago and got a chance to adopt the nationality and by hard work being successful. He now accepts my opinion as well. No need to hit each others heads. Listen and accept different opinions.

One for Butterfly. The standard joke in the States for two years already, he cannot be "re"-elected, he never was. But this is not for me to say, it is an internal problem within the US-legislation, so I do accept G.W.B. is Pesident, I do not accept what he does on international stage that can be negative to my own well being.

[francois]

One for Butterfly. The standard joke in the States for two years already, he cannot be "re"-elected, he never was. But this is not for me to say, it is an internal problem within the US-legislation, so I do accept G.W.B. is Pesident, I do not accept what he does on international stage that can be negative to my own well being.

well said axel  ::

we may not like him, and so what? does it change anything?

I do not like the way things are launched internationaly, but again, what can I do to change this? vote different? sure!

anyway, it's all what's left for us ordinary citizens of any "so called" democratic country.

so, let's vote, express ourself, and hope that things won't change for worse  

[sam77]

So lets hope porn. star got "erected" in 2004

[Butterfly]

I have two good friends and business partners. One of Asian origin at the west coast, another one in 3rd generation in NYC, whose name in his own words, remind you of Pizza,  cannelloni or Sicily. Both took the stand, any word against G.W. is against USA. Took me a loooong time to convince them that we still can drink a beer or two together although I might not necessarily like Bush. Both my friends are extremely proud of their country, especially the one having arrived just 20 years ago and got a chance to adopt the nationality and by hard work being successful. He now accepts my opinion as well. No need to hit each others heads. Listen and accept different opinions.

Well, I am sorry to say that your 2 immigrant friends were either brainwashed and too stupid to think (does not mean they can't be successful) or were "hidding" their criticism from you. I know that most immigrants will not give away any of their criticism in front of "native US citizens" because they fear of the "native" incomprehension (and rightly so).

thanks for the joke, but I knew that one already.

Bush is a criminal and shouldn't even be in the WH. He has caused far more problems internally than internationally. There is a number of people I know in the US (native citizens) who are currently looking for a way out.

We all know there will not be another election in 2004 or after 2004. Bush will just need another 9/11 to suspend the election process and the Constitution. How convenient. You should know that these things have been discussed for years in the Pentagon. They have been looking for a way to turn the old USA into a Roman public. Iraq was the first invasion plan, be ready for Syria and Iran, because it will come soon as soon as the US has more troops available.

[ericsshop]

I only joined this forum yesterday and am rather addicted already spending most of the day reading posts from months ago.  I felt it was unwise to get into the discussion here for many reasons but will as I really cannot understand (or maybe I do) posts by some.

First just because someone likes GW and his policies does not make them stupid or brainwashed,  the just have an opinion as does anyone else.  Just because someone voices this opinon most certainly does not mean they are hiding their insecurities about GW or the US policy.  I can tell you first hand I know far more that say they are democrats and disagreed with the war to save the argument more often than disagree and say they did to save the argument especially overseas.

Second theres no need to call anyone stupid, a moron, a criminal etc because their view is different then yours.

Third, the conspiracy stuff is bizarre to say the least.  I mean "we all know there will not be an election in 2004" and this is due to some conspiracy by Bush, the republicans and/or the pentagon?  Yeah that will happen.

And the pentagon has been looking for years for a way to create a "Roman" type republic?  Not hardly.

One can have a civil discussion about various differences in beliefs and not stoop to out and out namecalling,  I mean if one is intelligent they can find another way to debate in a rational way.

One does not show their superiority over another by namecalling or irrational statements and misguided conspiracy theories.  

Most in the US do agree with Bush and his policy and why he has done what he did.  Alienating an entire nation and its people by saying such things doesn't help anything or make anyone feel better about themselves.  

Most of the things that are said about the Iraq goings on are in their face just admittingly wrong and irrational.  

First off Bush is fighting to make the entire 20 billion dollar aid package just that aid and not a loan or a grant as the democratic members of congress want.  Why isn't Bush going along with the liberal democrats on this if what he was truly after was this huge monetary gain?  

Second its said the US overthrew Iraq for its oil,  that would be, if true, the most bizarre thing anyone could do.  Why spend 200 billion dollars for the ability to buy oil when one could do so rather easily by just requesting the sanctions be lifted?   And if one were to think that the US is just going to out and out steal the oil they have left reality all together.

Third this idea that the US went into Iraq unilaterally is a lie for lack of a better word.  And when I here people say that going in without the Germans and the French was in fact going in alone makes me laugh.  Well thats saying that the majority of countries in Europe that did back the war are insignificant and the real Europe consists of the French and the Germans.  They are of no significance whatsoever, if one were to believe that then the conspiracy theories on the other side of the coin would hold more weight.   The truth is the US in Korea for example was almost the entire UN force and paid almost the entire amount of funds to fight it and still do.  This is one reason why many Americans myself included feel the need to get out of the UN as we always have to pay the overwhelming majority of the money.  Those are facts and can be easily accessed anywhere on the web.  So make-up of the Iraq force being overwhelmingly US is nothing new, its just people point it out now for political gain.

The conspiracy theory that many on the other side of the political argument to yourself feel that the French and the Germans are trying to take control of Europe for themselves.  I don't believe that conservative theory anymore than I believe your liberal theories about Bush.

The whole thing has just gotten out of hand and most people unfortunately on both sides of the coin (conservative and liberal) are creating an irrational debate.  

The truth is none of us really know any of the reasons why those who were for the war were and why those who were against it were.    Because of the huge arab populations both Germany and the French have maybe.  Them wanting to stay out of it because they did not wish to create any problems in their home countries within these polulations.  Which in my opinion is a extremely valid reason to stay out of it.

One could also say that the French, the Germans, the Russians and the Chinese were worried about the billion dollar contracts each had with Sadaam as well as the billions he owed each of these countries.  Those too I would say are valid points, but the arguments they made did not back up any of their valid points.

I could show statements made by Clinton, the majority of democratic congressman and the Europeans in the 1-2 years prior to the war saying the same thing what Bush said about Sadaam and Iraq, WMD's, al-queda etc.  Now they all backpeddle and say its not a reason to go to war more could have been the diplomatic arena.  Like what that hadn't been tried in the previous 13 years?  One could argue that 20 million lives would have been saved if Neville "We have peace for our time" Chamberlain and his European counterparts were more like Bush in the 30's.  Doesn't make them right although with hindsight even the French would agree.

This is my philosophy about leaders and just people in general like Sadaam and all of us if we admit it will agree.  There are truly good people in this world.  The people we have all known in our lives that are just so good at heart there is nothing you could do or say that would make them do something, illegal, immoral or hurtful.  They just don't have it in them.

Equally there are bad people in this world that no matter what you try to do in the way of rehabilitating them or talking to them is gonna help.  they are just plain bad, some plain evil.  I think if honest with ourselves we can all agree we have known both people in both categories, many of us in unfortunately in our own families, the proverbial "black sheep".

GW and many like myself 100% honestly believe that Sadaam fell into the latter category and something needed to be done for whatever reason.  My main reasons for agreement to the Iraq question have far more to do with the multitude of things he, his sons and his fellow Iraqi's did in the way of human rights, both to his own people and to others.  I mean did not the Kosovo thing happen for less?  Although I do agree that his threats in the biological and chemical arena were enough as well.  Irags porous borders, his ties with Ansar Islam, his sending payments to bombers families etc etc.  

One thing that if one is honest with themselves can agree with is that something with chemical and biological weapons was going on or why not let the inpsections just go on without all the BS.  One thing that should make that clear in all peoples minds is the simple fact that Sadam wasn't stupid, not by a longshot.  And he knew all to well that a war would be his downfall,  now put yourself in his shoes and think for a minute.  Here I am and I own an entire country literally, what I say goes.  What I want goes, all the money all the palaces all the power,  why give that up?  In the final hour if Sadaam really and truly had nothing to hide just to save all of this he would have thrown open the floodgates and let anyone look anywhere without hinderance or hesitaition.  When it came to shit or get off the pot one would have to say he would shit rather than getting off the pot as he had a lovely pot to sit on.  People like him crave power,  this is their gig this is what gets them off and when its all said and done, just as the Lybian tyrant did after he was personally targeted in a bombing raid he quit the BS as he realized it was far better to keep power and give up all the nonsense and the bombings.  

Nobody knows where the weapons are whether they went to Syria or are spread out across the desert in underground bunkers.  We all know he produced them then said I don't know how I got rid of them,  I have no proof but you can trust that I did.  I mean we found fighter jets hidden in underground bunkers that we previously knew nothing about until after the war. So in a country this vast it not would be difficult or unbelievable to hide a 2 car garage size bunker full of weapons or 20 closet size?  

We all have our opinions and can rationally have a discussion, but all the hate is unreasonable and unwarranted.  I grew up without a grandfather as one died in Normandy and the other in the Phillipines and for the longest time despised WWII and was totally irrational in my beliefs about why I felt we should not have gone and should had left Europe and Asia to their own devices.  But I grew and matured and understood.

I really don't need anybody to come back and say terrible things about me or my beliefs as it won't bother or make me have a ridiculous tit for tat namecalling session with anyone.  I believe everyone on both sides of the coin are inside good honest people and believe what they believe for good honest reasons and lets just leave it there.

[Bob Chittie]

Second its said the US overthrew Iraq for its oil,  that would be, if true, the most bizarre thing anyone could do.  Why spend 200 billion dollars for the ability to buy oil when one could do so rather easily by just requesting the sanctions be lifted?   And if one were to think that the US is just going to out and out steal the oil they have left reality all together.

Third this idea that the US went into Iraq unilaterally is a lie for lack of a better word.  And when I here people say that going in without the Germans and the French was in fact going in alone makes me laugh.  Well thats saying that the majority of countries in Europe that did back the war are insignificant and the real Europe consists of the French and the Germans.  

First answer: So you can control the oil and politics of a nation in the center of the Anti-US world. Not to mention the ability to create US bases in Iraq itself, within a short flight of anyone who might disagree with W.

Second answer: What were the ramifications for those countries who 'supported' Bush if they had snubbed their noses at the US? What are the benefits of having the US on your side? How many of these European countries actively sttod up and declared to the world that Saddam must go? It was Bush and Bush alone who got the party started. The countries who showed support did so out of their own interests or their own fears- of the US, not Iraq.

please don't tell me you think America went to Iraq out of the goodness of their hearts or to liberate the Iraqi people (DO they plan on liberating the Burmese any time soon?) or to fight terrorism. Those are the real conspiracy theories. But that's just my opinion.

[Axel]

Brainwashed I would not say, just admiring and not so much the president but the country and ALL that comes with.

Stupid? I never use the word although it springs to my mind when I see the one or other person. Migrating is one thing not easy and usually viewed by people from countries suppressed or not really accepted. A lot of people I know personally are Chinese holding "British" Hong Kong passports. They try to become US-citizens or Canadians, which is somewhat easier, as their "Hong Kong belonger ship does not even allow them to visit the UK without a visa. These guys have to make tests, know about the history of the USA,  geography, democracy etc etc and finally know more than the average "native US citizens".

Newly immigrants hiding their opinion? Yes. A good friend of mine who had all points in his favour to get the nationality refused to do so with one argument. "If I do it, I cannot express my opinion to you guys, because you will claim I am just naturalized not indigenous." Sound familiar? Well it was a German refusing to become Swiss. The problem is all over the world the same.

I am following the news around GWB since the Florida-"counting" and am certainly not impressed. The big advantage we have living in a democratic country, we can say so. In this board, in newspapers, on the street. I agree with Francois, nothing really will change, or won't it? Only read letters to the Bangkok Post editor and compare April/May to Sept./October 2003. The extreme voices in favour of Bush are gone, the voices that criminalized anybody else who did not agree to Gush or the Iraq invasion. Guess I am blue eyed even thinking that they now changed or listened to others. Our words in here will not make a change, but the sum of all words and opinions will. Democracy is slow, but I believe in its effects.

Butterfly, I do not believe 911 was the doing of anybody else but Bin Laden and I do not believe there will be another one to create an emergency situation. The political fronts and the democratic machinery are too strong to lift the Constitution.

Otherwise I might concede. I said it before at least since March. There is an international Criminal Court in The Hague in Holland.

They do have the power top indict for any criminal actions. The problem, Bush's administration was the first to refuse acceptance of the court.

Why Bush (and Rumsfeld etc) pushed so hard to invade the Iraq? Who knows. But all arguments presented afterwards do not make sense. WMD? Cannot be found. Hanns Blix said it before and was stopped to further inspect. Saddam's regime? Could have been done 10 years ago. Oil? No, there is not enough compared to the costs to be expected. Saddam's connection to bin Laden and ultimately to 9/11? Plain nonsense and even Bush retracted from this idea implanted by ??

Europe assisting Bush? Sure, Tony Blair and I believe he regrets it by now. Spain, Poland and a few more. Bush tried and partially succeeded to separate the EU, dividing in "old" and "new" and than dividing the "old" in "for" and "against". France for sure is not helping the USA for reasons given by Mr. Bush before the attack even if called ungrateful. Germany was (is?) traditionally a close ally

of the USA but this time did not go along as expected. I dare say it was a verbal mistake by Schroeder during his election campaign. After having said once, he will not join the US, with or without UN-support, he had no way to change around, so he was stuck, but won the elections, which hardly anybody had expected. Especially France had big economic interests in Iraq, running now a chance to lose this. First they could not be paid for embargo-reasons, now they run the risk of losing it all for not joining Bush.

The UN is slow, chiefly because too many members' interests must be taken care of before finding a resolution. GW should have listened to the UN-body, at the right time put the forces under blue caps and everything would have been fine. Agreed, majority of the forces would have been GIs under blue helmets but Bush would have been the hero he wants to be so desperately.

The other member nations would have despatch contingents of soldiers, again under blue helmets.

France and Germany leading the EU? No way. I watch both countries trying to integrate although discussions on participation make sense. Expect the EU to have a population of 500 million people (USA 280 million) including UK 60, France 60, Germany 82. They want to have more democratic voting power than, let's say Poland (not yet member) with 39 million, Spain with 39 or Austria with 8 million. GNP, financial powers goes with the population. Military spending? By far less than the USA, one might argue this should be changed, most Europeans do not think so, claiming their military forces are big enough to defend themselves and they do not want to attack other countries, having enough problems to be solved at home.

Costs. I said this before. Let the UN pay for everything and have the contributions by each nation adjusted accordingly, but make sure that each nation actually pay the agreed sums. Now we have the situation again, Bush is trying to get help and financial support. I am waiting what he will say while in Bangkok. Also have a look on who finally paid for his father's Iraq-war.

Last but not least, GWB attacked, invade and occupied Iraq against the voices of too many in this world. OK, the peoples voices are not heard. But he went claiming defense without an approval by the UN. Attacking without being attacked and lying to the American people and to the world. People around the globe want to see him marked as a criminal for this. Even here in Thailand, albeit the group who wants to have him indicted agreed to take no action whatsoever, while he is here as guest of H.M.

Personally, I feel sorry for the American people to have this president and I feel sorry for the money waisted which could have been used to make the US better. He will not be put to the ICC in the Hague whose competency he anyway did not accept but I believe in 2004 and the elections that will come. The voters should realize that the president is the highest servant of the nation and should ask them selves "did he serve us well?"

Terrorism is a horrible thing of our times. It did exist, however, before and will in the future. Let the nations fight it together, but not by one nation attacking another one. (Syria, N. Korea?) And don't let GWB run to do more attacks, which have been done for his own interest, only, not for the good of the world.

btw: Sorry, this got long, but I just hear from my wife that she is stuck in downtown Bangkok and traffic not moving at all, GWB is in town....

[ericsshop]

Thanks for being civil Bob,

As I said in my original post the US stealing or as you said "controlling" the oil is a grasp as something other than reality.  There is no way that the governments of the world let alone the opposition party in the US would allow this to happen.  Its a baseless argument for many reasons.  If you think that for one minute anyone in the US would allow GW to steal (what else could controlling it mean in this instance) the oil from Iraq myself included without raising all kinds of #### is sadly mistaken.  

That Americans and as I said firstly and most importantly the opposition party as well as his own party would allow him to put the US in the history books as nothing better than a criminal state guilty of such blatant theft in the 21st century is ludicrous and I totally believe you do not truly believe there is anyway this could come to pass.  All countries, the US for what they stole from the Indians, the European colonial govt's for what they stole from pretty much the entire world all have alot to be ashamed of.  But in the 21st century?    Its an argument that originated within the Arab community and is grasped upon by conspiracy theorist.  The reasons why it could never happen are far to numerous to elaborate.  

Second the idea that anyone including myself that is 100% behind the Iraq war thinks that the US will be able to have bases in Iraq or want to considering the ramifications is mistaken.  Americans and GW are not foolish enough to believe that anything such as that could follow this war not before it happened or after.  I mean are we considered that naive that we haven't the foresight or the intelligence to believe that we could do such a thing or it would be in our best interest to do so?  The terrorism possibilities alone are frightening to think of, the US overthrowing a Arab gov't and putting bases on its soil, its preposterous.  

Why do that I might ask when there are countries in the region that we could have done so without having to go to war and not have had to spend 200 billion doing it.  We could have just given another country the money, matter of fact far less.  

And as well to "control" the gov't?  That to is far stretched,  the UN is in the game and the US govt has asked the UN to help the Iraqi's handle their elections and help the Iraqi's write a new constitution and we will back out of it as we have.  The US is to have zero to do with it,  thats what Powell meant when he said "The Iraqi governing council is to come up with their own draft by December" and as said the UN has been asked to totally handle it.

The thought that the US gov't is going to control anything or does is a farce.  We took tons of heat for helping form the governing council taking into respect that everyone had to be included, the Kurds the Shites people from the north people from the south women etc etc.  What the heck else were we to do?  It was a country that had been under the thumb of someone else for nearly half a century you can't just say "ok, Sadaams gone here you go have a good life".   Or ok,  lets have elctions in a week or a month or 6 months, you guys get out there and start campaigning.  And to say they have no control,  the Turk troops issue which was pretty much solved by the Turks yesterday saying they would abide by the Iraqi councils wishes and not send troops shows they have control.  They have been accepted by the muslim countries as legitimate until a new consitution is written and elctions are held shows they are in control, although many in the world tried to theorize that they were US puppets and would do whatever they wanted.   And you wait till they get their new govt and the oil starts flowing even more rapidly and watch what power they wield.  This is the 21st century and their oil will make them second in energy power only to the Saudis and don't think they don't know it.  To many places to sell that oil and too many watching whats going down to have any BS go on with that.   Yes if Americans and GW had any retarded plans to be the big dog in Iraq before the war which they didn't,  they to were sadly mistaken.  But something tells me there were many including Powell and Rice that would have smacked GW and told him to wake up he must be dreaming if ever thought about anything like that.

I am open to listening to anyone else's suggestions, anyones as is Bush.  But nobody had any anywhere in the world.  They just said the Iraqis should have control, the French were total asses saying hand it over now or in 2 months etc.  To whom I might ask?  Did they have any ideas, did the UN, did the Germans?  

And the ramifications the European countries feared from the US does not hold water do to the fact the majority have little trade with the US and faced losing far more from their EU brethren in hopes of becoming a part of it etc etc,  thats a fact.   And those that did have anything to "fear" as you say it with bad relations are many of the countries that did oppose it that had nothing happen by way of GW or the gov't.  Mexico is a prime example, they had far more to lose if GW was gonna play a tit for tat game but they didn't go along with the war and nothing happened, zero, nada.  The French they paid the wrath of the US consumer that had every right to choose not to buy their goods and still don't.  The French were the only ones that saw the wrath of an angry America and it wasn't the gov't that did it.

This has more than Iraq to do with it and the American people have a long dislike and distrust of the French and their ungreatful nature (except for the intellectul elitists).  First thing that comes to mind is when the French almost imediately after the Germans surrendered called in the head the the US armed forces and said we want you to leave French soil yesterday, for lack of a better word.  The head of the Army asked him if he also meant the near 100,000 that were buried there from the war that just ended as well as the first world war.  

And I did in my first post give you the reasons I and most Americans did want Bush to do exactly as he did and it had nothing to do with the your "please don't tell me's".   As I said I could show you where Clinton (both president and senator) said the same exact things about Iraq almost verbatum in 2000, 2001 and 2002 as well as the overwhelming majority of the opposition party as well as countries that opposed the war.  The big debate was all about what to do about it and if containment was enough.   And as said my own personal feelings did fall in the because he is a worthless teror master of his own people and if the junta in Burma were in anyway remotely similar in their actions on such a scale as Saddam I would be right in the corner of whoever was trying to rally the world powers to take them out.  But they are not and the comparison of the two cannot be made in a similar light.

Thanks for keeping it cool and rational it's apreciated.  Your post does knock me off my feet though as the things that are said by the socialist govt's in Europe and the media is done I know for politics sake and one knows (especially as said from their previous statements) that they don't mean it.  The media just throwing out every theory in the woodwork just to stir something up as it gets viewers, readers etc.  But hearing those from other countries say some of the things that they honestly believe about the GW and what the US citizens expect and would put up with blows me away.  I honestly now do believe that butterfly yourself and others  deep down feel GW and Americans are really that sinister at heart or that unintelligent that we would accept or could believe some of the things you say.  It is very eye opening to say the least I am truly dumbfounded.

We shall all see when 2004 comes to an end and as most Americans believe Iraq is in control of its own destiny.  But I am sorry, to do so as the French and Kofi Anan are requesting in a few months at most is silly.  

At this point the UN while voting for the UN resolution, but vowing to not lend a hand in writing a constitution, helping form and oversee elections,  train a single soldier, or policeman shows that its all about politics and nothing else.  If I cannot be in charge of what I want I won't be in charge of anything that makes one think of preschoolers rather than world leaders.  

My argument on this point is that if they help build or train (they have vowed to not do either) the army,  to build or train a police force (they have vowed to do neither), to help write a constitution or help with forming and overseeing an election is so that they do not take away their arguments and do not end just such conspiracy theories.   And has alot to do with upcoming US elections and a hope that a more socialist minded Pres will come in and go along with the iternational court etc etc and pull the US farther into the direction of socialist Europe.

Thanks again for being civil, we can all disagree and be very forceful and passionate about our arguments and not stoop to acting like children and not make someone afraid to give his point of view for fear of being viewed as uncivil, or criminal or stupid.  

I am a 50/50 Jeffersonian as they say,  I believe in 50% of what he did while feeling the other 50% is a load of rubbish, but one thing I firmly agreed with.  That one needed to debate without such wild confrontation as it did neither party any good.  He hated it so much he refused to have opposing memeber of congress over to dine on the same evening as they would get into such passionate often near violent screaming matches.  Behind the scenes he could be an SOB and an ought and ought liar, but in personal discourse he was a cool as a cucumber or wanted nothing to do with it.  Amazing man, so amazing that all political parties in the US claim him as their own with  when really he belonged to none exclusively but to all.  He never said it, but in my opinion I have always thought of him whenever I hear "mai phen rai".

[Butterfly]

ericsshop , despite you being civil (and I agree with this concept here), I find your arguments inarticulate, biased, borderline simple-minded, and dillusional. I apologize if I may sound too direct but this is how I feel after I read your "long" post.

If you think Bush went to Iraq for other reasons than oil, then you are dillusioning yourself. If Bush had the guts to say before the war he was after the oil, I could have respected that, but that lying SOB was too "coward" to do that. He is a life long coward anyway so it shouldn't be a surprise.

The arguments you put forward is total trash and are just spin from the GOP. You are just repeating what you are seeing on Faux news. It reads like a script. This alone shows here your inability to develope a proper judgement on this issue.

As counting on the American people to "wise" up and do the proper thing in 2004, another 9/11 will just do enough to seal

that little doubt. The election will be suspended. Already we have witnessed the limitation of the Constitution when an election "fraud" was conducted in broad daylight, don't think for a minute it would be that hard to repeat the same thing for "suspending" the Constitution. The American people as sheep as they are, will take it as it is, as long as they have NASCAR and Oprah showing on TV. Take that away and you will have a riot.

Bush is behind 9/11 directly or indirectly. He is responsible. Either by negligence (I know he was on vacation blah blah blah, he couldn't have known blah blah blah, he was on his PlaySation blah blah blah) or by knowing it will help him to put in place those grand "NeoCon" plans for the 21st Century. Don't believe me ? go the official NeoCon website and read their manifest. They are all dreaming of a new "Roman Empire" withing the US and they are not even ashamed to say it in public. Plainly disgusting and distasteful. This is exactly how the Nazi party got into power. Use the partriotism BS to hide a nationalistic agenda and to silence the opposition. History repeats itself again.

I am not going to respond to your 12yr old arguments because there are too "simplistic" to even be granted an answer. If you are posing yourself these questions, it's time for you to learn how to read real books, and not cartoons. Sorry again to be so "frank" but your arguments are extremly "naive" to say the least.

Bob and Axel, good start.

[ericsshop]

Bob you are a person with some serious issues, and to argue with you would be pointless.  I feel pity for your more than anything else, take care of yourself.  I mean that, really, all jokes aside.

[ericsshop]

Sorry Bob I was speaking of butterfly in my previous post,  I was blown away by his post and a bit dazed for a moment to say the least.  Wow is all I can I say still at the moment.

[tutsiwarrior]

ericsshop...your long winded posts are boring propaganda...remarkable that you arrived on this forum just before Dubya's arrival.

I'm an American too, but to use a british phrase 'hop it, mate' and go back to your office in Langly...

[bsross]

Hi All:

A debate usually works by putting forth points and refuting other people's statements.  'Your ideas are boring crap' really does not offer much to the debate.  It does, however, sound an awful lot like 'I cannot think of anything intelligent to say back'.

Now let me pre-empt any angry responses to my post:  Your ideas are boring  &worthless trash, too stupid to warrant a response.

Cheers,

Bryan

[tutsiwarrior]

But...Bryan...I just wanted to indicate that these forum editorials have appeared just prior to APEC. Given that the usual chat line reader attention span is quite short what is the purpose of a detailed defense of current US foreign policy if not for topical propaganda purposes?

You sit in the same office as eric?

[mrvietnam2001]

If voting could actually make changes, it would be made illegal

Russell Means

American Indian

Gentleman

Libertarian Candidate for President

http://www.russellmeans.com

Mr Vietnam  :cool:

[Butterfly]

Sorry Bob I was speaking of butterfly in my previous post,  I was blown away by his post and a bit dazed for a moment to say the least.  Wow is all I can I say still at the moment.

Sorry that your little "closed mind" got blown away by the obvious. yes arguing with people like you is pointless because they only listen to "simplistic" propaganda. If you can't go beyond that, then indeed you don't deserve the rights that the US Constitution has granted you and suspending the Constitution shouldn't change a thing for you.