Us Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act – Hr 3933

[jazzbo]

does anybody know the exact language of the bill

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3933/text

[OriginalPoster]

The Thai banks have enough problems. If there are exceptions, good, but that is overhead for the foreign banks to know about US regulations and to enforce them. It is outrageous to make them do that. ACA calls that a kind of IMPERIALISM and I agree with them. US laws should stop at our borders, that's what normal countries do. Like ACA fears, they may just decide to not do business with ANY of us. This is a real danger. ACA isn't a fly by night blog, they know what they are talking about. Even if some Thai banks cut us off and some don't, that would still represent a major inconvenience for those of us banking with banks that cut us off.

Does ACA have any political influence?

[gregb]

I don't think that using a 2nd passport is going to work very well. You are a still a US citizen and subject to the tax laws. A second passport is the kind of thing the 'big fish' would use and that's a net I wouldn't want to get caught in.

You are, sure, but that isn't the problem. The key here is the bank. If you present them with a passport that isn't from the US, then from their perspective they do not need to deal with extra paperwork to report your account.

For most of us, I don't really see what the problem is. A pain in the behind, yes. Scary, a little. Tax-wise for me, it's nothing. Do others have reason to be concerned?

I think the big concern is that banks will simply be unwilling to assume the extra headache associated with these restrictions, and simply close all accounts belonging to Americans. Alternatively, the banks could impose hefty fees on all Americans for the privilege of dealing with this new requirement.

This is all speculative at this time to be sure, but it does make me very nervous. I definitely don't like the direction this law is taking. I can't see anything good coming from it.

[Jingthing]

The Thai banks have enough problems. If there are exceptions, good, but that is overhead for the foreign banks to know about US regulations and to enforce them. It is outrageous to make them do that. ACA calls that a kind of IMPERIALISM and I agree with them. US laws should stop at our borders, that's what normal countries do. Like ACA fears, they may just decide to not do business with ANY of us. This is a real danger. ACA isn't a fly by night blog, they know what they are talking about. Even if some Thai banks cut us off and some don't, that would still represent a major inconvenience for those of us banking with banks that cut us off.

Does ACA have any political influence?

I can't answer that but I doubt they have the clout to stop this bill. I don't know of any other lobbying organization for our concerns, do you?

Of course, the concern for most of us unless we are tax cheaters or haven't been reporting our accounts to treasury is that the Thai banks will simply choose not to do business with us anymore. Why should they be responsible for enforcing US law? The other concern I have is the language about 30 percent tax withholding, what if the Thai banks interpret that to mean they must freeze 30 percent of the money in our SWIFT transfers (see Post 7), Thai based deposits, etc., etc.? Paranoid? Perhaps. But the concern about not doing business with us is legitimate.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Or you can do the easy option and move back to the US or have a non US citizen put the LOS account in their name. Sure you would find lots of volunteers. Of course you can do nothing and hope for the best.

Those of us using Thai bank accounts for Thai visa qualification would be SOL.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[OriginalPoster]

The Thai banks have enough problems. If there are exceptions, good,

Does ACA have any political influence?

I can't answer that but I doubt they have the clout to stop this bill. I don't know of any other lobbying organization for our concerns, do you?

No, I don't. On the surface, it sounds like a tall order for any organization of expats to exert much political influence not matter how well organized they are. Since members of congress are elected state-by-state and only a small percentage of any given state's voters are going to be expats, they generally can ignore expat concerns without suffering any political consequences. About the only way that I could imagine expat concerns carrying any weight with US congressman could be if big US-based multinational companies leaned on them and made the case that particular policies were bad for business.

Edited November 9, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Thats right Jing and we could no longer direct debit some of our bills, nor could we have a Thai credit card.

[SurfRider]

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"So you put it in your US bank account, that's nice but how does it do you any good in LOS? Since you have no bank account you cannot do any transactions"

Simply do cash ATM withdrawals from your U.S. account ( still free of the 150 Baht Thai ATM Usury Fee at AEON ATMs ) -- Keep the cash in your safe and dispense as needed -- I've been doing it for 5 years.

Your Thai bills don't NEED to be paid out of YOUR account -- I can see a whole cottage industry of enterprising Thais offering to pay bills for Farangs out of their accounts ( for a "modest" fee of course )

For what it's worth:

The HR-3933 bill will go through at least three more re-writes and three more votes, possibly more of each before it has any chance of becoming law. Many who are very close to the process are speculating that one of the future votes will kill it entirely.

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[jazzbo]

Good one Kuhn SurfR -- and if the Bill is passed you will have to tell the Thai Girls that you can no longer do ATM transfers from your Thai bank account to her Thai bank account... Maybe I'll tell them that the bill has ALREADY passed.

Edited November 9, 2009 by jazzbo

[PanamaPablo]

Yes indeed this is a bad day for anyone one anywhere in the world. The FACTA is so encompassing that it leaves nothing untouched. However there are several ways that expats can remove themselves from these issues. You have to really understand what is determined as a Financial Institution, Trust and Corporation. Depending on the way in which they are structured. And if you are like me, I have not had any of my funds held in bank accounts since the introduction of Patriot Act Version 2 2005.

If people are interested we can provide full banking and credit and debit card services, as well as second passport opportunities to interested parties. This can help change you ID status at a Foreign or Offshore Bank. There are no reporting requirements for non USA Citizens. Stop holding the stars and stripes up to be the best thing since sliced bread. Get a new citizenship.

The 30% withholding tax is not a gimmick it is a mean spirited way of making the worlds banking system are a part of the Imperial USA.

However there are always a way around every single law ever written. It must contain exit clauses within the laws, otherwise the law is illegal and comes under UN regulations relating to Slavery. Trust me on this I worked in the Australian Federal Government for ministers and I have seen the same thing happen time and time again. Here is a new law, states one thing, then allows you to do the opposite when you are aware of how to do it. Again people need to read the laws, and see if it applies to them.

Now as most expats me included decided to leave our country for whatever reasons, there are many ways to ensure you can still have bank accounts, to deposit your money and have cards and the ability to access your funds. Now many people do not realise that once your accounts are out of US Dollars, the US has little control over the actual account. Read the Patriot Act for further references to this.

So if you open an account through a NON FINANCIAL INSTITUTION, and they bank with a good bank you can then have your money placed into their accounts and you access it. We have already got such a structure in place and have many clients world wide.

I can assure you that the governments around the world will not want to become de facto US Policemen. Banks will close your accounts and get rid of a US Citizen when the compliance and reporting requirements are over the top. This is one of those over the top Laws requiring the banks and Fin Institutions to become the Policeman for the IRS. It has happened here in Panama, Latvia, Cayman Islands Nevis and many other tax havens. Now the government in the US has seen reason to pull all banks into their orbit, but again only when the funds are in USD and the account is held by a US Passport Holder. So there are many ways to avoid these stupid laws. Get a new passport and keep your US Passport for travel and us a second ID or Passport from another country that does not have tax treaties with the country you live in.

Let me know if you are interested and we will provide you with the information you require

Panama Pablo

[OriginalPoster]

Yes indeed this is a bad day for anyone one anywhere in the world. The FACTA is so encompassing that it leaves nothing untouched. However there are several ways that expats can remove themselves from these issues. You have to really understand what is determined as a Financial Institution, Trust and Corporation. Depending on the way in which they are structured. And if you are like me, I have not had any of my funds held in bank accounts since the introduction of Patriot Act Version 2 2005.

If people are interested we can provide full banking and credit and debit card services, as well as second passport opportunities to interested parties. This can help change you ID status at a Foreign or Offshore Bank. There are no reporting requirements for non USA Citizens. Stop holding the stars and stripes up to be the best thing since sliced bread. Get a new citizenship.

The 30% withholding tax is not a gimmick it is a mean spirited way of making the worlds banking system are a part of the Imperial USA.

However there are always a way around every single law ever written. It must contain exit clauses within the laws, otherwise the law is illegal and comes under UN regulations relating to Slavery. Trust me on this I worked in the Australian Federal Government for ministers and I have seen the same thing happen time and time again. Here is a new law, states one thing, then allows you to do the opposite when you are aware of how to do it. Again people need to read the laws, and see if it applies to them.

Now as most expats me included decided to leave our country for whatever reasons, there are many ways to ensure you can still have bank accounts, to deposit your money and have cards and the ability to access your funds. Now many people do not realise that once your accounts are out of US Dollars, the US has little control over the actual account. Read the Patriot Act for further references to this.

So if you open an account through a NON FINANCIAL INSTITUTION, and they bank with a good bank you can then have your money placed into their accounts and you access it. We have already got such a structure in place and have many clients world wide.

I can assure you that the governments around the world will not want to become de facto US Policemen. Banks will close your accounts and get rid of a US Citizen when the compliance and reporting requirements are over the top. This is one of those over the top Laws requiring the banks and Fin Institutions to become the Policeman for the IRS. It has happened here in Panama, Latvia, Cayman Islands Nevis and many other tax havens. Now the government in the US has seen reason to pull all banks into their orbit, but again only when the funds are in USD and the account is held by a US Passport Holder. So there are many ways to avoid these stupid laws. Get a new passport and keep your US Passport for travel and us a second ID or Passport from another country that does not have tax treaties with the country you live in.

Let me know if you are interested and we will provide you with the information you require

Panama Pablo

So what's the primary goal of this service that you are offering? Is to primarily to allow US expats to avoid paying taxes on their investment earnings or is it mainly to protect the privacy of their banking records?

Edited November 17, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[SurfRider]

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"Let me know if you are interested and we will provide you with the information you require"

Can you post some additional data on whatever organization you're representing?

In other words, who is the "we" you're referring to?

Any references, past history, etc.?

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[Mrjlh]

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"Let me know if you are interested and we will provide you with the information you require"

Can you post some additional data on whatever organization you're representing?

In other words, who is the "we" you're referring to?

Any references, past history, etc.?

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On the face of it....sounds like this is why Congress is writing the law. Just who is "we". When people give you a great description of how they can help you but don't come out straight away and say this is "who we are", 99% of the time it's a scam. Buyer beware.

[Naam]

Now the government in the US has seen reason to pull all banks into their orbit, but again only when the funds are in USD and the account is held by a US Passport Holder.

this information is of course = and does not add credibility to your other claims. banks who have the status of "qualified intermediary" (most banks are nowadays QIs) will report to the IRS on form 1099 any income no matter in what currency that income was achieved and that applies to capital gains too. this is nothing new and the procedure has been carried out since years. as a former "U.S. person" i don't theorise but speak of personal experience.

[jazzbo]

Kicking and screaming all the way...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/18/business...ml?ref=business

[rabcbroon]

There will be a big rush of US passport holders getting a second passport to use for their banking. I think perhaps Uruguay, anyone have any ideas on this?

I don't think Uruguay sells second passports. Dominica does but its expensive. Knowing the feds they are probably watching this too, "escaping from America" is harder than ever! And wealthy people probably already know that Americans who are deemed to give up citizenship for tax purposes are still fully liable for US tax (yes this is a separate but related thing from using second passports).

http://www.goccp.com/ENG/second-passport/2...nd_Passport.htm

People must begin to realize that the days of being free range are coming to an end. This new measure is just another way of making people return to their respective farms. (I am sure the EU wil follow suite)

[SurfRider]

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"On the face of it....sounds like this is why Congress is writing the law. Just who is "we". When people give you a great description of how they can help you but don't come out straight away and say this is "who we are""

I don't disagree with you, but I suspect the real reason why Congress has come up with this bizarre requirement is because they're a bunch incompetent bumbling idiots who simply didn't even consider the unintended consequences, nor did they care.

Charlie Rangel, the Chairman of the Finance Committee stated: "This bill offers foreign banks a simple choice. If you wish to access our capital markets, you have to report on U.S. account holders. I am confident that most banks will do the right thing. . ."

Rangle is under investigation himself for serious ethics violations and alleged evasion of taxes involving overseas investments.

Examples:

Rangel was accused of failing to report income from the rental of a villa he owns in Punta Cana in the Dominican Republic...

In September 2008 Rangel paid back taxes of $10,800, owed from rental income on his Dominican villa. Rangel acknowledged that he had failed to declare $75,000 in rental income from his beachfront villa on his tax returns...

Congress asked the House Ethics Committee to look into Rangel's defense of a tax shelter loophole that allows tens of millions of dollars in tax breaks for a company which has donated $1 million to the City College of New York school named after Rangel; under the loophole approved by Rangel's Ways and Means Committee...

On September 24, 2008, the House Ethics Committee announced an investigation into Rangel's alleged failure to report hundreds of thousands of dollars in rental income or pay taxes on a beach rental property in the Dominican Republic, allegedly living in multiple rent-stabilized apartments in New York City while claiming his Washington, D.C. home as his primary residence for tax purposes, alleged use of congressional stationery to solicit donors for a public policy institute in his name at City College, and other alleged questionable activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Rangel

And on and on it goes . . .

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