This concept of "face"

[Pepe']

I allways thought that no where could be more "plastic/silicone" than here in southern California.

The weather is great but the people are about as foney, superficial and materialistic as it gets here in the USA.

However since I have shifted from being a tourist to trying to begin to conduct business and "socialize" in Thailand I find that Thais give the the Native Southern Californian here in Southern Cal. a run for their money.

I thought I understood this concept of face.  I have lived in Japan for two years. Traveled through China and extensively throughout SE Asia and India as well as the Phillipines.

However, and no offense, I have never seen such importance put designer labels, driving luxory cars or just doing as much as possible to have a "bigger Face."

I believe I am learning to navigate around it but any additional

perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Is it as prominent in the younger generation?

Is it getting more or less important?

Here in So. Cal.  the more casual you are the better.  Golf shirt and dockers are considered not only acceptable but cool and totaly casual for many business situations.

I even see patients often with tee shirt and jeans on in my own office.  They love it.

At the hospital most were shirts and ties but you can do the golf shirt and dockers thing with your lab coat.

At a party you can have people in a tuxedo having cocktails with someone in cut off jeans, tee shirt and beach sandles.

Usually its totally cool unless it's a designated formal affair.

Howcome everything must be a certain way in Thailand?

Why are you judged so intensely by what you ware?

Good Health, Pepe'

[markt]

I was sitting in my mates bar and one of his bar girls came to work with another girl.  The new girl wanted a job.  She said she had not worked in a bar before.  She was dressed in baggy jeans and scruffy t-shirt.  My mate gave her a job.

I went back into that bar a few of days later and asked my mate how the new girl was doing?

Oh, she's already been taken a couple of times, he said.

First thing she bought was a mobile phone.

Same the world over , i suppose.  Young girls want the latest fashions, whether or not they can afford them.

[sbk]

Actually, I got the impression Pepe was talking about more than young girls. I don't know, face has always been important but I think its link to rampant consumerism is fairly recent, at least down here where I live. Ten years ago, it was important that you wear nice, clean clothes, smile nicely and behave politely. Now, people are in hock up to their eyeballs so they can drive around in a new Honda CRV. My husband is actually criticized for not buying a new vehicle (our pick up is 11 years old! gasp!) never mind that there is nothing wrong with it and it doesn't look old, it is old.

I think face is more than just what car you drive and what mobile you own but it is certainly turning more that way as time goes by. Some might put it down to "western cultural imperialism" etc etc. But I think it is more than that. I look at all the fat children about these days and I think it is more a case of the parents not having much when they were kids and wanting their children to have everything they were denied. I think everyone needing a new car, designer clothes, expensive mobile, is just like that fat kid, stuffing his face with crisps and packaged sweets.  So, Pepe, to answer at least one question, face is more than just what stuff you have, it also how you behave and how you appear. Anyway, Bangkok may be completely different, I suspect the changes we are experiencing down here are old hat for the big city types, everything comes a little slower and a little later in rural thailand.

[Pepe']

sbk,

Yes you are correct.  I did mean more than the young girls.  I understand and agree with your assesment of accelerated consumerism, new found materialism and rampant deep debts.

However that is the obvious side.  I am wondering more about this slightly more subtle aspect.  Like a contractor wanting to walk off a job when I pointed out problems I saw.

And I think it goes along with your explanation of not having had before but having to be dressed very nicely?

I guess I am spoiled from being able to dress casually for practically any situation here in So. Cal.

I had to ware shirts and ties through grammar school and high school.  So I guess I've had enough of that.

Or my wife telling me that people thought I was bragging when I spoke about my diverse carrer as a builder, jet mechanic in the Navy and now a physician.

Is it some type of a wide spread inferiority complex?

My conclusion is now that the smart thing is just to keep my mouth shut and always smile?

:cool:

[samsara]

Ahhh, face! That superficial conception of one's self. Dont ya just love it?

Face is all about the following:

1) Making sure you never confront anyone or anything

2) Blindly kowtowing to one's elders at whatever cost

3) Being able to hold one's head high despite one's grievous faults/doings.

4) Never understanding human relationships

5) Dying old and miserable, surrounded by your superficial possessions, your superficial friends, your superficial family, but still able to revel in your superificial existence

6) Being accountable for absolutely nothing

Im a big fan of "face". Arent you?

[chonabot]

When put like that , it doesn't sound too bad at all!

[tutsiwarrior]

A greater question is not about having 'face' by a display of wealth and etc...the question is about losing 'face' by whatever combination of circumstances. A lot of westerners that live in SE Asia are not aware of what it means.

An interesting case is Amrozi the 'smiling Bali bomber'. He didn't smile because he was unrepentant...to look concerned would be to lose face...

same shit happens in Thailand...you see somebody frown and you know that you've said the wrong thing...

[SeaVisionBurma]

Ahhh, face! That superficial conception of one's self. Dont ya just love it?

Face is all about the following, etc

Lovely, samsara - when you look at it like that.

Right - consider me a face man too, then.

::

[Heng]

I find the "material flash requirement" most prevalent among the nouveau riche.  The old money -who have always and most likely will run the show for the foreseeable future-, for the most part keep a low profile.   In fact, it's more "fashionable" to joke about how difficult times are.  

Also there is flash and material relativity.   Some of the flash you see is normal.   What might be a "material" item to some foreigners is just a pack of chewing gum (something you pay for cash and don't give much though to how it affects your appearance or cash balance) to the locals.   Many foreigners can't seem to comphrehend that a lot of local wealth is comparable to that of Beacon Hill or Rancho Palos Verdes.  

[samsara]

Actually, Im no big fan. Just simply pointing out the idiocy behind the idea of "face". By labelling it as such, Im not belittling Asian culture or anything, Im solely expressing my dislike (albeit in a tongue-in-cheek manner) for this aspect of Thai culture.

[Heng]

I've found that westerners have a very distinct brand of face as well....  they (like Asians) do not like to be publicly embarrassed either.    

[samsara]

Of course, "face" exists in every culture. Its human nature to protect one's pride, one's "face" as it were. But there needs to be a separation between the extent to which one will go to protect one's face, and one's communal duty so to speak. In Thailand, the possibility of losing face has bearings on major decisions--decisions which affect not only that one person, but a host of others. This is what peeves me.

One's duty to the community, to family and friends, should trump any "face" issues one might have. Because Thais fail to fess up, to 'face' the issues in their lives, Thai society suffers.

Recent generations have started a trend more toward the Western conception of "face", but this, in turn, has created its own problems.

[keestha]

 I am wondering more about this slightly more subtle aspect.  Like a contractor wanting to walk off a job when I pointed out problems I saw.

That incident I understand very well. You cannot criticize people directly, especially in public, because it makes them "lose face". Guess like many westerners living in Asia I learned this the hard way. How I get around this problem nowadays I will illustrate by giving a few examples

1) For 5 years I ran a restaurant/bar that opened early and closed quite late, so in the morning when the beer delivery truck came, I wasnt there yet, and they had to do business with the lady leading the morning shift. In the beginning it happened that I got mad at her because she bought beer though it was low season and the fridge was still full of beer, but later I learned it was better to say to her: "Oh, you bought beer? Well, tomorrow you dont have to buy beer, we have plenty for a while now". Playing it that way you get the desired effect, and you dont risk her getting angry or quitting because you have made her lose face.

2) Firing staff whose performance was way under line, I always told them that there was too much staff and not enough customers. Even if they realize that the place is in fact understaffed, they will accept it without hard feelings if you sugarcoat the pill this way.

3) Once I rented out a room to a girl, only to realize a few days later I had to get rid of her ASAP: the hallway next to her room was smelling heavily of a substance which might be semi legal in the Netherlands or Canada, but definitely not in Thailand. I discussed the thing with a few trusted Thai people, and ended up telling the girl she had to leave because I was about to renovate the building. I had just renovated 2 months ago so she knew it was nonsense, but still she moved the same day, and kept on greeting me when she saw me in the street afterwards.

[Heng]

Of course, "face" exists in every culture. Its human nature to protect one's pride, one's "face" as it were. But there needs to be a separation between the extent to which one will go to protect one's face, and one's communal duty so to speak. In Thailand, the possibility of losing face has bearings on major decisions--decisions which affect not only that one person, but a host of others. This is what peeves me.

One's duty to the community, to family and friends, should trump any "face" issues one might have. Because Thais fail to fess up, to 'face' the issues in their lives, Thai society suffers.

Recent generations have started a trend more toward the Western conception of "face", but this, in turn, has created its own problems.

One's duty to the community, to family and friends, should trump any "face" issues one might have.

Yes, they do (and it has been that way for thousands of years).  I think the problem (peeve) most westerner's have with 'face' issues here derive mostly from the fact that they are still essentially outsiders to most groups.    "I against my brother, my brother and I against my clan, my clan (or family) against the world."   And then the foreigner is on the outside of that.      

   

[D80]

Hmmm....

I can see what you mean... I sometimes get pretty annoyed with the concept...

However, I find that sometimes foreigners in Thailand seem to put lots and lots of things down to the Thais saving face when that is not really the case.  This is just in my view as a Thai... I may be wrong (since I grow up with the concept... it may seem too familiar to me... although I try to step back and look from the distance).  For example, dressing smartly in work environment is more about respecting the workplace and the people you have to deal with.  This will be different in various jobs (and in different countries).  It may sound superficial but I think people are generally superficial anyway when they have to deal with one another on such level.  

There is also a concept in Thai culture called 'Bua mai hai chum. naam mai hai kun' (literally 'don't disturb the lotus, don't cloud the water'). It doesn't mean 'never point out problem'.  But it means 'to point certain things out gently and subtly as good manners require'.  In my understanding, that is not to do with face but to do with avoiding conflict or hurting someone's feeling.  This is best done by trying to find a 'win-win' situation so that there will be no potential fight brewing between the parties.  Thais don't like conflict and will generally try to avoid it.  In some cases, people will say things indirectly, drop hints etc etc to get their point across rather than just jump in and say what they really really think.  The recipients of such comments will sometimes have to do a bit of decoding to get what they really mean.   

Having said that... I don't see much different in this area here in England.  People have different concept of face but there are certain behaviours that I recoginise as being similar to 'saving face'.  I find that in western countries, the concept of face tend to be more subtle.

I also agree with Heng that the sort of 'material flash requirment' is more common among the nouveau riche or even the not-so-rich at all.  People who are already confident in their social status don't usually bother with such silly show.  

Well... that's just my observation...

[sbk]

D80 and Heng are right about that, there is an old chinese couple that live in town, own about 90% of all the real estate in town and wear old clothes, their sons still drive around in an old jeep collecting coconuts. You'd never know they were richer than god to look at them, but of course, everyone here knows them and how much money they have.

As to nice clothes, where I live most people don't work in offices etc, so it is a "face" thing to wear decent clothes to town. It's more than just respect for your neighbors, its the idea that you put on a good appearance before all. And I don't mean wearing Gucci, or anything. When I go to town I change into clean shorts and a clean t-shirt. That's plenty!

Also, I have to say I think that avoiding conflict is also a way of saving face, because who loses face the most? the person who loses their temper in public. so, by finding win-win situations, one can also avoid someone losing face.

I think out and out condemnation of thai "saving face" is foolish, because, lets face it, thats the way it is here. it's their culture and they are allowed to have their own rules. there is nothing that says the western way of doing things is better, just different and sometimes perhaps more efficient. I have found many good aspects to living in Thailand (and more than just the weather since it is now pissing down outside!), as well as negative, but the positive must outweigh the negative because, afer 14 years, I am still here and still like living here. I think, if you can learn to work around some of the difficult concepts (like having an opinion in public!) you will find it easier to live here. Plus, it does help to keep your mouth shut!!! When I have an issue I always tell my husband first, he tells someone else, who then goes and tells the person I am having difficulty with. This way, no one looks bad, no one gets pissed off, and no one loses face either.

[Pepe']

To say the recent replys to this topic have been valuable to me would be a gross understatement.  Again much of this I knew but it is becoming very clear now thanks to the candid responses from all of you.

I hope I am not being presumptuous by thinking that Thai social psychology is not really that complicated after all.  As alleged by other sites I have been on.

What will take more of an effort is remembering the "rules" while on the playing field.  Then smiling and keeping my mouth shut as advised by my brother inlaw.

It will be a challeng but knowledge is powerfull.  So forwarned is forarmed.

The perspectives expressed here were important because of the diversity and the  simultaneous common thread that runs through all of them.

Honestly, we have been reconsidering making the move at all.

[Zendesigner]

Loosing face ?

For d80 and the rest of the thai people here.

In no disrespect to your culture. The face thing is mostly used in thailand to hide several things:

' I cant do it'

' I Don't want to do it '

'there is a small problem , but i'm afraid to tell you'

'I really don't like you , Fxxxx off'

There is a really BIG problem but i'm afraid to tell you'

' I'm lazy or tired, let me sleep'

In all of the situations you get a big smile and YES, no problem.

The Farang thinks , ok it will be done.

The Thai thinks ' My god didn't i save my face this time, i was nice and didn't hurt anybody's feelings ( and in turn i didn't have to do nothing)'

After two weeks when the problem is REALLY big.

The farang is pissed and will start to shout why you didn't tell him before. Which in turn will make you lose face in front of him , cause he will think your incompetent.

The thai gets angry because the farang shouts at him and makes him lose face, because he is a bad person to make him lose face and to rock the boat like that.

In the end both are angry and don't like each other.

Maybe we should abolish this concept of face altogether. It's not from this world anymore !

This is al to readily used as a way of " getting out of responsibility" thing. I see it in shops, offices, even on the streets most of the time as " sorry but i don't care"

My wife has learned after many times that:

If she tells me the problem instantly, she might get some annoying questions, but it will be handled normally.

If she's afraid to tell me and to lose face, If i find out some weeks later. She will get ten times the questions and a big word fight on top, because by that time it's usually to late to do something about it.

Than she REALLY loses face.

I really urge the thai to abolish this concept if they really want to become a First World country, like their leaders so readily want. In the end it's just crippeling to all your relations with other country's and people being Farang or Others.

That's my two cents...

Bart

[Heng]

Ah yes, one of the benefits of "face" type concepts is that it generally doesn't burn bridges.    When various families and businesses are likely to be partners over several generations, you probably don't want to start a blood feud or vendetta in the first or second year of operations over clashing egos about how "the way things should be done."    

This could be one reason why the falang expat, often a temporary fixture on a 2 year tour of duty, is typically left out of the loop.  

[Pepe']

Bart,

Like I said, we are considering not moving back to Thailand to retire.  My wife is Thai through and through so no offense to Thais here.  She says Thailand is crazy, Thai people are no good and San Diego is a more peaceful and much better quality of life.  Her words not mine.

When we went to pull building permits, the day they where finished the head of the building department wanted practically a double fee again over what had already been agreed upon.

My wife got furious and told them to keep them.  She would have her uncle come by to pick them up who  is the governor of the provence.  

She explained that she didn't have to give them anything if she used his name.  She paid them something to be nice and to try to help them out. Now they were trying to cheat her.

The department manager asked her to please not speak to her uncle and gave her the plans at the initially agreed bribe.

Did he lose face in the office in front of his staff !?

Actually I would not even consider Thailand except that it is getting harder and harder to pay the bills in one of the most beautiful but most expensive climates in the good old USA.

Throw out the face game, I'm with you.

It's hard to over look my wifes comments though when she talks about having to shop without me around because the prices go up substantially as soon as Thais see me.

And other things like Thais cheat Thai people whenever they can.  Not just Falangs.  Well I guess that happens here to a certain degree as well.  I think the existing infrastructure and judicial system just make it a little harder.

I fell in love with Thailand over a period of years as a tourist.

I see noe living there will be a very diffent thing.

[Heng]

As to the concept of cheating... in the US (and probably in just about any first world country), you can walk into some stores (Saks Fifth Avenue for example) and buy a pair of boxer shorts or a pair of socks or maybe a simple knit hat for $70 (for one item).   You are very likely to be in a situation where the store clerk knows it's going to be reduced to $40 the next day (400% profit instead of 600 or whatever percent).  And yet it's not construed as "cheating you" if they don't tell you.    Why?   Because it's the way things work.  

The same item, anywhere in the world is likely to cost a different amount to different people.    If you have ever purchased an airline ticket, there are 30+ classes of tickets and airfare that you might get on any one flight.   It's quite the norm for the airline to "cheat" you and not give you the cheapest deal possible (and yes, it costs them the same amount to jet fuel to get most of the people to the same place... shocking isn't it?).  

"It's business, not personal."   Where as the falang in the LOS says (or whines)...   "It's personal!   It's personal!"   (often waving his/her arms around in the air vigorously)

[Pepe']

Heng,

Actually we are not in disagreement.  I did say I thought the same thing happens here with a different motif'.  I don't know why it seems more blatent in Thailand, that's all.

Remember my wife is the one pointing the finger in the first place, for what that's worth.

[D80]

Hi guys,

wow, I am confused now!  heheheh    

I think the concept of face as I know it and the concept of 'face' that you are talking about may not be the same.  I mean (from what I have been taught anyway) in Thai language, saving face is 'tum arai hai mai sia naa' meaning to act in 'appropriate manners' which does not necessarily involve anything material at all.  It's pretty difficult to explain what the 'appropriate manners' are... I guess you do learn by experience.

I can see what sbk is saying about avoiding conflict as part of the 'saving face' thingy.... If I drop some indirect hints to someone who is annoying me, I would not be thinking I am saving face for myself but that I am saving his face.  Confused?       In Thai it would be 'mai tum hai khrai sia naa' (equivalent to not embarassing someone).  I can see what you mean though...

As for examples given about Thais 'saving face' as a cover up for things they can't do or won't do... I don't really know about that.  Some people will probably do so and say that they are 'saving face' or some sort.  But in my social circle, this is frowned upon and is not really seen as a proper way to 'save face'.  I've been taught that if I cannot do certain thing when asked, the proper mannerism that I should adopt is not to say I will do it knowing that I will not or cannot) but to gently say I cannot or will not do such thing.  If you say you will do it then you've got to do it & take the respopnsibility (unless some other circumstances arise, then you have to go & talk to the person who asked in the first place).  I don't know if some Thais you've met got confused with the concept itself or whether they interpret it to suit their situation.  From the experience I have had, doing so is not regarded as 'saving face' but being 'irresponsible'.  

I once asked a professor in a reputable English university to write me a reference for work.  When I approached her she said she would definitely do it for me.  'With pleasure' she said.  But after months went by, she still hadn't done anything and I felt bad having to repeatedly ask for it.  In the end she said she couldn't do it.  No reasons given.  I had to get her colleague to help me out at the last minute.  Her colleague told me she did not intend to do the reference in the first place as she was too busy (more like couldn't be bothered!).  But instead of giving that to me straight, she just want to keep up the image of Professor-such-and-such-the-ever-so-helpful.  I've had numerous stories of this sort and they involved both Thais and farangs.  Just the other day, a colleague of mine said she will print certain documents out for me when I asked her to, no problem.  She was only saying that to 'make herself look like a nice person' (another colleague's words, as she does this to everyone) but never did such thing even when asked loads of times.  That's why I think the concept is not really that alien in Western society, just that it is more subtle.

However, I do agree that the concept of face means many Thais do not communicate enough.  I have seen so many people fall out because they bottle things up so much or keep dropping hints to someone who cannot understand the hints just for the sake of 'saving face', resulting in misunderstanding all around.  When used like this, it is no doubt a very annoying & very harmful concept.

Having said that, what I have been taught while growing up in Thailand is that 'saving face' doesn't mean 'never say anything bad' or 'not pointing out problems'.  For me, it means 1)trying not to upset someone if this is avoidable 2)if this is unavoidable (ie it will cause damage to work/the situation/the relationship etc) then minimise the damage (ie. say things indirectly in an unconfrontational manner) 3)behave politely (being rude and losing your temper is frown upon & seen as 'low' level type of emotions - partly Buddhism idea) and 4)have consideration to others ('ru jaak kraeng jai'- if you ruu jaak kraeng jai, you can lose face big time-this is the concept I find quite difficult to explain... it is sort of like being considerate... but not really....as it is also to do with not asking for too much help... or any help at all... it's to do with not wanting to disturb someone...ach!! you see?!  It's difficult! heheheh).

And excuse me for saying this.. but in some level of Thai society, 'saving face' means 'BLATANTLY' showing off to one another as much as possible.  I'm trying so hard not to be such a snob that you all probably know I am!    :laugh:   But that sort of 'saving face' is seen as vulgar in my circle.  For me, that's just boasting and not really saving face as it's meant to be.  Sure, people like to show off from time to time... but too much of that can cause you to 'lose face' as well!  

Confused?  I am!  

[D80]

Oh and one more post!

I actually agree with many things that Pepe said.  I probably won't go as far as his wife... but it's true that if Thailand is free of such corruption that he's described, it would be a whole lot nicer to live there.

I have also had that sort of experience.... some stupid firm was trying to cheat me... but they didn't get away with it hahahah  

I think Pepe's wife did the right thing really in confronting these people when the money to be paid are not 'legal fees' r any 'processing costs' but pure 'bribe'.  These people should be made to face their crime.   ::

And also got to agree with the double pricing!  Grrrr I am one of the main advocates for such system to be stopped, at least in private business sector.  I don't mind too much when I have to pay for my hubby's different prices when we visit temples and places like that.  But it really pissed me off that a shirt would cost 150 baths if I ask for it & when they see my hubby, the price jump up to 300 baths (or even 500!)!

Sorry, I diverted from the issue.  

[samsara]

Good thread--actually have a genuine debate going here.

Cheating happens everywhere. Rule number one in business: cheat when possible. Thats the way it works. Ethics try to rear their head, but usually get thrown aside.

What makes cheating per se so blatant here in Thailand, is that there is no structure to the business paradigm here oncesoever. The mom and pop shops, which are actually illegal, go through little, if any, inspection. They do what they want, what they can get away with. To compare being ripped off at Sacs on 5th ave to getting charged double for a fraudulent pair of nikes by the seemingly innocent thai grandmother just doesnt make sense. Sacs is violating ethics, the Thai the law. Simple as that.

In defense of Thais, however, what are they to do? If I were Thai and ran such a store, Id charge farangs 2b as well.

Lets ask ourselves why this is the case? Why must mom and pop who run the illegal shop charge farangs double?

[Zendesigner]

hi everybody,

i have an example of last week.

I had to go to the Kasuan Thang Phrathet (ministry for consular matters) to legalize my marriage in thailand.

I paid an asked for the fast procedure which cost 400 bath. I deposited the papers including 500 bath.

The girl said they would process the bill and i could sit down until they called me.

After 25 minutes i asked my wife to go and ask what happened to the money. She came back with the news that they MISPLACED the paper and were processing it now.

After 1 hour i went back myself with my wife since they not called my name yet and to ask what had happened?

The money was in front of them adn they insisted that they called my name twice already but i didn't respond.

Now one of two things probably happened.

1 they wanted to keep the 100 bath themselfs and hoped that i would not remember?

2 they were afraid to lose face pronouncing my name and therefore just didn't?

They handed the receipt  + money and said i had to wait two hours. The standard wait is two hours !!! .

I Put them on their place western style and made them lose face big this time.  as they made me lose an hour there already (i wanted to go to lunch) losing stuff and not doing there job right. I demanded in a loud voice to have the paper rady in an hour while everybody could hear it.

Guess what ? the paper was ready in 30 minutes.

Now i didn't want to raise my voice in the first place and was prepared to go with the flow untill it was ready.

They just created the situation in the first place. I saw in the mean time Thai company's coming and leaving in 5 minutes with 10 papers stamped and registered.

That's what drives farang's to Lose face in thai's opinion in the first place.

BAd service, Hiked up prices, corruption from police for 200 bath, the constant I dont know attitude of shops , ect...

Most Farangs are JAi DEE but there sometimes is a point where enough is enough...

Bart

[taxexile]

Lets ask ourselves why this is the case? Why must mom and pop who run the illegal shop charge farangs double?

if a customer does not like the quoted price then he or she can choose whether to proceed with the purchase or to  go elsewhere. just like anywhere else in the world.

why do you say the mom and pop shops are illegal.?

[samsara]

Common knowledge that the little shops everywhere are illegal. Some 4 or 5 months back, there were a few riffs in the govt. about it--no enforcement, etc.--but nothing was done because of the rather looming consequences: mass "unemployment" and the decrease in capital flow.

Small towns run on these places. Franchises have to compete against them, and hate them.

I think theyre good. Very convenient and cheap, if you know the owner.

This might be of some interest. Comes from a former Microsoft employee (a company infamous for its dealings with Thailand):

"Thailand isn't a country so much as an 'amusement park/criminal conspiracy'  run by human fecal matter whose political and familial behavior would be the object of criminal action in any other country.  Lying, cheating, and weaseling are so endemic that children consider it proper behavior and ignorant xenophibic Thais defend it as their culture.  Their religious icons, monks; are beggers and their dual pricing system for foreigners places them on a contemporary maturity scale that is 500 years behind the times.  The whiney self-serving excuse that pirating other people products and ideas is OK because they are poor is absurd and childish almost beyond belief.  I have no sympathy for criminals.  The entire country is a virtual mafia.  Thailand has no strategic importance, natural resources, or work ethic.  The ignorant farmers daughters are now pricing themselves out of business so the farang-oriented sex-tourist industry is starting to slow down.  The wheel is turning.  Soon it wil all be a memory and a historical footnote.  Another forgotten tribe that couldn't get it together and couldn't get competitive."

I in no way agree in totality with what is said above, but I do carry some of the same sentiments, though not to such a ridiculous degree. I dont wanna get off on a rant here (Dr...) but Thailand's business paradigm sux. Govt officials spout off about how they aspire to make Thailand rise above Malaysia and all that jazz, well get a clue, guys.

Thailand has become internationally renowned as a harbour to pirating, illegal business, and organized crime. Dont wanna disturb your quaint idea of the place, but pretty much everything you see on the street is illegal in one way or another: cds, dvds, software, brand-name fakes, etc. its illegal stuff sold by illegal vendors.

If Thailand truly desires to become modernized, it needs to clean up its act. Cause guess what...all these illegal activities most Thais purport to benefit their own people, actually are condemning them to third-world status in the big picture, and eliminating their jobs in the small picture.

[Herald]

I had a "face" problem that I never really understood and probably handled quite badly.

I worked for a High School which had as part of its package to farang free medical (within certain Baht limits).

I was a very popular teacher at this school and the Director always went out of his way to talk to me during the day if we ran into eachother.

One evening I had a kidney stone attack...I know it was a kidney stone as I have had 4 others previously. To those that don't know the pain...it is excruciating...You want to pass the freaking stone and need a shot to kill the pain.

The school had a clinc on site so I hobbled down to the nurse and explained my problem. A Thai teacher who spoke good english was there to help. After much discussion and time, looking at my condition they took me to a hospital where they took an x-ray (what for I don't know) and eventually gave me the shotand I passed the stone overnight. The hospital charged 700 baht which they demanded payment before the shot...I got a receipt and turned it into the office expecting to get reimbursed.

The School said that I went to the wrong hospital (it was private) so I would get no money back...I argued {sigh} that it was not my decision to go there...I was taken there by their staff....got nowhere...went to the head of finance for the school and presented my case....same stonewall.

So I gave up and returned to the Language office and my supervisor (Thai) asked what was wrong...I explained and she said I should write a note about it and she would take it to the Director....I did and got paid the 700 baht.

I didn't really want to involve the Director since those lower down should have been able to resolve the issue. But for a month afterward I was "persona non grata". I could be an arms lenght away from him and he wouldn't even acknowledge I was there. I suppose I was being punished :-)

Eventually after that he condescended to wei me from a distance...but I always wondered abut that incident.

[ray23]

Hmm!!!!!

I'm not so sure that saving face to a Thai means treating other people with respect and being treated in a like manner, in dealing wiht farrrangs. I think when it comes to money they want the upper hand even if only by a baht.

Recently my land lord showed up with a girlfriend on tow, I assume to show what an excellent business woman she was. She didn't want much only me to pay the fire insurance on her house, the property taxes and a new lease instead of the one we had signed three months prior. Wriiten in Thai, I don't read Thia so that meant I had to have it translated. Called for me to pay the taxes, the fire insurance and leave any improvements I did to the house. None of which was agreed upon in the origianl lease.

I had a lease for one year and option to renew for three. The place had been vacant fo 2&1/2 years, even the screens had been stolen out of it. I fixed it up to move in. I was about to repaint the entire house inside and out until she pulled this one.

I told her no way on all acounts, smiling and very careful to say so in kind manner. At which she got angry she was emabrrased by me not agreeing to her demands. Now keep in mind the rent was payed one year, in advance.

So she yells at me she is not happy, bad mistake I have face to, giving respect means getting respect back. Being a retired cop of twenty years I have no problem mixing it up, just would prefer not to. In agreesive voice I explained to he in no uncertain terms I wasn't there to make her happy. That was several months ago and she haas not been back since. Was she embarrased probably so, especially when she was trying to show off to a girl friend.

I will always give respect to people but I expect to be two way street. Did she lose face probably but she did it to herself with greed. All I did was everything I said I was going to go get up in the morning adn ahve my coffee. This was about putting one over on the dumb farrang, something I don't play when it is this blatent.  

Hey a couple of baht if it makes you look better in your neighbors eyes. But simetime it is not a cuople of baht, sometimes it is shear insanity and most newbies go along, beacuse they are in a foriegn country and don't know any better.

So I believe that many times Thais get ask to lose face.

Just a thought