Five Wounded In Bomb Attack During Yellow Shirt Rally

[jayboy]

Agree with whomever you like.

We know who he is devoted to, by his own words.

We know who he hates with out exception, by his own words.

We know he says one thing and that thing happens on cue.

Clear patterns of behavior exist in the public domain.

Where there's smoke there's usually fire.

That's no way to talk about Khun Prem.Have a little respect.

[neverdie]

Such sad disgraceful times

ohhh and the TV Forum on these issues are like so same <deleted>, different shovel

Spot on,the same drivel from the tv political experts ,Your not thai guys...Grabs my coat......

Rather start another thread about sin sot

[Steve2UK]

Agree with whomever you like.

We know who he is devoted to, by his own words.

We know who he hates with out exception, by his own words.

We know he says one thing and that thing happens on cue.

Clear patterns of behavior exist in the public domain.

Where there's smoke there's usually fire.

That's no way to talk about Khun Prem.Have a little respect.

Oh....... so, animatic isn't talking about me?

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

there has to my knowledge been no analysis of what was said at the PAD rally or at the way it was slanted. Both were very interesting as were comments that attendees were not all natural PAD supporters. The date of the next PAD rally is also of interest.

Do we need a new thread or do we use this one for such comments?

Not the missing analysis, but some interesting comments just added by Nick Nostitz to his pics and description at

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2...re-rises-again/

"An interesting observation i have made, and this has not been the first time, is that while Thaksin still seems to be their main enemy, the Red Shirts though seemed to have found some acceptance under many of the hardcore PAD members. Not that they like the Red Shirts in any way, or would not go to battle with them again, but compared to last year, many have accepted the fact that Red Shirts do have a political ideology, and are not just a rent-a-mob. When talking with some of the Nac Lop Srivichai, i have had some very reasonable discussions about the Red Shirts and the political situation in general.

This somewhat changed attitude makes my life covering these events a lot easier as well. I hate to hide my views when i talk with people, and it was accepted without any animosity when i said that i do like the fact that simple people increasingly care about [how] their country is governed, and that there are logical reasons why they choose to join the Red Shirts. Last year, such comments gave me a lot of grief."

Just one person's view but it seems to echo something that I think you said yourself? If he's even partly right, it might suggest that some of the PAD thinking has moved on further than much of what one reads here on TVF.

On the content/atmosphere of the Sanam Luang rally, also worth looking at Somsak Jeamteerasakul's brief comment earlier on that page.

[hammered]

<snip>

there has to my knowledge been no analysis of what was said at the PAD rally or at the way it was slanted. Both were very interesting as were comments that attendees were not all natural PAD supporters. The date of the next PAD rally is also of interest.

Do we need a new thread or do we use this one for such comments?

Not the missing analysis, but some interesting comments just added by Nick Nostitz to his pics and description at

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2...re-rises-again/

"An interesting observation i have made, and this has not been the first time, is that while Thaksin still seems to be their main enemy, the Red Shirts though seemed to have found some acceptance under many of the hardcore PAD members. Not that they like the Red Shirts in any way, or would not go to battle with them again, but compared to last year, many have accepted the fact that Red Shirts do have a political ideology, and are not just a rent-a-mob. When talking with some of the Nac Lop Srivichai, i have had some very reasonable discussions about the Red Shirts and the political situation in general.

This somewhat changed attitude makes my life covering these events a lot easier as well. I hate to hide my views when i talk with people, and it was accepted without any animosity when i said that i do like the fact that simple people increasingly care about [how] their country is governed, and that there are logical reasons why they choose to join the Red Shirts. Last year, such comments gave me a lot of grief."

Just one person's view but it seems to echo something that I think you said yourself? If he's even partly right, it might suggest that some of the PAD thinking has moved on further than much of what one reads here on TVF.

On the content/atmosphere of the Sanam Luang rally, also worth looking at Somsak Jeamteerasakul's brief comment earlier on that page.

It does seem the political colours are evolving and probably both accepting the other will not disappear but there still remains the likelihood of clashes between them right now

I did take a look at this stuff. Always intersting to discover more and different opinions as we wait for the outcome

[Siripon]

PAD have never hated the red shirts, they hate and despise Thaksin.

If the red shirts could shrug off Thaksin they would find many supporters amongst those who wish an end to money politics.

But they can't do it and if they did they would probably collapse into factionalism.

[hammered]

Reports that Jatuporn expects 1 million at the next rally and it must end with either the government or red shirts gone. I think it starts Nov 28.

The asset seizure case is due to conclude in early December.

[jayboy]

PAD have never hated the red shirts, they hate and despise Thaksin.

Sounds good and "inclusive" but unfortunately it's not true.There was and is a great deal of hatred on the part of the mainly urban middle class for the rural majority who comprised the groundswell of support for the red movement.The disgusting and racist language used by many PAD supporters for ordinary Thais is a matter of record.As long as they "knew their place" there was no particular problem but Thais these days increasingly couldn't give a rat's wotsit about some pre-ordained place at the bottom of the heap.I would go so far to say that the hatred for Thaksin was to a significant degree generated by his politicisation of the majority to the point it presaged the end of the privileged status quo (and of course that of their shadowy supporters and paymasters).

[h90]

Like the 50 PTP MP's who crossed the border to meet with their "Dark Lord" instead of sitting in Parliment, which they were elected and get paid to do. Too much trouble it seems.

Did you read the answer when they asked about it?

"The next house session should be in cambodia"

I don't like Newin but I must admit he has humor.

[hammered]

PAD have never hated the red shirts, they hate and despise Thaksin.

Sounds good and "inclusive" but unfortunately it's not true.There was and is a great deal of hatred on the part of the mainly urban middle class for the rural majority who comprised the groundswell of support for the red movement.The disgusting and racist language used by many PAD supporters for ordinary Thais is a matter of record.As long as they "knew their place" there was no particular problem but Thais these days increasingly couldn't give a rat's wotsit about some pre-ordained place at the bottom of the heap.I would go so far to say that the hatred for Thaksin was to a significant degree generated by his politicisation of the majority to the point it presaged the end of the privileged status quo (and of course that of their shadowy supporters and paymasters).

I think you need to be careful about equating the urban middle class with the PAD. The PAD have become a homogenous and now small group existing around an extreme ideology. The urban middle class consists of quite a diverse group of people and covers all of the political spectrum.

I'll just give an example of where I live in urban Chonburi. The middle class consists of multi-generational middle class Thai and Thai-Chinese who hail from the province. However, there are also a lot and maybe a majority of the middle class who are first generation and who come from outside Chonburi with a maost coming origianlly from the Isaan or North and a few from Bangkok and other bits of central Chonburi. Ok within this diverse group I rarely encounter overt negative comments about the rural people and even more covert comments are not common. However, there are a minority that act as you describe. Funnily enough where I actually live there is quite a lot of mixing between peoples of different class and regional background. I am not going to dispute that the PAD have made racist and stereotyping comments about rural people. I have also heard some red side supporters make disparaging stereotyping comments about Sino-Thai's but that is digressing and getting away form my point.

The middle class in Chonburi used to be pretty pro-PAD back in the anti-corruption days in 2005/6 but that has changed. There has been an uptick in middle class support for the reds and a decline for the yellow side but I would now guess most are in the middle from my observations. In many ways this reflects I think a national trend with middle class people with a move away from PAD but not really to reds. A few have described it as people with/of no colour. Funny thing is the red shirt supporter I know the best is a Sino-Thai locally born businessman who few would describe as anything but traditonal in his views but who is a red and Thaksin supporter through and through and far more so than anyone I have ever met in the rural areas our family lives in!

[jayboy]

I think you need to be careful about equating the urban middle class with the PAD. The PAD have become a homogenous and now small group existing around an extreme ideology. The urban middle class consists of quite a diverse group of people and covers all of the political spectrum.

I take your point completely.Having said that I was really talking about that section of the Bangkok middle class which actively supported PAD in its active rallying days.I should also have made it clear that many PAD supporters particularly in the early days were and are thoroughly decent people who were genuinely and rightly appalled at Thaksin's corruption and meglomania.Trouble is on this forum that one often against time struggles to make a point and nuance (often critical) is a victim.Mea culpa.

[hammered]

I think you need to be careful about equating the urban middle class with the PAD. The PAD have become a homogenous and now small group existing around an extreme ideology. The urban middle class consists of quite a diverse group of people and covers all of the political spectrum.

I take your point completely.Having said that I was really talking about that section of the Bangkok middle class which actively supported PAD in its active rallying days.I should also have made it clear that many PAD supporters particularly in the early days were and are thoroughly decent people who were genuinely and rightly appalled at Thaksin's corruption and meglomania.Trouble is on this forum that one often against time struggles to make a point and nuance (often critical) is a victim.Mea culpa.

It is far too easy at times to drop words or phrases into comment that may intially seem interchangeable but actually arent or carry different conotations. I think all of us who psot regularly on here are guilty to some degree.

[Jingthing]

Extreme huh? As extreme as violent attacks? As extreme as Black Songkran? As extreme as taking the side of another country against your own?

Edited November 17, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I know about the anti-communist history here and the overreaction during the Vietnam war. However, just asking, is part of this PAD rhetoric a dig at Thaksin's Chinese ethnicity and by implication friendliness with the communist party of China model? If Thaksin is attracted to that model, that is pretty much the opposite of being pro democracy. His color is RED. Of course, Thaksin is on record while he was in power as saying democracy is not important (unless he can use the rhetoric of "stolen" power to gain sympathy in the west).

Edited November 17, 2009 by Jingthing

[hammered]

I know about the anti-communist history here and the overreaction during the Vietnam war. However, just asking, is part of this PAD rhetoric a dig at Thaksin's Chinese ethnicity and by implication friendliness with the communist party of China model? If Thaksin is attracted to that model, that is pretty much the opposite of being pro democracy. His color is RED. Of course, Thaksin is on record while he was in power as saying democracy is not important (unless he can use the rhetoric of "stolen" power to gain sympathy in the west).

Thaksin is, as even a lot of red supporters will admit, a political oportunist and has no ideology beyond a vague attachment to free markets except when it interferes with his business. He is certainly no socialist. The red side do have some old CPT cadres but by no means all of them and the PAD also have some old CPT cadres. In fact I was once told there are more ex-CPT in the PAD than the UDD but dont know if it is true or not.

Thaksins red alliance covers many groups from extreme left to extreme right and the opportunistic politically.

[Meridian007]

I also dont have a problem with the Dems doing that after all it is all poltics, but personally I cant see blame in people missing a parlaimentary meeting unless of course it is on a regular basis when of course they arent doing their job, but a one off? I also think the PTPs argument they all booked business leave is silly. It is just politics. I also cant work out how the government which has a majority in the lower house and suppor tof at least half the senators cant get a quorum. If they sue PTP, they may well have to sue a bunch of senators and coalition MPs.

Just rearrange the meeting and use the whips to ensure you have enough of your own people present.

I don't think they will sue PTP, but if all these TRT are in Cambodia now to see their glorious leader, maybe now is the time to close the border?

[jayboy]

I know about the anti-communist history here and the overreaction during the Vietnam war. However, just asking, is part of this PAD rhetoric a dig at Thaksin's Chinese ethnicity and by implication friendliness with the communist party of China model? If Thaksin is attracted to that model, that is pretty much the opposite of being pro democracy. His color is RED. Of course, Thaksin is on record while he was in power as saying democracy is not important (unless he can use the rhetoric of "stolen" power to gain sympathy in the west).

Not at all.The PAD leadership (along with most Thai politicians) and most of its supporters are of Chinese ethnicity.At PAD rallies the Chinese angle was positively trumpeted with appropriate boastful tee shirts.The current Chinese political model and its absence of democracy is very attractive to many PAD members.PAD was interested in limiting democracy in the guise of "improving" it so that the great unwashed went under represented.It's true that Thaksin had a strong relationship with China but then the entire Thai ruling class is to one degree or another in permanent kowtow mode to Beijing.If Thaksin had a problem with the elite it would have been that he was not "establishment" even though his family had been a prominent Chinese commercial one in Chiangmai for several generations.He was seen a pushy parvenu, all the more intolerable because he represented a threat to their long entrenched interests.

[jayboy]

a vague attachment to free markets except when it interferes with his business.

Hammered, wouldn't this apply to almost every Thai politician? Not much ideology or even political ideas in the Thai arena.

Interesting point you pose as to where most ex-CPT activists repose these days.I have no idea but a 50-50 red-yellow split doesn't seem too untoward.

[hammered]

a vague attachment to free markets except when it interferes with his business.

Hammered, wouldn't this apply to almost every Thai politician? Not much ideology or even political ideas in the Thai arena.

Interesting point you pose as to where most ex-CPT activists repose these days.I have no idea but a 50-50 red-yellow split doesn't seem too untoward.

The NPP have ideology;) Not one I would agree with but they have it.

But yes I would agree it applies to most politicans. Maybe some Dems are ideologically conservative but conservatism is argaubly not an ideology as it is just about keeping what exists or allowing only enough change to keep the plebs happy not that the Dems seem to have worked this bit of conservatism out yet. Im sure most PTP and most Dems are also free market supporters except when..... Now lets look at the smaller partuies and their ideology and political ideas....on second thoughts.... that didnt take long.

I too dont know on the split of ex-CPT. There are some who also arent aligned, oh and some aligned with Newin!

[h90]

Those "peaceful" redshirts at it again. Support them at your peril.

Red,Yellow,they both are as bad as each other.

you're an idiot. only the red team has used violence.

Yellow had used violence in self defense a few times as the police didn't help them. But never attacked....

[webfact]

one flaming post deleted.

[Jingthing]

I know about the anti-communist history here and the overreaction during the Vietnam war. However, just asking, is part of this PAD rhetoric a dig at Thaksin's Chinese ethnicity and by implication friendliness with the communist party of China model? If Thaksin is attracted to that model, that is pretty much the opposite of being pro democracy. His color is RED. Of course, Thaksin is on record while he was in power as saying democracy is not important (unless he can use the rhetoric of "stolen" power to gain sympathy in the west).

Thaksin is, as even a lot of red supporters will admit, a political oportunist and has no ideology beyond a vague attachment to free markets except when it interferes with his business. He is certainly no socialist. The red side do have some old CPT cadres but by no means all of them and the PAD also have some old CPT cadres. In fact I was once told there are more ex-CPT in the PAD than the UDD but dont know if it is true or not.

Thaksins red alliance covers many groups from extreme left to extreme right and the opportunistic politically.

Not a socialist huh? Depending on the payed for votes of the masses of poor agricultural people (peasants) for a populist movement to redistribute wealth towards them (deserved or not), that is not something a populist socialist would do? I heard something interesting on the news about modern China, regarding the move towards democracy. To summarize the quite, it had Chinese saying: Democracy? Why would we want democracy? That's the LAST thing we want. We have been ruled the the tyranny of the peasant masses for 50 years already.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Jingthing

[nitecm]

I know about the anti-communist history here and the overreaction during the Vietnam war. However, just asking, is part of this PAD rhetoric a dig at Thaksin's Chinese ethnicity and by implication friendliness with the communist party of China model? If Thaksin is attracted to that model, that is pretty much the opposite of being pro democracy. His color is RED. Of course, Thaksin is on record while he was in power as saying democracy is not important (unless he can use the rhetoric of "stolen" power to gain sympathy in the west).

Thaksin is, as even a lot of red supporters will admit, a political oportunist and has no ideology beyond a vague attachment to free markets except when it interferes with his business. He is certainly no socialist. The red side do have some old CPT cadres but by no means all of them and the PAD also have some old CPT cadres. In fact I was once told there are more ex-CPT in the PAD than the UDD but dont know if it is true or not.

Thaksins red alliance covers many groups from extreme left to extreme right and the opportunistic politically.

Not a socialist huh? Depending on the payed for votes of the masses of poor agricultural people (peasants) for a populist movement to redistribute wealth towards them (deserved or not), that is not something a populist socialist would do? I heard something interesting on the news about modern China, regarding the move towards democracy. To summarize the quite, it had Chinese saying: Democracy? Why would we want democracy? That's the LAST thing we want. We have been ruled the the tyranny of the peasant masses for 50 years already.

No care what argument here ,the rural areas at north and north east are still hoping that Thaksin to come back.

The current Dem govenmemt and their partners still can not penetrate their network .

[neverdie]

one flaming post deleted.

no need to swear about it webfact

[webfact]

one flaming post deleted.

no need to swear about it webfact

...this is my way....

[neverdie]

^.....well who am i to argue with that.....

[Bagwan]

PAD have never hated the red shirts, they hate and despise Thaksin.

If the red shirts could shrug off Thaksin they would find many supporters amongst those who wish an end to money politics.

But they can't do it and if they did they would probably collapse into factionalism.

My thoughts also. The 64 dollar question is who is a credible future leader? Cometh the hour, cometh the man would not seem to apply.

[Siripon]

The present PM is doing a fine job. I see Pheua Thai are distancing themselves from Panlop's claim of bribing parties to stand in the election, surprise, surprise!

[Publicus]

The present PM is doing a fine job. I see Pheua Thai are distancing themselves from Panlop's claim of bribing parties to stand in the election, surprise, surprise!

There's a consensus emerging that the Abhisit coalition has the knack of a Rocky Mountain goat, ie, it can keep its footing no matter how steep or rough the political terrain, and that Abhisit increasingly seems set for the long term hence the (now) Nov 30 government demolition date.

I myself think the timing of the reds' newest wet dream drive to dissemble the government is astoundingly bad if not just plain incredulous. Stick a fork in 'em cause the reds are done.

[TAWP]

In most of the world, firing upon insurgents who occupy govt buildings or take control of international airports is thought of as an act of patriotism. Refusing to fire is treason, and that is exactly what happened in Thailand.

Nonsense, and the exact opposite is the reason why the 2nd amendment in the US is so important.

You would claim that siding with the brown-shirts in Germany and attacking Jews and other people was the right thing to do also?

The government should be afraid of the people, not the other way around.