Decline In Thaksin's Popularity

[animatic]

regardless of the Nation's standpoint, let's call a spade a spade here: if Thaksin had pulled this stunt in any sane and mature democracy ...

In no sane and mature democracy an democratically elected leader is overthrown by a military coup.

In no sane and mature democracy the police and army will refuse to obey to a democratically elected government.

Let's call a spade a spade here : the rules of a sane and mature democracy don't apply to Thailand since the 2006 coup

The rules you reference didn't apply to Thailand for long before the 2006 coup either. TiT always and apparently forever.

Spot on this isn't about the 2006 coup at all, but the Thai way of letting the army run off

their graspingly avaricious, or purely incompetent politicians and essentially resetting the clock

for a new shot at Democracy after a time out to reset things.

Is this a good thing, well from the western viewpoint no,

but for the Thais... it's just life as it is.

PS Red-head,

Thaksin didn't suddenly make the airport appear,

it was on the boards and in the process for 40 YEARS, before he came along,

and rushed the final year or so and took major credit for 2 generations of work.

I mean really, this is such monumental claptrap it beats all, so why listen.

Edited November 30, 2009 by animatic

[animatic]

Given that Thaksin has shown us repeatedly that his evil brain needs a post mortem examination for the good of humanity, the prospect of his returning to power would need to be prevented as the highest priority.

Careful now - you'll have some folk thinking that you'd really prefer the brain dissection to be ante mortem.

Antebellum would work for me,

as long as he can't actually START the war first.

Maybe needed also for our antediluvian 'Great Brain' Chavalit too.

Cut him off at the past, before the rising redtide inundates the lowlands.

Even mullusks can drown in bad conditions.

Thais can drown in artificially inflated bile, if the don't stop it.

Edited November 30, 2009 by animatic

[Maestro]

A troll post about branding a household article and 7 replies to it have been deleted. Please do not fee the trolls.

--

Maestro

[clausewitz]

I wonder what that corruption index would be this year if he was incarcerated and serving a 30 year prison sentence (obviously based on convictions of his other pending corruption charges).

When people see someone openly skirting the law, they are more prone to skirt the same law themselves. It's not until that person is held responsible will be people sit up and take notice that corruption is bad. It'd be terrific to see him come back and face that sort of time in jail. You'd see that corruption index drop like a rock.

How spectacularly naive.It wouldn't make any difference of course.Corruption is pervasive in a very high degree in all aspects of Thai life including the corporate world politics, the military and the bureaucracy.A notoriously corrupt politician serves in a high position in the current government.It doesn't need Thaksin's presence to make an example of corruption.There are more than enough enough targets right here in Bangkok.The fallacy of course in the poster's comment is that corrupt though Thaksin was, this is the excuse not the real motive for the elite's hatred of him.

Have you ever seen any of the Thaksin haters question how General Sonthi (the leader of the coup against Thaksin) became a millionairre on his soldiers salary, just as an example.

[h90]

I wonder what that corruption index would be this year if he was incarcerated and serving a 30 year prison sentence (obviously based on convictions of his other pending corruption charges).

When people see someone openly skirting the law, they are more prone to skirt the same law themselves. It's not until that person is held responsible will be people sit up and take notice that corruption is bad. It'd be terrific to see him come back and face that sort of time in jail. You'd see that corruption index drop like a rock.

How spectacularly naive.It wouldn't make any difference of course.Corruption is pervasive in a very high degree in all aspects of Thai life including the corporate world politics, the military and the bureaucracy.A notoriously corrupt politician serves in a high position in the current government.It doesn't need Thaksin's presence to make an example of corruption.There are more than enough enough targets right here in Bangkok.The fallacy of course in the poster's comment is that corrupt though Thaksin was, this is the excuse not the real motive for the elite's hatred of him.

Have you ever seen any of the Thaksin haters question how General Sonthi (the leader of the coup against Thaksin) became a millionairre on his soldiers salary, just as an example.

Let us know. I got told he married rich, so his wife has money. But I never paid any attention to it so it might be wrong.

[LawnGnome]

I wonder what that corruption index would be this year if he was incarcerated and serving a 30 year prison sentence (obviously based on convictions of his other pending corruption charges).

When people see someone openly skirting the law, they are more prone to skirt the same law themselves. It's not until that person is held responsible will be people sit up and take notice that corruption is bad. It'd be terrific to see him come back and face that sort of time in jail. You'd see that corruption index drop like a rock.

How spectacularly naive.It wouldn't make any difference of course.Corruption is pervasive in a very high degree in all aspects of Thai life including the corporate world politics, the military and the bureaucracy.A notoriously corrupt politician serves in a high position in the current government.It doesn't need Thaksin's presence to make an example of corruption.There are more than enough enough targets right here in Bangkok.The fallacy of course in the poster's comment is that corrupt though Thaksin was, this is the excuse not the real motive for the elite's hatred of him.

Have you ever seen any of the Thaksin haters question how General Sonthi (the leader of the coup against Thaksin) became a millionairre on his soldiers salary, just as an example.

ahhh - did you see what Clauswitz did? He is trying to create the idea that people who don' support the red shirts, are all staunch supporters of the coup and its leaders. Very clever, Claus, very clever. Its complete bullocks, however. The world is not made up only of reds and yellows. I can hate Thaksin and what he stands for, and yet, also equally despise the methods of the yellows and the military. That is something that probably drives you crazy, because you can't find a way take your potshots then.

[Ricardo]

ahhh - did you see what Clauswitz did? He is trying to create the idea that people who don' support the red shirts, are all staunch supporters of the coup and its leaders. Very clever, Claus, very clever. Its complete bullocks, however. The world is not made up only of reds and yellows. I can hate Thaksin and what he stands for, and yet, also equally despise the methods of the yellows and the military. That is something that probably drives you crazy, because you can't find a way take your potshots then.

You're either with Thaksin, or you're simply not a 'true democrat', and probably drink blood too !

Personally I've posted several times, that any corruption should be exposed being a good thing, from the military-appointed government era or since, but not much is shown. The 'light of day' is an excellent, and much-needed, disinfectant.

If only the Red-Shirts themselves were as keen or successful, as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends, the publicity could only help reduce corruption. But perhaps this is not high on Takki's priority-list ?

[rixalex]

Have you ever seen any of the Thaksin haters question how General Sonthi (the leader of the coup against Thaksin) became a millionairre on his soldiers salary, just as an example.

ahhh - did you see what Clauswitz did? He is trying to create the idea that people who don' support the red shirts, are all staunch supporters of the coup and its leaders. Very clever, Claus, very clever. Its complete bullocks, however.

As clausewitz has taken to labelling people Thaksin haters, i guess it's ok to label him a Thaksin lover?

Like all Thaksin lovers, clauswitz tires of continually being on the defensive. He craves a bit of action on the attack. Problem is, how do you attack people who are simply speaking out against a convicted criminal? It's tough. I pity him and all the Thaksin lovers on this forum.

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

As clausewitz has taken to labelling people Thaksin haters, i guess it's ok to label him a Thaksin lover?

<snip>

Illogical, Captain. For one thing he seems to have been referring to a category and not an individual; if you're looking to reciprocity as justification, you'd likewise refer only to a category - and not label an individual.

That said, I find that labeling even a grouping as simply "x-haters" or "x-lovers" (where "x" is usually "PAD", "Reds", "Sondhi", "Thaksin") generally unhelpful - it tends to shut down consideration of what the poster is saying because the focus shifts to who it's coming from (back to the now familiar "shoot the messenger rather than tackle the message"). I also find that concluding anyone is automatically for anything because they question or even are obviously against something else makes no sense. Unless one just wants to drop into the bottomless "my enemy's enemy is my friend" pit, I don't see the rationale.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Steve2UK

[Steve2UK]

ahhh - did you see what Clauswitz did? He is trying to create the idea that people who don' support the red shirts, are all staunch supporters of the coup and its leaders. Very clever, Claus, very clever. Its complete bullocks, however. The world is not made up only of reds and yellows. I can hate Thaksin and what he stands for, and yet, also equally despise the methods of the yellows and the military. That is something that probably drives you crazy, because you can't find a way take your potshots then.

You're either with Thaksin, or you're simply not a 'true democrat', and probably drink blood too !

Personally I've posted several times, that any corruption should be exposed being a good thing, from the military-appointed government era or since, but not much is shown. The 'light of day' is an excellent, and much-needed, disinfectant.

If only the Red-Shirts themselves were as keen or successful, as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends, the publicity could only help reduce corruption. But perhaps this is not high on Takki's priority-list ?

Overdue that I echo my good friend Ricardo's sentiments and, come to that, at least the principles behind what LawnGnome says (kind of the same point that I made earlier).

It's sad that the current opposition don't do what an effective opposition should do - hold the government to account for what it does/doesn't do.............. and what it screws up (which all governments do). I agree that matters would improve if they could/would only cut loose from a Thaksin-led agenda. I can't forget Suthep remarking that the Democrat government seems to forget it's no longer in opposition (my inference - it should get on with governing). Pheu Thai don't seem to have sorted out their proper role either.

Interesting point in Ricardo's last sentence. My take on the present coalition is that it has enough strains within it to fracture by itself - if the real power-holders don't pull the plug first; if that's the case, the sensible approach for Thaksin and his acolytes would seem to be to just help the process along and make it happen sooner rather than later. The classic response is "the assets" - that's why it's urgent. Maybe so - but IMO it's naive to imagine that there aren't "conversations" (effectively negotiations) about that going on behind the scenes. Compare the British government's mantra that "we never, never ever negotiate with the IRA" - until we do.............

[caf]

ahhh - did you see what Clauswitz did? He is trying to create the idea that people who don' support the red shirts, are all staunch supporters of the coup and its leaders. Very clever, Claus, very clever. Its complete bullocks, however. The world is not made up only of reds and yellows. I can hate Thaksin and what he stands for, and yet, also equally despise the methods of the yellows and the military. That is something that probably drives you crazy, because you can't find a way take your potshots then.

You're either with Thaksin, or you're simply not a 'true democrat', and probably drink blood too !

Personally I've posted several times, that any corruption should be exposed being a good thing, from the military-appointed government era or since, but not much is shown. The 'light of day' is an excellent, and much-needed, disinfectant.

If only the Red-Shirts themselves were as keen or successful, as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends, the publicity could only help reduce corruption. But perhaps this is not high on Takki's priority-list ?

"as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends,"

The PAD exposed dodgy practices?

[Ricardo]

"as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends,"

The PAD exposed dodgy practices?

Indeed, I'm recalling their rallies in 2005 and 2006, and the VCDs they used to put out, which the government-of-the-day did their best to block, as there was simply too much dirt to brush under the carpet. As one might expect from any government which had been in power for 5 years by then.

I agree with Steve2UK that this would be probably be a more-productive way to weaken the current government, and reduce the temptation to blatant corruption, if only the PTP & UDD weren't so obsessed with something else. They need to get their priorities sorted - they're supposed to be there to help the country, not just one man !

[caf]

"as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends,"

The PAD exposed dodgy practices?

Indeed, I'm recalling their rallies in 2005 and 2006, and the VCDs they used to put out, which the government-of-the-day did their best to block, as there was simply too much dirt to brush under the carpet. As one might expect from any government which had been in power for 5 years by then.

I agree with Steve2UK that this would be probably be a more-productive way to weaken the current government, and reduce the temptation to blatant corruption, if only the PTP & UDD weren't so obsessed with something else. They need to get their priorities sorted - they're supposed to be there to help the country, not just one man !

Thanks for that information. I agree also your point about helping the country. Far too many comments on personalities rather than issues.

[h90]

"as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends,"

The PAD exposed dodgy practices?

Indeed, I'm recalling their rallies in 2005 and 2006, and the VCDs they used to put out, which the government-of-the-day did their best to block, as there was simply too much dirt to brush under the carpet. As one might expect from any government which had been in power for 5 years by then.

I agree with Steve2UK that this would be probably be a more-productive way to weaken the current government, and reduce the temptation to blatant corruption, if only the PTP & UDD weren't so obsessed with something else. They need to get their priorities sorted - they're supposed to be there to help the country, not just one man !

look at the people at PTP...most of them are semi-criminals, mafiosi. One of the worse Chalerm with his son who murdered someone story.....Before Samak a mass murder and terrible liar. That aren't people who have the brain or understanding for any productive way.

[caf]

"as the PAD-of-old, at exposing dodgy-practices by government and its friends,"

The PAD exposed dodgy practices?

Indeed, I'm recalling their rallies in 2005 and 2006, and the VCDs they used to put out, which the government-of-the-day did their best to block, as there was simply too much dirt to brush under the carpet. As one might expect from any government which had been in power for 5 years by then.

I agree with Steve2UK that this would be probably be a more-productive way to weaken the current government, and reduce the temptation to blatant corruption, if only the PTP & UDD weren't so obsessed with something else. They need to get their priorities sorted - they're supposed to be there to help the country, not just one man !

look at the people at PTP...most of them are semi-criminals, mafiosi. One of the worse Chalerm with his son who murdered someone story.....Before Samak a mass murder and terrible liar. That aren't people who have the brain or understanding for any productive way.

I respect your 6437 posts but not sure what a SEMI-criminal is, but whatever, why are only PTP people in this category of criminals and mafiosi. The rest are angeli. ?

Edited December 4, 2009 by caf

[xminator]

So, why have not The Gov ... ehem The Nation mentioned Thaksins visit to Russia? Suthep not so keen on bullying Russia maybe? Much easier to pick a fight with its much smaller neighbour?

[rixalex]

<snip>

As clausewitz has taken to labelling people Thaksin haters, i guess it's ok to label him a Thaksin lover?

<snip>

Illogical, Captain. For one thing he seems to have been referring to a category and not an individual; if you're looking to reciprocity as justification, you'd likewise refer only to a category - and not label an individual.

With respect, I don't see much difference Steve. If the labeling of an individual makes one uncomfortable, i would have thought that the labeling of a group of individuals (category as you call it) was certainly no better, if not worse. Whilst it might be possible to develop quite a good understanding of the way one person thinks, to pretend to know how a whole group of people thinks is foolish.

[Samuian]

it's about time someone banns all news reports on Mr.Takki, it's entirely in his very own interests anyway!

A couple of month's and he is history!

[Steve2UK]

@ rixalex - re Post #114 [apologies for this route - for some reason replying to your post just brings up my earlier post and not yours]

Labeling individuals is by definition not anonymous - whereas labeling just a category (grouping of un-named individuals) plainly is anonymous. Different matter, of course, if I say " that bunch of x-lovers/haters like Steve2UK, rixalex, Charlie Farnesbarnes......." etc. As I went on to say in that earlier post, I find both approaches unhelpful. You call the second "no better, if not worse" than the first - IMO not so very different from my own take. I deplore both for the reasons I gave. I'll take that a stage further: IMO dismissing what someone says even if and simply because he/she is a self-acknowledged supporter of "xyz" goes nowhere.

[rixalex]

@ rixalex - re Post #114 [apologies for this route - for some reason replying to your post just brings up my earlier post and not yours]

Labeling individuals is by definition not anonymous - whereas labeling just a category (grouping of un-named individuals) plainly is anonymous. Different matter, of course, if I say " that bunch of x-lovers/haters like Steve2UK, rixalex, Charlie Farnesbarnes......." etc. As I went on to say in that earlier post, I find both approaches unhelpful. You call the second "no better, if not worse" than the first - IMO not so very different from my own take. I deplore both for the reasons I gave. I'll take that a stage further: IMO dismissing what someone says even if and simply because he/she is a self-acknowledged supporter of "xyz" goes nowhere.

Agreed.

[caf]

it's about time someone banns all news reports on Mr.Takki, it's entirely in his very own interests anyway!

A couple of month's and he is history!

Keeping him in the public eye is not harming him. And remember Thais are great at sitting on fences. They can never then be completely off-side. Mixed metaphors but true.

A couple of months and he's history. Some have been saying that since 2006

A better strategy by his ennemies might have been to not give him such a wide press. But to publish bias is going to be seen for what it is.

[animatic]

I wonder what that corruption index would be this year if he was incarcerated and serving a 30 year prison sentence (obviously based on convictions of his other pending corruption charges).

When people see someone openly skirting the law, they are more prone to skirt the same law themselves. It's not until that person is held responsible will be people sit up and take notice that corruption is bad. It'd be terrific to see him come back and face that sort of time in jail. You'd see that corruption index drop like a rock.

How spectacularly naive.It wouldn't make any difference of course.Corruption is pervasive in a very high degree in all aspects of Thai life including the corporate world politics, the military and the bureaucracy.A notoriously corrupt politician serves in a high position in the current government.It doesn't need Thaksin's presence to make an example of corruption.There are more than enough enough targets right here in Bangkok.The fallacy of course in the poster's comment is that corrupt though Thaksin was, this is the excuse not the real motive for the elite's hatred of him.

Have you ever seen any of the Thaksin haters question how General Sonthi (the leader of the coup against Thaksin) became a millionairre on his soldiers salary, just as an example.

Same way most other generals become BAHT millionaires,

side deals and the endemic corruption from stem to stern in the country.

Sonthi is not exceptional in this regard. Just more notable because he was a coup leader.

It's far from just the elites that dislike Thaksin.

He has one section of the land that thinks he's a demi-god/savior,

the rest doesn't like him much, or dislike him actively,

or just don't care about him if their lives go on.

[LaoPo]

So, why have not The Gov ... ehem The Nation mentioned Thaksins visit to Russia? Suthep not so keen on bullying Russia maybe? Much easier to pick a fight with its much smaller neighbour?

Maybe the journalist, reporting on Thaksin, is on holiday?

I read that too, 2 days ago.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Same way most other generals become BAHT millionaires,

side deals and the endemic corruption from stem to stern in the country.

You may easily change that into US$ Millionaires.

30 years ago I already met 2 nice high-so Army families in Phuket, Patong beach to be exact.

The Ladies were running the hotel operations the families owned and the Army Gents were flying up and down for the weekends from BKK, in their uniform, gun on the hip IN the plane where I met one of the chaps.

BAHT Millionaires.... a Million Baht is is lousy € 20K or US$ 30K.

Most Thai generals laugh about that; it's weekend pocket money.

LaoPo

[SpoliaOpima]

There is much more to the reds than just one man.

Are you sure about that? Seems to me that the reds are totaly about that one man...

....as are their counterparts, the yellow faction.

But a much better man.

[Asa]

Thaksin, who??

[TAWP]

I like turtles.