Is Avoiding Chiang Mai A Good Idea?

[phupaman]

caf.

I think he mean's Thai people with enough common sense not to sell thailand down the river for money.

And enough brains to recognise people who only follow the ex pm for money, no matter they always wear red

phupaman

[termad]

caf.

I think he mean's Thai people with enough common sense not to sell thailand down the river for money.

And enough brains to recognise people who only follow the ex pm for money, no matter they always wear red

phupaman

If you had been one of the Rural Poor and somebody had come along asked for your support and said that he would improve your living standards and then actually not only made good on his promises but gave you access to medical treatment, help with school fees and uniforms, a chance to join/sell to OTOP and make some money and at the time actually lay the basis for a Social Security Scheme would you have voted and for him and then felt extremely loyal to him as the first person who had cared about you - no matter what his motives? I think you would have done.

[TAWP]

Newin is a banned TRT politician and all of his forty 'friends' were elected PPP (TRT) MPs - what on earth are you talking about?

PPP doesn't exist anymore, the party split [dissolved, all members split into clearer faction lines] and they set up several new parties. One of the factions that ended up in a separate party decided to cross the floor.

But what I am talking about, that you seem unable to comprehend, is that in your post you rant about Newin being a bad man (he is!) and how bad the Democrats are for dealing with him. Do you also think PPP (and TRT) was equally bad for dealing with Newin?

Edited December 5, 2009 by TAWP

[nonghoidave]

"At the end of the day, however, Chiang Mai is now separated from Bangkok and Thailand, in the hands of

goons, thugs and other assorted insurrectionists. Why are tourists now going to visit a city controlled by violent minded anti government factions? "

Don't get up to Chiang Mai much, eh?

As if any tourist not reading your alarmist post would have a clue about Thai political intrigue and gossip.

I'll be going out for a walk to have some Gang Kaew Wan Gai soon, will walk alone down dark streets, and I can guarantee I won't see and "goons, thugs or other assorted insurrectionists" while doing so. In, around or away from the tourists spots, no "goons" to be found.

We not "separated from Bangkok and Thailand" at all: flights come and go hourly.

Oh, 74C now, got to go see the smiling, friendly faces I always see on every walk, have a nice evening.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Loads of Thai tourists in Chiang Mai now, up from Bangkok for the long weekend.

Not sure if the drama queens have ever been to Chiang Mai, but there are a lot of Yellow leaning people in Chiang Mai town. Today had lunch at a restaurant that has ASTV on all the time. And it's a popular place.

[Steve2UK]

"At the end of the day, however, Chiang Mai is now separated from Bangkok and Thailand, in the hands of

goons, thugs and other assorted insurrectionists. Why are tourists now going to visit a city controlled by violent minded anti government factions? "

Don't get up to Chiang Mai much, eh?

As if any tourist not reading your alarmist post would have a clue about Thai political intrigue and gossip.

I'll be going out for a walk to have some Gang Kaew Wan Gai soon, will walk alone down dark streets, and I can guarantee I won't see and "goons, thugs or other assorted insurrectionists" while doing so. In, around or away from the tourists spots, no "goons" to be found.

We not "separated from Bangkok and Thailand" at all: flights come and go hourly.

Oh, 74C now, got to go see the smiling, friendly faces I always see on every walk, have a nice evening.

"74F", I think you mean, nonghoidave? Still, right enough in all other respects. I struggle to work out how (and why) that member comes up with this irrational guff (and a LOT more besides). Triumph of wishful thinking over reality, I guess.

[brahmburgers]

I see Newin has announced he will not continue in politics,

Newin has about as much credibility as Thaksin ...just about zero. In the same breath where he announced his break from politics, he mentioned assisting others to gain increased political clout. Methinks we'll be hearing a lot more from Newin when he decides he's got a chance for top spot. In the meantime, he'll be scheming and power-brokering non stop.

The educated people started protesting against Thaksin long before the coup.

The army would never have dared have a coup without the support of the middle class.

Thaksin only discovered the word democracy after the coup.

It means checks and balances and separation of powers- something Thaksin trampled on whilst in power and would do again if given the chance.

Hear Hear, well said.

[Publicus]

"At the end of the day, however, Chiang Mai is now separated from Bangkok and Thailand, in the hands of

goons, thugs and other assorted insurrectionists. Why are tourists now going to visit a city controlled by violent minded anti government factions? "

Don't get up to Chiang Mai much, eh?

As if any tourist not reading your alarmist post would have a clue about Thai political intrigue and gossip.

I'll be going out for a walk to have some Gang Kaew Wan Gai soon, will walk alone down dark streets, and I can guarantee I won't see and "goons, thugs or other assorted insurrectionists" while doing so. In, around or away from the tourists spots, no "goons" to be found.

We not "separated from Bangkok and Thailand" at all: flights come and go hourly.

Oh, 74C now, got to go see the smiling, friendly faces I always see on every walk, have a nice evening.

"74F", I think you mean, nonghoidave? Still, right enough in all other respects. I struggle to work out how (and why) that member comes up with this irrational guff (and a LOT more besides). Triumph of wishful thinking over reality, I guess.

The US Government issued a travel advisory against visiting Chiang Mai because radical insurrectionsts, via their spokesman on the radio, issued a bomb threat against the life of the PM should he make his scheduled visit to CM. The inviting group, the Chamber of Commerce, thus withdrew the invitation of the PM in fear of the life of the PM and the lives of other innocents because of the threats of the most violent of the red groups in the country, groups which support the violent and desperate criminal fugitive former PM Thaksin.

Yes of course there are many yellows in CM but that does not change the fact the reds seriously and realistically threatened the life of the PM were he to carry through on his scheduled visit to the city, a visit we know was cancelled because of the clear and present danger of his murder and of likely widespread violence in the city. Yes, life goes on in CM partly because TiT and partly because the PM called off his visit. Life also went on in Bangkok during the coup despite martial law being imposed because, TiT, it was Thai martial law, ie, flowers in the gun barrells of the tanks.

The bottom line is that because of threats against the life of the PM, CM is a political no go zone to the PM. Life goes on while Chiang Mai is politically off limits to the central government of the country. The fact would be denied or sought to be downplayed by only the most politically oblivious or by those with the most obvious of political agendas, ie, those who try to pretend and to give the false impression that no threats to the life of the PM occurred and that CM is the most politically normal place in Thailand. Quite to the contrary, CM because of the serious incident involving the PM, is politically the most dangerous powderkeg north of Naritawat.

[Somrak]

You'll be fine in Chiang Mai ...unless you're wearing a yellow shirt. In that case, don't come stand near me!

Fear is a bad promotion for the NW.

As long the red mob reigns chiang Mai with violence and fear, i stay away too. Less touristmoney let them may wake up!>?

[Ricardo]

Unfortunately that also punishes the Democrats & PAD-supporters up here, as well as anyone else who wants to wear a yellow shirt, and when they've already got 'Rak Chiang Mai 51' telling them what they can or can't do, in the name of 'true-democracy' or their own twisted view of what constitutes Lanna-Culture.

As Winnie and others have already said, there are plenty of non-Red-Shirts up here, perhaps because they got an early taste, of where these thugs were going ? Who knows ! But it doesn't do the PTP/UDD supporters any favours, to continue to have this extremist-group's actions, tarring their own reputation.

There's got to be a bit more tolerance, for people's differing views, from all sides. And our local tourist-economy is already quite badly hit, except for the recent rush, of baby-hippo-spotters to the local scene.

[animatic]

[part 2/2]

- the reason that they did this (most Thais believe) is that there was an awful lot of Military/Elite Family money put on the counter as an incentive. Are you saying that Abhisit had no part in this in spite of the newspaper pictures of him arm in arm with Newin Chitbob? Are you saying that the Friends of Newin behaved in a moral way? Are you saying that their bedfellow Abhisit behaved in a moral way?

Or how Newin helped PPP when it gave him power and money, but then it was ok?

Thaksin and PPP was being 'moral' when they offered the same things?

If any British/Australian/Canadian/New Zealand PM came to power under such circumstances - knowing full well that he did not have the support of the majority of the electorate - he would be honour bound to call a general election within months of assuming office. Abhisit's latest statement on this is that he could call an election within two years! A moral man?

Haha, best nonsensical part yet. You mean, just like Brown has called for an general election now? Wait, no, he hasn't? Wow...so you claim is not worthy the electricity it cost to type it out with.

People often use the word nonsensical in lieu of bafflement i.e. when they haven't a clue what they are talking about - as in this case where your knowledge of the workings of Parliamentary Democracies is lamentable.

The Thai Constitutional Democracy was brought into being in 1932 I believe and is based on the UK Constitutional Democracy.

In a Parliamentary Democracy you vote for a party (not a person) to govern the country unlike in a Republic where you have the choice to vote for a person i.e. a President.

Unlike Thailand the UK does not have written Constitution.

When Tony Blair resigned it was quite proper for the Labour Party to elect a new Prime Minister as they still had the majority of MPs in the House - that is to say they came to power because they had received the most votes from the British electorate and they still had those votes.

The new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, then had the choice of either calling a General Election or staying on as Prime Minister for the full term of the Parliament, either would be quite proper and legal. However, he obviously has to take into consideration the views of fellow parliamentarians and of the people, especially so if he feels he does not have the support of the majority of the electorate. In that case as has been demonstrated many times in the past hanging onto power is usually counter productive as the people will turn against you. I understand that Gordon Brown has said that he will call for an election before June 2010. What you find nonsensical/baffling about that I don't understand. All of this is based on Precedent and the Law which is why I commented that the UK does not have a written Constitution. (You can read about UK Parliamentary Procedure on the Net).

The Thai Democrat Party was thrashed in two elections and Abhisit has never even stood for election and certainly doesn't have the support of the majority of the Thai people.

Perhaps it would be useful to recap on how Abhisit came to power.

The sole purpose of the Military Coup was to get rid of Thaksin and the Thai Rak Thai party the reason being that he was too popular and was consider a threat to the status quo i.e. he not only actually consulted the Rural Poor he gave them things like access to medical care. Obviously, this could not be allowed to go because the next thing could be that people in rural areas would get outlandish ideas like thinking that they shouldn't live in grinding poverty to keep the Ruling Elite Families and Generals in luxury. Worst of all they might even think that just because they were the majority of the population of Thailand they had the right to elect a Government of their choice!

One of the things that the Ruling Elite and the Military Coup makers did was to change the Thai 1997 Constitution and this legacy of a Military Coup has caused strife and most probably will cause further possibly worse strife in Thailand. One of the changes was to pass an electoral law saying that if an executive of a Thai Political Party was found guilty of contravening electoral law then the Thai Political Party of which he was a member could be banned and disbanded. The history of the last year will tell you why because of that law and the misuse of that law many people in Thailand believe that they will never be able to have the government that they want and overwhelmingly voted for. Whether an amended Constitution brought in by an illegal Military Government is in fact legal in itself would not be accepted in most countries.

However, in spite of the best laid plans of the Coup Makers they had still not taken back control of the country so they resorted to the time honoured Asian method of bribery. A banned polititian by the name of Newin Chidbob had control over a group of forty elected Phue Thai MPs who were called 'The Friends of Newin'. Abhisit entered into negotiation with Newin Chidbob and on the table in those negotiations were large amounts of Thai Military and Ruling Elite money. The upshot of these negotiations was that the group of forty Phue Thai MPs betrayed the people who had elected them and in return for monetary considerations and positions in the government moved on block to support the Democrats in Parliament thus giving them the majority vote. It should have been the moral duty of those forty Phue Thai MPs to return to the constituents and explain their actions and make an offer to re-stand for election. They didn't which is why those that do pay visits to their constituencies are usually accompanied by armed bodyguards. They will never be re-elected but obviously the rewards that they received must have been large enough to make them not care about that.

The group of forty MPs, still led by a banned politician who was described in the British Press as 'notorious' then - totally disregarding the wishes of the people who had elected them - went on to form a new political party called Bhumjaithai. (I confess to being baffled when you say that PPP gave Newin and the forty thieves money. All of those forty MPs were elected Phue Thai MPs why would their own party give them money? Where did you discover that they did?)

Where does that leave us? Well we have a Coalition Government the majority of which is comprised of the Democrat Party that was thrashed in the elections (rejected) led by Abhisit who has never stood in an election as a prospective Prime Minister and is under the thumb of the Military (check the Military's last budget allocation) and the Bhumjaithai party that not only has never stood in any election at all doesn't even have the support of the people who elected its members.

Is the Abhisit government a legally elected government? To borrow your word the idea is nonsensical!

Somebody said in this thread that the socio-political circumstances makes it impossible for Abhisit to call an election. However, I can remember riots on the streets of London, very serious riots, but Thatcher went ahead and call a General Election and I think Abhisit has to do the same thing or the feelings festering in the country will boil over and Thailand will never be the same for many many years.

B. Netanyaho of Israel is the legal PM at the moment, thought he never won the majority.

Via legitimate coalition building he got the job, because the opposition did not get the job done.

As to this majority issue,

the difference is pretty darned small in the real world. If the parliamentary laws weren't so jiggered, and

essentially unfair, PPP would never have won anyway.In any case, come flames not withstanding,

PTP couldn't cut the mustard, and create a government, the Dems could.

On the moral argument... so.. mate; Where do you see this great moral weight resting in Thailand?

Where is this over arching morality as viewed/compared with by western people that you're attepmpting

to apply to Thailand politicians? Sorry mate, apples and oranges, they just don't think with the same philosophical grounding to accept your moral overlay as viable. Not at this time at the very least.

[Steve2UK]

I'd still suggest that, when you're trying to show how much support a party has with the electorate, and whether or not TRT/PPP/PTP has "the support of the majority of the Thai people" as termad claimed, it's the proportional vote, which gives the best idea.

Allowing for what hammered described, I'll defer to your take on this - and I'm sure you realise that I wasn't trying to back up termad's claims but rather just supplying qualifying detail to what you said earlier about the neck-and-neck (my paraphrase) 2007 result. Speaking of results, as hammered points out, it's ultimately the seats won that count and not the voter (proportional or constituency) percentages. As I'm sure you know, there's no shortage of examples (US, UK etc) where the losing side actually had the higher percentage of national/popular vote - and still didn't "win" (as in become president or form the next government).

Just another poll - but interesting considering who conducted it (the military )........ and how accurate their polling was in the run-up to the 2007 general election.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...0an%20election-

[hammered]

I'd still suggest that, when you're trying to show how much support a party has with the electorate, and whether or not TRT/PPP/PTP has "the support of the majority of the Thai people" as termad claimed, it's the proportional vote, which gives the best idea.

Allowing for what hammered described, I'll defer to your take on this - and I'm sure you realise that I wasn't trying to back up termad's claims but rather just supplying qualifying detail to what you said earlier about the neck-and-neck (my paraphrase) 2007 result. Speaking of results, as hammered points out, it's ultimately the seats won that count and not the voter (proportional or constituency) percentages. As I'm sure you know, there's no shortage of examples (US, UK etc) where the losing side actually had the higher percentage of national/popular vote - and still didn't "win" (as in become president or form the next government).

Just another poll - but interesting considering who conducted it (the military )........ and how accurate their polling was in the run-up to the 2007 general election.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...0an%20election-

If an election were held now I doubt anyone thinks PTP wouldnt win. The only way for them to be defeated would be if:

1. The current government get to oversee a better economic period than now. Both sides know this and the battel for timing of election is linked to this as well as other issues. This government apart from all the poltical shenanigans has had to oversee the worst economic crisis in the world for decades.

2. The government also keep their image with their base and dont get caught on too much corruption. Dem voters tend to be more sensitive to corruption issues.

3. PTP make some big mistakes

4. The red propaganda operation in thr north and Isaan collapses. Right now neither side are encouraging anmy real debate but just telling opeople what tio think and the red operation uis very effective in this in the big aprts of the country. the government havent even tried to counter it and this is where the biggest obstacle to victory is. It doesnt matter what they dio as the red propaganda operation sets opinion in the NE and N in a very Fox news style.

Even with a good economy, level playing field and real dabate PTP still looks good for the most seats. However, in light of 4 above in the real world they are very hard to beat.

[Publicus]

The country can't take another election that would return a proxy Thaksin government to power. 

Yet the analysis above is fully credible.

So 2010 looks to be a repeat of 2008. 

Happy New Year?

[termad]

Newin is a banned TRT politician and all of his forty 'friends' were elected PPP (TRT) MPs - what on earth are you talking about?

PPP doesn't exist anymore, the party split [dissolved, all members split into clearer faction lines] and they set up several new parties. One of the factions that ended up in a separate party decided to cross the floor.

But what I am talking about, that you seem unable to comprehend, is that in your post you rant about Newin being a bad man (he is!) and how bad the Democrats are for dealing with him. Do you also think PPP (and TRT) was equally bad for dealing with Newin?

I've read back through the posts and can't find where I ranted about anybody.

PPP were and Phue Thai Party are reincarnations of Thai Rak Thai. Newin was a member of Thai Rak Thai as were his forty 'Friends of Newin' who were elected MPs on a Phue Thai Party ticket. i.e. The new party Bhumjaithai was formed after they had been elected on the Phue Thai party ticket. The Phue Thai Party did not split into clearer faction lines what happened was the 'Friends of Newin' were bought with Military and Ruling Elite money for the sole purpose of putting Abhisit (who hasn't and won't win an election) into power. This was the only way that Abhisit could become PM.

So I repeat what on earth are you talking about?

[TAWP]

I've read back through the posts and can't find where I ranted about anybody.

PPP were and Phue Thai Party are reincarnations of Thai Rak Thai. Newin was a member of Thai Rak Thai as were his forty 'Friends of Newin' who were elected MPs on a Phue Thai Party ticket. i.e. The new party Bhumjaithai was formed after they had been elected on the Phue Thai party ticket. The Phue Thai Party did not split into clearer faction lines what happened was the 'Friends of Newin' were bought with Military and Ruling Elite money for the sole purpose of putting Abhisit (who hasn't and won't win an election) into power. This was the only way that Abhisit could become PM.

So I repeat what on earth are you talking about?

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

[termad]

I've read back through the posts and can't find where I ranted about anybody.

PPP were and Phue Thai Party are reincarnations of Thai Rak Thai. Newin was a member of Thai Rak Thai as were his forty 'Friends of Newin' who were elected MPs on a Phue Thai Party ticket. i.e. The new party Bhumjaithai was formed after they had been elected on the Phue Thai party ticket. The Phue Thai Party did not split into clearer faction lines what happened was the 'Friends of Newin' were bought with Military and Ruling Elite money for the sole purpose of putting Abhisit (who hasn't and won't win an election) into power. This was the only way that Abhisit could become PM.

So I repeat what on earth are you talking about?

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them.

[Publicus]

I've read back through the posts and can't find where I ranted about anybody.

PPP were and Phue Thai Party are reincarnations of Thai Rak Thai. Newin was a member of Thai Rak Thai as were his forty 'Friends of Newin' who were elected MPs on a Phue Thai Party ticket. i.e. The new party Bhumjaithai was formed after they had been elected on the Phue Thai party ticket. The Phue Thai Party did not split into clearer faction lines what happened was the 'Friends of Newin' were bought with Military and Ruling Elite money for the sole purpose of putting Abhisit (who hasn't and won't win an election) into power. This was the only way that Abhisit could become PM.

So I repeat what on earth are you talking about?

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them. 

As leader of the Democrats in the parliament, Abhisit was the logical and only realistic successor PM. Also, all who believe Abhsit tricked Newin & Co raise your hands. 

If anything, Abhisit got the bag handed to him only to be left standing there as head of the new government at a time of intense sociopolitical turmoil having occurred and the guarantee of more chaos on the way, as we saw at Pattaya/Asean and during Black Songkran as well as at numerous other rallies and threatening events such as the promise of a bomb murdering him in Chiang Mai where the worst of the reds are holed up.

Anyone who doesn't have his hand in a rice sack and would want to be PM at this juncture of Thai history didn't trick anyone. Quite the contrary, Abhisit was handed a limp and empty burlap sack which is all he's had to work with since. Witness the most recent debacle (for Thaksin and the reds) which has Thaksin the Cambodian teaming up with Hun Sen to threaten Thailand. 

Abhisit is handling this and other matters well, especially since Pattaya/Asean and Black Songkran. His visit with the G20 in the US and with Pres Obama was a success, as was the Asean summit in Hua Hin, and the Asean/Apec meet in Singapore where Abhisit at one point shared the stage only with Obama.

But back in Bangkok Abhisit is still standing there holding an empty burlap sack.

[hammered]

I've read back through the posts and can't find where I ranted about anybody.

PPP were and Phue Thai Party are reincarnations of Thai Rak Thai. Newin was a member of Thai Rak Thai as were his forty 'Friends of Newin' who were elected MPs on a Phue Thai Party ticket. i.e. The new party Bhumjaithai was formed after they had been elected on the Phue Thai party ticket. The Phue Thai Party did not split into clearer faction lines what happened was the 'Friends of Newin' were bought with Military and Ruling Elite money for the sole purpose of putting Abhisit (who hasn't and won't win an election) into power. This was the only way that Abhisit could become PM.

So I repeat what on earth are you talking about?

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them. 

As leader of the Democrats in the parliament, Abhisit was the logical and only realistic successor PM. Also, all who believe Abhsit tricked Newin & Co raise your hands. 

If anything, Abhisit got the bag handed to him only to be left standing there as head of the new government at a time of intense sociopolitical turmoil having occurred and the guarantee of more chaos on the way, as we saw at Pattaya/Asean and during Black Songkran as well as at numerous other rallies and threatening events such as the promise of a bomb murdering him in Chiang Mai where the worst of the reds are holed up.

Anyone who doesn't have his hand in a rice sack and would want to be PM at this juncture of Thai history didn't trick anyone. Quite the contrary, Abhisit was handed a limp and empty burlap sack which is all he's had to work with since. Witness the most recent debacle (for Thaksin and the reds) which has Thaksin the Cambodian teaming up with Hun Sen to threaten Thailand. 

Abhisit is handling this and other matters well, especially since Pattaya/Asean and Black Songkran. His visit with the G20 in the US and with Pres Obama was a success, as was the Asean summit in Hua Hin, and the Asean/Apec meet in Singapore where Abhisit at one point shared the stage only with Obama.

But back in Bangkok Abhisit is still standing there holding an empty burlap sack.

Good analysis. It would be interesting to have a private off the record chat with Abhisit to see how he now felt about the PM ship. He hasnt really had much backing. Maybe just enough to stay in power. Even at Songkhran he had to rely on alternative backing. There are clearly lots of people sitting on the fence

[TAWP]

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them.

You bore me already. You are even unable to answer a straightforward question posed to you. *yawn*

[termad]

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them.

You bore me already. You are even unable to answer a straightforward question posed to you. *yawn*

I have I believe answered your question at least twice. I don't know for a fact if English is your first language but I suspect it's not. If that is the case perhaps it would be better for you to refrain from posting replies until your knowledge of the language improves to the extent where you understand the point to which you are replying.

[hammered]

I've read back through the posts and can't find where I ranted about anybody.

PPP were and Phue Thai Party are reincarnations of Thai Rak Thai. Newin was a member of Thai Rak Thai as were his forty 'Friends of Newin' who were elected MPs on a Phue Thai Party ticket. i.e. The new party Bhumjaithai was formed after they had been elected on the Phue Thai party ticket. The Phue Thai Party did not split into clearer faction lines what happened was the 'Friends of Newin' were bought with Military and Ruling Elite money for the sole purpose of putting Abhisit (who hasn't and won't win an election) into power. This was the only way that Abhisit could become PM.

So I repeat what on earth are you talking about?

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them.

Would the same logic apply to those MPs of the CT, Peau Pandin etc who before the last election stood on a platform that they would not form a coalition with PPP and then promptly did? They did not consult their electors first.

Truth is in parlaimentary democracy people elect their MPs and the MPs pretty much vote how they want after that on an y issue and the voters get a chance to say what they want at the next election. In the meantime as long as a majority in the parliament vote for something it is passed. It works that way the world over. Presidential systems may be a bit different. Now that the world has the technology for direct democracy we may even see things change in the future to where representatives become irrelvent but I doubt that will be any time soon.

By the way, Thailand once had a government headed by a PM who came form a party with something like 13 MPs. Israel's PM doesnt come form the largest party. In the Ukraine the largest party has rarely if ever been out of opposition in recent years. Etc etc. In a parliamnetary system any alliance of MPs that can form a majority gets to govern. In many ways it is a far more realistic and flexible system than a presidential, as it is more able to adapt to change within a parlaimentary period than a more strictly ruled presidential system is. However, that is moving beyond Thailand. Of course both systems lack the real democracy that direct democracy would bring.

Anyway always interesting to see the same arguement repeated in perpetuity by the same people.

Edited to add: By the way what has all this poltics sub-101 nonsense that we are discussing got to do with Chaing Mai. Maybe time this thread was shut down.

Edited December 15, 2009 by hammered

[TAWP]

You clearly lack the understanding who Newin is and how he ended up in TRT.

One question then, as you try to avoid it: Was Newin, according to your belief, a good man before being part of the latest coalition?

Newin is not part of the coalition - he can't be as he is a banned politition. As to whether he is a good man or bad man the question is not material as you would get different answers to the question from Europeans to those that you would get from Thais. There are different perceptions to what is acceptable in the behaviour of polititians in both cultures. In a recent oppinion poll 40% of Thais questioned said that they did not care if their MPs were corrupt as long as their community got something out of it.

Having said that the electors who voted for the forty Phue Thai MPs who were bought by the Military and Elite had/have a right to feel cheated when those forty MPs, without consulting their electors deserted Phue Thai to join the Democrats thus putting Abhisit into power. It was also rubbing salt into their wounds when newspapers showed pictures of a smiling Abhisit with his arm around Newin's shoulder at the time that the Military/Elite were still negotiating the price for forty MPs with Newin.

The new party, Bhumjaithai, that was then formed has never stood for election and are supporting a minority party whose manifesto was rejected by the majority of the Thai people. So when Phue Thai say that Abhisit tricked his way into the PM's chair I have to agree with them.

You bore me already. You are even unable to answer a straightforward question posed to you. *yawn*

I have I believe answered your question at least twice. I don't know for a fact if English is your first language but I suspect it's not. If that is the case perhaps it would be better for you to refrain from posting replies until your knowledge of the language improves to the extent where you understand the point to which you are replying.

No, you haven't answered if you think Newin was a good man.

Maybe you should brush up on your first language some.

[Liggett]

Another question though is how do LCM51 come out of this? They may appear strong but they also have again publicised themselves as a lunatic extremist group and this time with quite a few explosives and guns.

The Love Chiang Mai 51 group (LCM51) were at it again just yesterday. Intimidating and threatening a television talk program who was trying to do an outdoor show.

Bangkok Post has an article on it.