Us Blacklists Thailand Over Child, Forced Labour

[jb5music]

What is it that makes government in the West think they can impose their own morality as to when a person should be working and earning money? I am sure they would be more proud if the kids was out stealing, starving and/or abusing drugs and dying at a young age. You know, the LA way...

One of the most significant failures regarding this 'protect the children' hysteria is that it has missed the point ('save the children'), as seen when factory-owners in India and Nepal got caught up in boycott-calls, their western customers imposing trade-rules and the companies then summarily dismissed all underage (by western standard) workers, leaving them to poverty.

Even UNICEF write of the plight caused in Bangladesh after the Child Labor Deterrence Act was introduced in the US, an estimated 50,000 children were dismissed from their garment industry jobs, leaving many to resort to jobs such as "stone-crushing, street hustling, and prostitution", jobs that are "more hazardous and exploitative than garment production". The study suggests that boycotts are "blunt instruments with long-term consequences, that can actually harm rather than help the children involved."

( http://www.unicef.org/sowc97/report/ )

More generally it's just the Quaker purist approach to trying to point a neighbors atrocities to children and humanity rights violations in general (card).

We saw the yahoo headline recently about Obama having to "talk" to China about it's human rights situation.

The reality is some smart poster wrote on another thread that in London schools rape has increased over the previous year

100%. That was a total surprise little factoid that made me ponder some. I thought then it would stand to reason that it's not just in London but in cities like where I was from - LA or Chicago or New York as well.

All major first world cities. (it wouldn't be just England) But there's no such report or mention

of any thing of this nature happening in the US schools even though in broad day light you could

research this and find this fact to be true.

The reason for this (I replied in that thread) is because of the change of makeup of the population itself.

And these are the the same soap operists responsible for thumbing their nose at small countries by harping on the

lawless/undeveloped/human rights abuse "card" so as to take the spotlight off of

themselves for doing the same thing they've been doing forever.

It just shows as a statistical rise ( the school rape percentage) proportionate to their (population) statistical rise.

Are you beginning to see who it is behind media publication headlines like that?

(From the US)

Edited November 29, 2009 by jb5music

[David006]

...first take the plank out of thine own eye....

FBIF (Foreign Policy in Focus) web site quote

Child Labor

For the past 82 years, the tire giant has operated the world’s largest rubber plantation in Liberia. Children have worked on Firestone’s plantation in Liberia for decades. Rubber workers and their families have lived in squalid and inhumane conditions since the plantation’s beginning. Management wrongly believed that the world wasn’t paying attention. But they were wrong. Unfortunately for Bridgestone Firestone, the company’s dirty little secret is out of the bag.

Bridgestone’s legal and public relations dilemmas are now numerous. Former child laborers used on Firestone’s rubber plantation in Liberia have joined together in a 2005 class action lawsuit filed against the company in the U.S. District Court in the Southern district of Indiana, Indianapolis division. The lawsuit remains in discovery phase. With virtually no coverage in the mainstream press, its progress is being kept largely out of the public eye.

[Credo]

I don't fully understand the anti-American rants. For those who want, they can continue to buy products made by child labor here in Thailand. I am sure you can also lobby your countries to continue to import these products, if you so desire.

I haven't seen a lot of child labor in Thailand in the past several years. Many years ago it was really rampant. Seldom did I go to a gas station where the workers were over 12 years old. There are the children selling flowers etc., but this is a less than before.

The problem of illegal immigrant kids working in factories is a real problem and they are trafficked, illegal and some of the industries are dangerous. Personally, I don't want to buy those products if I know where they came from.

It's also unfair to the adults who could be working in the factories and supporting their families. At least adults would have some voice and decision making about their situation. Children often don't.

[madi]

I don't fully understand the anti-American rants. For those who want, they can continue to buy products made by child labor here in Thailand. I am sure you can also lobby your countries to continue to import these products, if you so desire.

I haven't seen a lot of child labor in Thailand in the past several years. Many years ago it was really rampant. Seldom did I go to a gas station where the workers were over 12 years old. There are the children selling flowers etc., but this is a less than before.

The problem of illegal immigrant kids working in factories is a real problem and they are trafficked, illegal and some of the industries are dangerous. Personally, I don't want to buy those products if I know where they came from.

It's also unfair to the adults who could be working in the factories and supporting their families. At least adults would have some voice and decision making about their situation. Children often don't.

[/quote

The Farang living in Thailand or likely spend a great deal of time in Thailand are prone to hating their own western nations. So of course we hear the rants against anything said by any western nation when we read posts here. With that being said, if we were to say that eating food with dog waste in it were bad for you and we were a American government official, we would be reading clowns here telling us how they disagree. How they eat it and love it. HAAA HAAA

But child labor?

The Brits outlawed it before the American did. The Americans used to have little kids in factories until the 1930s. It was evil then and there and it is evil now in Thailand. I am not going to defend the government in America. It is terrible. The rich there have raped the people there in a corrupt and bought off government just as is done all over the world. It has young men being killed in two completely stupid wars.

BUT--so what---Does that mean that an American saying that child labor is wrong is incorrect?

Grow up some of you.

[dumball]

='Credo' date='2009-11-29 09:53:42' post='3171353']

I don't fully understand the anti-American rants. For those who want, they can continue to buy products made by child labor here in Thailand. I am sure you can also lobby your countries to continue to import these products, if you so desire.

I haven't seen a lot of child labor in Thailand in the past several years. Many years ago it was really rampant. Seldom did I go to a gas station where the workers were over 12 years old. There are the children selling flowers etc., but this is a less than before.

The problem of illegal immigrant kids working in factories is a real problem and they are trafficked, illegal and some of the industries are dangerous. Personally, I don't want to buy those products if I know where they came from.

It's also unfair to the adults who could be working in the factories and supporting their families. At least adults would have some voice and decision making about their situation. Children often don't.

Credo I give you credos for a well thought out post , in my thoughts , very true and to the point of the post , many here have merely rambled off about so many things not applicable as is often the norm in too many threads . The problem here on TV , is that so many use it as a soap-box on which they can stand and rail off about the west just to hide their own insecurities , what they tend to forget is , the countries they complain about are most likely the scourse of the education they obtained their half a brain from .

Citing their length of stay in Thailand seems to give them an air of superiority , they seem to feel that gives them a right to down-grade others opinions , often losing the point often mentioned that it brings the truth to their home ground , where they are fully aware of failings in the country but are not man enough to face up to that fact .

Thailand has its very good points , but also its very bad points as do most countries , one cannot point to failures in other countries to hide failures in Thailand , nor to cover up (in your own mind) ones own failures and misgivings . I found Thailand rather fascinating , but it did not satisfy what i personaly wanted as a way/means to live out my declining years and there was too much restictive behavior by government on people who could honestly improve the country both today and into the future .

Forced child labour is a vast problem the world over , many know this , but pointing fingers and constantly citing the failures of others will do NOTHING to improve the plight or education of children in Thailand .

[neverdie]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Nothing. The chineese are going to take care of it for us . I think they are going to call it, the United States of China .

[klikster]

Hm? First of all, yes, I believe that trade-barriers should be teared down globally and merchandise that people want to purchase should be allowed to be sold.

I'm sure the yabaa sellers in Burma are in perfect agreement with you.

[neverdie]

Okay, fair enuf, no rants on the USA and their politics, which seems to be everyones first response. Theres no denying that child labour exists & thailand should do their best to rid this practice. Western countries need to take responsibility for their part in this, theres always a blood trail that leads back to the all so wholesome nations who have been exploiting 3rd world (Develping nations) since the start of time.

Now you've really gone and done it! You've posted something I agree with! Spoil sport!

It was bound to happen eventuall phetaroi. Anyway, I will report to the Doctor immediately, maybe theres a cure for this .

[geriatrickid]

wow, people don't bother making an effort to read company financial statements do they?

...first take the plank out of thine own eye....

FBIF (Foreign Policy in Focus) web site quote

Child Labor

For the past 82 years, the tire giant has operated the world's largest rubber plantation in Liberia. Children have worked on Firestone's plantation in Liberia for decades. Rubber workers and their families have lived in squalid and inhumane conditions since the plantation's beginning. Management wrongly believed that the world wasn't paying attention. But they were wrong. Unfortunately for Bridgestone Firestone, the company's dirty little secret is out of the bag.

Bridgestone's legal and public relations dilemmas are now numerous. Former child laborers used on Firestone's rubber plantation in Liberia have joined together in a 2005 class action lawsuit filed against the company in the U.S. District Court in the Southern district of Indiana, Indianapolis division. The lawsuit remains in discovery phase. With virtually no coverage in the mainstream press, its progress is being kept largely out of the public eye.

Nice reference to Firestone. What's your point? Are you aware that Bridgestone purchased Firestone 21 years ago? Bridgestone Firestone is a Japanese owned and controlled company. I suggest you bring your concerns to the attention of Shoshi Arakawa, Chairman of the Board, CEO and President, 10-1 Kyobashi 1-chome, Chuo-ku, Tokyo, 104-8340, Japan. You do understand why the lawsuit was brought in the USA and not Japan right? It's called most favourable jurisdiction shopping. Because US commercial law tends to favour the oppressed, plaintiffs would obviously seek redress in the USA and not in Japan where the courts are not known for a sympathetic stance on such complaints. Bridgestone has significant assets in the USA, but the US operations restrict themselves to the Americas.

[Jingthing]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Wait until your empire declines as empires have through the ages.

And what will replace it?

In any event, of course all empires decline. However, nobody really knows whether the American empire will fade next year or 300 years from now, now do they?

[caf]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Wait until your empire declines as empires have through the ages.

And what will replace it?

In any event, of course all empires decline. However, nobody really knows whether the American empire will fade next year or 300 years from now, now do they?

When did America become an empire. Though I agree it acts like one.

[LomSak27]

THailand imposes high tariffs on a number of imports. It's their business. So why should the US behave any differently?

For all you Empire theorists, take a look at thai US trade balance. Now who is getting the better of who - DOH!

[Jingthing]

THailand imposes high tariffs on a number of imports. It's their business. So why should the US behave any differently?

For all you Empire theorists, take a look at thai US trade balance. Now who is getting the better of who - DOH!

Right, it is not a good sign, but only history will tell us if that is a temporary glitch or not. Of course most of the world may pray for the downfall, but that doesn't mean their prayers will be answered anytime soon.

[Publicus]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Nothing. The chineese are going to take care of it for us . I think they are going to call it, the United States of China .

Make that the People's Republic of the United States of China, an authoritarian Orwellian dictatorship of the China Communist Party, which forbids the people of the PRC receiving any "foreign" television or radio, newspapers, magazines and which controls and directs the thoughts of the population, controls their movement, employment, choice of major at university, censors the internet, returns captured refugees from North Korea to be executed by Kim Jong Il's mongrel regime, works its population 10 hours a day six days a week for meager pay and no benefits, no unemployment compensation programs, a shabby medical care system and services its people have to pay 100% to receive and in which its doctors gripe, shirk and complain, no pension retirement system, has a Public Security Bureau to spy on its population 24/7 and a GDP per capita of USD$3,000.........shall I continue to those who glory in the idea of a People's Republic of China having some modest ascendancy while 50% of its population lives in the countryside on less than USD$2 per day?

Yeah, the PRC is going to smite the USA! The PRC are invested in the USA to the tune of USD $2 trillion in foreign reserves, which means the PRC government has USD $2 trillion less to spend domestically and is dependent on the stability and future of the USD while simultaneously pegging the RMB to it, putting everyone in the same boat.

My bank in the US, the privately owned Bank of America just bought 20% of the China Construction Bank but only after CCB with BoA finally became the first Chinese owned bank to meet international banking standards. As part of the deal, HSBC subsequently also bought 20% of CCB. Microsoft just won a big censorship battle against the PRC Communist Party government. Want to hear more?

[phetaroi]

People don't really question statements coming from guys like Cheney...

Actually, there are few people alive on this planet whose statements have been questioned more than Cheney's.

[phetaroi]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Very interesting. Thank you for posting the link.

[Jingthing]

Chimerica exists and dominates the entire world. The Chinese position is not nearly as strong as most people assume.

[phetaroi]

Now you've really gone and done it! You've posted something I agree with! Spoil sport!

It was bound to happen eventuall phetaroi. Anyway, I will report to the Doctor immediately, maybe theres a cure for this .

I'm glad you acknowledge that you need to be cured and not me!

[dumball]

'klikster' date='2009-11-29 10:59:33' post='3171465']'TAWP' post='3169794' date='2009-11-28 14:42:12']Hm? First of all, yes, I believe that trade-barriers should be teared down globally and merchandise that people want to purchase should be allowed to be sold.

I'm sure the yabaa sellers in Burma are in perfect agreement with you.

Tawp , you almost have finaly got the message here , it is people protesting the import of goods originating from CHILD FORCED LABOUR that they do not wish to purchase that this thread is about , not your own personal whimsical view of what adults can or cannot do , that is what trade barriers are partialy about .

Incidentaly folks , practicaly this whole page had nothing to do with the subject at hand , please stop the denigration of other countries and post about how this thread affects THAILAND .

[Publicus]

Chimerica exists and dominates the entire world. The Chinese position is not nearly as strong as most people assume.

PRChina is in a hugely weak position vis a vis the US and the leaders of the ruling Communist Party of China know the fact and always have known the fact. The weaknesses of economy, government and politics, education, social justice etc etc will continue indefinitely. It is because of the inherent weakness of PRChina that its leaders from Mao to Deng Xiao Peng to Jiang Zemin have advocated crushing the US by economic and, if possible eventually, by military means.

However, under the present leaders, Hu Jin Tao as pres and Wen Jai Bao as PM, the PRC has moderated its armegeddon like views more towards interdependence and cooperation. Hu and Wen know that China and the US are inextricably connected, so tend towards the view of beyond there being a G-20 and a G-7, there in fact is a G-2 of the world, the US and PRChina. (Wen Jai Bao was in Tienaman Square in 1989 expressing sympathy with the students and their supporters among the general population of Beijing.)

So there presently is a humongous argument occurring daily and nightly in Beijing. The old hardliners want the (eventual, water wearing down the rock) demise of the US and Japan. The new thinkers, the "princelings" as they are called within the PRC because they are from Yuppie backgrounds (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong), advocate PRChina being liberalized economically and politically. These two sides presently are nonstop red faced roaring at one another day and night, seven days a week in Beijing so it's intense, the outcome remains unclear.

The princelings argue that Obama means the people of the US can be led to cooperate, that there is a connection to China in US culture from Nixon to Clinton to Obama, while the Old Guard argue that Reagan and Bush are the real USA.

I've been in the PRC only two years but in my teaching position I see a generational difference which is the direct consequence of the loss of the CPC's moral authority after the Tienamen Massacre in which supposedly comrad Chinese killed other Chinese. Adults whose beliefs were conditioned pre-Tienamen are hard liners, while younger ones educated/indoctrinated since are open to the USA and quite so the younger they are. Post Tienamen Chinese obey but don't respect or like the CPC, they accept and follow because they know the consequence of doing otherwise.

There also is a huge difference in the prosperity of Chinese within the PRC, with Beijing, Shainghai and Guangdong province adjacent to Hong Kong being far more developed than the rest of the country. Guangdong province likes the model of Hong Kong and Taiwan, their democracy especially so would happily spearate into an independent sovereign state with democracy except for the fact of Tienamen Square 1989.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Publicus

[Bagwan]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Wait until your empire declines as empires have through the ages.

And what will replace it?

In any event, of course all empires decline. However, nobody really knows whether the American empire will fade next year or 300 years from now, now do they?

One factor of course will be whether another of the Bush ilk buy/cheat/bludgeon their way into the White House.

[caf]

Chimerica exists and dominates the entire world. The Chinese position is not nearly as strong as most people assume.

PRChina is in a hugely weak position vis a vis the US and the leaders of the ruling Communist Party of China know the fact and always have known the fact. The weaknesses of economy, government and politics, education, social justice etc etc will continue indefinitely. It is because of the inherent weakness of PRChina that its leaders from Mao to Deng Xiao Peng to Jiang Zemin have advocated crushing the US by economic and, if possible eventually, by military means.

However, under the present leaders, Hu Jin Tao as pres and Wen Jai Bao as PM, the PRC has moderated its armegeddon like views more towards interdependence and cooperation. Hu and Wen know that China and the US are inextricably connected, so tend towards the view of beyond there being a G-20 and a G-7, there in fact is a G-2 of the world, the US and PRChina. (Wen Jai Bao was in Tienaman Square in 1989 expressing sympathy with the students and their supporters among the general population of Beijing.)

So there presently is a humongous argument occurring daily and nightly in Beijing. The old hardliners want the (eventual, water wearing down the rock) demise of the US and Japan. The new thinkers, the "princelings" as they are called within the PRC because they are from Yuppie backgrounds (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong), advocate PRChina being liberalized economically and politically. These two sides presently are nonstop red faced roaring at one another day and night, seven days a week in Beijing so it's intense, the outcome remains unclear.

The princelings argue that Obama means the people of the US can be led to cooperate, that there is a connection to China in US culture from Nixon to Clinton to Obama, while the Old Guard argue that Reagan and Bush are the real USA.

I've been in the PRC only two years but in my teaching position I see a generational difference which is the direct consequence of the loss of the CPC's moral authority after the Tienamen Massacre in which supposedly comrad Chinese killed other Chinese. Adults whose beliefs were conditioned pre-Tienamen are hard liners, while younger ones educated/indoctrinated since are open to the USA and quite so the younger they are. Post Tienamen Chinese obey but don't respect or like the CPC, they accept and follow because they know the consequence of doing otherwise.

There also is a huge difference in the prosperity of Chinese within the PRC, with Beijing, Shainghai and Guangdong province adjacent to Hong Kong being far more developed than the rest of the country. Guangdong province likes the model of Hong Kong and Taiwan, their democracy especially so would happily spearate into an independent sovereign state with democracy except for the fact of Tienamen Square 1989.

Good and factual post.

Are there parallels in your view with Thailand? Forced labour means cheap labour and seems to be the Thai business model. This is what the US is aware of in blacklisting Thailand.

(Even farang businesses play this card: often, western prices with thai labour costs = high margins. check out chiang mai foreign run pubs for example though true of Thailand generally)

[TAWP]

Hm? First of all, yes, I believe that trade-barriers should be teared down globally and merchandise that people want to purchase should be allowed to be sold.

I'm sure the yabaa sellers in Burma are in perfect agreement with you.

Since I am also for the de-criminalization of drug-usage, I am sure they are.

But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[neverdie]

Well I think hypocrisy is a typical aspect of human nature, and Americans are quite human. Considering the theory/myth of "American exceptionalism" may shed some light on this topic --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

The idea of American exceptionalism may indeed be something rather recently embraced by American neocons, but actually I feel the vast majority of Americans of all political viewpoints harbor the feeling that we are somehow special and superior. It is also understandable that this would piss off other nationalities. Oh well, what are you going to do about it?

Nothing. The chineese are going to take care of it for us . I think they are going to call it, the United States of China .

Make that the People's Republic of the United States of China, an authoritarian Orwellian dictatorship of the China Communist Party, which forbids the people of the PRC receiving any "foreign" television or radio, newspapers, magazines and which controls and directs the thoughts of the population, controls their movement, employment, choice of major at university, censors the internet, returns captured refugees from North Korea to be executed by Kim Jong Il's mongrel regime, works its population 10 hours a day six days a week for meager pay and no benefits, no unemployment compensation programs, a shabby medical care system and services its people have to pay 100% to receive and in which its doctors gripe, shirk and complain, no pension retirement system, has a Public Security Bureau to spy on its population 24/7 and a GDP per capita of USD$3,000.........shall I continue to those who glory in the idea of a People's Republic of China having some modest ascendancy while 50% of its population lives in the countryside on less than USD$2 per day?

Yeah, the PRC is going to smite the USA! The PRC are invested in the USA to the tune of USD $2 trillion in foreign reserves, which means the PRC government has USD $2 trillion less to spend domestically and is dependent on the stability and future of the USD while simultaneously pegging the RMB to it, putting everyone in the same boat.

My bank in the US, the privately owned Bank of America just bought 20% of the China Construction Bank but only after CCB with BoA finally became the first Chinese owned bank to meet international banking standards. As part of the deal, HSBC subsequently also bought 20% of CCB. Microsoft just won a big censorship battle against the PRC Communist Party government. Want to hear more?

Completely up to you, but just wait, I will go get my violin, its a small one and I can play along as you whine, woops I mean post.

[bonobo]

What is it that makes government in the West think they can impose their own morality as to when a person should be working and earning money? I am sure they would be more proud if the kids was out stealing, starving and/or abusing drugs and dying at a young age. You know, the LA way...

In this case, the US is not "imposing their (its) own morality" on another nation. It is imposing its morality on its own buy practices.  I don't see it coming to Thailand and trying to force a change.

Personally, I have seen what the enforcement of child labor laws in foreign-owned companies in the developing world has done, and I agree that this is a tricky question of what is right and wrong.  What often happens is that instead of going to school, children who used to be employed in factories are stuck with begging, digging through dumps, or working in agriculture instead.

But that does not mean that countries such as the US don't have the right to restrict imports of goods which they feel are made by children, just as countries restrict the import of goods made by convicts, repressive regimes, or which are made in ways deemed environmentally harmful.

[klikster]

Since I am also for the de-criminalization of drug-usage, I am sure they are.

But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Actually, it has everything to do with the topic at hand.

Any sovereign nation has the right to control what products are imported for sale. Part of that right is the designation of standards for materials, supply, manufacturing, labor, etc.

You seem to be of the opinion that any sovereign nation should be required to allow the import and sale of any item that anyone wants to export. That's a pretty silly concept, IMO.

How do you feel about free international trade in nuclear weapons?

[Publicus]

Chimerica exists and dominates the entire world. The Chinese position is not nearly as strong as most people assume.

PRChina is in a hugely weak position vis a vis the US and the leaders of the ruling Communist Party of China know the fact and always have known the fact. The weaknesses of economy, government and politics, education, social justice etc etc will continue indefinitely. It is because of the inherent weakness of PRChina that its leaders from Mao to Deng Xiao Peng to Jiang Zemin have advocated crushing the US by economic and, if possible eventually, by military means.

However, under the present leaders, Hu Jin Tao as pres and Wen Jai Bao as PM, the PRC has moderated its armegeddon like views more towards interdependence and cooperation. Hu and Wen know that China and the US are inextricably connected, so tend towards the view that beyond a G-20 and a G-7, there in fact is a G-2 of the world, the US and PRChina. (Wen Jai Bao was in Tienaman Square in 1989 expressing sympathy with the students and their supporters among the general population of Beijing.)

So there presently is a humongous argument occurring daily and nightly in Beijing. The old hardliners want the (eventual, water wearing down the rock) demise of the US and Japan. The new thinkers, the "princelings" as they are called within the PRC because they are from Yuppie backgrounds (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong), advocate PRChina being liberalized economically and politically. These two sides presently are nonstop red faced roaring at one another day and night, seven days a week in Beijing so it's intense, the outcome remains unclear.

The princelings argue that Obama means the people of the US can be led to cooperate, that there is a connection to China in US culture from Nixon to Clinton to Obama, while the Old Guard argue that Reagan and Bush are the real USA.

I've been in the PRC only two years but in my teaching position I see a generational difference which is the direct consequence of the loss of the CPC's moral authority after the Tienaman Massacre in which supposedly comrad Chinese killed other Chinese. Adults whose beliefs were conditioned pre-Tienamen are hard liners, while younger ones educated/indoctrinated since are open to the USA and quite so the younger they are. Post Tienamen Chinese obey but don't respect or like the CPC, they accept and follow because they know the consequence of doing otherwise.

There also is a huge difference in the prosperity of Chinese within the PRC, with Beijing, Shainghai and Guangdong province adjacent to Hong Kong being far more developed than the rest of the country. Guangdong province likes the model of Hong Kong and Taiwan, their democracy especially so would happily separate into an independent sovereign state with democracy except for the fact of Tienamen Square 1989.

Good and factual post.

Are there parallels in your view with Thailand? Forced labour means cheap labour and seems to be the Thai business model. This is what the US is aware of in blacklisting Thailand.

(Even farang businesses play this card: often, western prices with thai labour costs = high margins. check out chiang mai foreign run pubs for example though true of Thailand generally)

Few if any parallels with Thailand, which is a good question because it does point out the differences, ie, it's reasonably safe to assume there are few if any children in PRChina chained to machines in bleak and hazardous factories. In PRChina young people through their teens are considered too innocent and unitiated to be put to work except in the family store or at the market checkout counter. The need in the PRC always has been for adult workers who are also wage earners for the family. In present economic times the labor market is slow for college/uni grads but not impossible, while it's still good for high school grads who take jobs in the factories or go to work for their uncle in the booming construction industry (a low paying job in PRC).

PRC doesn't allow farang owned business such as pubs or shops because the population themselves want their own businesses and the government wants that entrepreneurship (and in reality has to meet the demand of its own people for it).

A wealthy province (relatively) such as Guangdong (Canton) next to Hong Kong does 'import' cheap labor from places such as the Muslim XinJiang province in the far west, where the Muslim Ughurs recently rioted, both as cheap labor and to reduce the Muslim population numbers there while sending Han Chinese to XinJiang as part of the takover of the place. The recent riots in XinJiang were an extension of brawls that originated in Guangdong factories between such 'imported' Ughur Muslims and the local factory workers (who aren't much Han either) over equal wages for the Ughers (and the local women).

Chinese who migrate to the city from the countryside are older teens or adults who either quickly find jobs or already had jobs arranged for them. Children are looked after, supervised by family members and not on the loose begging, nor do many Chinese children run away from home to find themsleves beggars or prostituting. If you are begging in the city, or don't have a job in the city or don't know anyone who can house you, you return to the pitts of the countryside either voluntarily or involuntarily as the Public Safety Bureau (ordinary police) collect you and deposit you there. Because of this strict government policy, I've never seen a beggar whether child or adult.

Chinese from the countryside who travel to work in the city hardly ever become sex workers because if you're an economic migrant within the PRC you usually have documents to prove it. To me the 'forced labor' in PRChina is the 10-12 hour workday six days a week the Chinese have at low pay and no benefits, which I'd suspect would cause Marx to turn over in his grave. One Saturday evening my gf plopped into bed from work groaning she was so tired. I asked (again) about the grueling work schedule, to which she said "China's a poor country."

[caf]

Chimerica exists and dominates the entire world. The Chinese position is not nearly as strong as most people assume.

PRChina is in a hugely weak position vis a vis the US and the leaders of the ruling Communist Party of China know the fact and always have known the fact. The weaknesses of economy, government and politics, education, social justice etc etc will continue indefinitely. It is because of the inherent weakness of PRChina that its leaders from Mao to Deng Xiao Peng to Jiang Zemin have advocated crushing the US by economic and, if possible eventually, by military means.

However, under the present leaders, Hu Jin Tao as pres and Wen Jai Bao as PM, the PRC has moderated its armegeddon like views more towards interdependence and cooperation. Hu and Wen know that China and the US are inextricably connected, so tend towards the view that beyond a G-20 and a G-7, there in fact is a G-2 of the world, the US and PRChina. (Wen Jai Bao was in Tienaman Square in 1989 expressing sympathy with the students and their supporters among the general population of Beijing.)

So there presently is a humongous argument occurring daily and nightly in Beijing. The old hardliners want the (eventual, water wearing down the rock) demise of the US and Japan. The new thinkers, the "princelings" as they are called within the PRC because they are from Yuppie backgrounds (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong), advocate PRChina being liberalized economically and politically. These two sides presently are nonstop red faced roaring at one another day and night, seven days a week in Beijing so it's intense, the outcome remains unclear.

The princelings argue that Obama means the people of the US can be led to cooperate, that there is a connection to China in US culture from Nixon to Clinton to Obama, while the Old Guard argue that Reagan and Bush are the real USA.

I've been in the PRC only two years but in my teaching position I see a generational difference which is the direct consequence of the loss of the CPC's moral authority after the Tienaman Massacre in which supposedly comrad Chinese killed other Chinese. Adults whose beliefs were conditioned pre-Tienamen are hard liners, while younger ones educated/indoctrinated since are open to the USA and quite so the younger they are. Post Tienamen Chinese obey but don't respect or like the CPC, they accept and follow because they know the consequence of doing otherwise.

There also is a huge difference in the prosperity of Chinese within the PRC, with Beijing, Shainghai and Guangdong province adjacent to Hong Kong being far more developed than the rest of the country. Guangdong province likes the model of Hong Kong and Taiwan, their democracy especially so would happily separate into an independent sovereign state with democracy except for the fact of Tienamen Square 1989.

Good and factual post.

Are there parallels in your view with Thailand? Forced labour means cheap labour and seems to be the Thai business model. This is what the US is aware of in blacklisting Thailand.

(Even farang businesses play this card: often, western prices with thai labour costs = high margins. check out chiang mai foreign run pubs for example though true of Thailand generally)

Few if any parallels with Thailand, which is a good question because it does point out the differences, ie, it's reasonably safe to assume there are few if any children in PRChina chained to machines in bleak and hazardous factories. In PRChina young people through their teens are considered too innocent and unitiated to be put to work except in the family store or at the market checkout counter. The need in the PRC always has been for adult workers who are also wage earners for the family. In present economic times the labor market is slow for college/uni grads but not impossible, while it's still good for high school grads who take jobs in the factories or go to work for their uncle in the booming construction industry (a low paying job in PRC).

PRC doesn't allow farang owned business such as pubs or shops because the population themselves want their own businesses and the government wants that entrepreneurship (and in reality has to meet the demand of its own people for it).

A wealthy province (relatively) such as Guangdong (Canton) next to Hong Kong does 'import' cheap labor from places such as the Muslim XinJiang province in the far west, where the Muslim Ughurs recently rioted, both as cheap labor and to reduce the Muslim population numbers there while sending Han Chinese to XinJiang as part of the takover of the place. The recent riots in XinJiang were an extension of brawls that originated in Guangdong factories between such 'imported' Ughur Muslims and the local factory workers (who aren't much Han either) over equal wages for the Ughers (and the local women).

Chinese who migrate to the city from the countryside are older teens or adults who either quickly find jobs or already had jobs arranged for them. Children are looked after, supervised by family members and not on the loose begging, nor do many Chinese children run away from home to find themsleves beggars or prostituting. If you are begging in the city, or don't have a job in the city or don't know anyone who can house you, you return to the pitts of the countryside either voluntarily or involuntarily as the Public Safety Bureau (ordinary police) collect you and deposit you there. Because of this strict government policy, I've never seen a beggar whether child or adult.

Chinese from the countryside who travel to work in the city hardly ever become sex workers because if you're an economic migrant within the PRC you usually have documents to prove it. To me the 'forced labor' in PRChina is the 10-12 hour workday six days a week the Chinese have at low pay and no benefits, which I'd suspect would cause Marx to turn over in his grave. One Saturday evening my gf plopped into bed from work groaning she was so tired. I asked (again) about the grueling work schedule, to which she said "China's a poor country."

I think when I used the word "forced" it was too strong a word. I really should have emphasised the cheap labour on which the economy has always been based. But I am not sure, for example, just how really free Burmese labourers are to negotiate a wage.

[johnnymoretti]

"If I were the Thai prime minister I would crush America."

What are you going to do, hold your breath until you turn blue?

"Thailand has never been colonised..."

Neither has the US.

"...and is greatest country in whole world!"

Not nearly.

I beg to differ on that statement about the US never being colonized:

Tensions between American colonials and the British during the revolutionary period of the 1760s and early 1770s led to the American Revolutionary War, fought from 1775 through 1781. On June 14, 1775, the Continental Congress, convening in Philadelphia, established a Continental Army under the command of George Washington. Proclaiming that "all men are created equal" and endowed with "certain unalienable Rights," the Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence, drafted largely by Thomas Jefferson, on July 4, 1776. That date is now celebrated annually as America's Independence Day. In 1777, the Articles of Confederation established a weak confederal government that operated until 1789.

What do you think the 13 colonies were birthed from???

[cdnvic]

You are answering a post made last year.