'Clockwork Orange' <deleted>?

the movie 'A Clockwork Orange' came out in the 70's if I remember correctly. Had to be 18 or over to see it. Screwed up movie for sure

What doesn’t ring true is: how did the perpetrators know where the couple were staying?

If they allege that they were too drugged up to remember anything until the following two days after the incident and the wife had to be carried out of the bar, how did the couple find their way home, bringing the alleged rapists with them?

I believe this incident really happened, but rather than it starting out in a bar, that the husband and wife were attending a party or had a party where they staying, that involved drink and drugs, which went out of control.

Perhaps the police and British consulate officials realised this and that accounts for the lack of interest.

This has tones of the UK entertainer, Michael Barrymore, when at one of his parties a few years ago, a guy was found sexually assaulted, drugged and then drowned in his swimming pool.

I think the couple should be grateful that they are still alive to tell the tale. Although tragic, it could have been worse.

Over to you, Dr Watson.

'Clockwork Orange' <deleted>?

Some journalist thought it was a good idea to use a 1971 movie that only a small percentage of readers were likely to have seen to explain a sexual attack in Thailand.

As you said, "<deleted>".

These type of crimes (rape) happen all over the world. Why implicate Thailand?

Errrrrrrrrrrrr it happened in Thailand maybe.

There are some borderline posts here. Let's keep it on topic. Thanks.

Thai visa George, you should take these comments off the net. The vast majority of them are a disgrace and I pray the couple never come across this site. All these inane conspiracies, ‘probably went to the room for coke’ Howard Miller’s pathetic rants because he missed another eastern seaboard story and the prime tw#t galaxywatcher telling us what really happened. If you weren’t so inaccurate I might have thought you’d been in the room. If you read any posts you’ll know that a great deal of the story submitted to the DMail was edited for space reasons. All the details you demand were in it.

Yesterday I spent twelve hours with the couple. Consoling them and trying to assist with their arrangements. I am in absolutely no doubt that this happened and I have to say in my 18 years working in Thailand, apart from senseless murders, this is the most shocking incident I’ve ever seen.

To the people who say this was sensationalized, I can assure it was not. The detail is even more shocking and perhaps that’s why the Mail wouldn’t go there.

Shame on you people.

And no, I'm not Andrew Drummond I am his collegue.

Why is Drummond's piece regarded as ' sensationalism '?

Evidently, the police and consular officials are now taking the attack seriously and only the deranged or terminally stupid would continue to speculate upon the authenticity of the couple's ghastly experience.

Those who see a conspiracy orchaestrated by the demon Drummond in order to tarnish the good name of Thailand ( Har, har ) are clearly unwell and indeed may be suffering from some chemically induced psychosis not entirely dissimilar to that experienced by the poor victims.

Welcome to thai visa my friend

Yes, I think the Daily Mail is probably considered too intellectual for most of the people on here.

It's not good for Thailand that these stories come out (with increasing regularity, or so it seems)

The Thai authorities should be doing some PR of their own to try and minimize the damage...

Do you think he has not given ALL the details to the authorities?

No. I don't think he has. Here is Drummond's own observation from his blog:

"Thai police are still not mentally geared up to properly handle cases involving woman and children, or sex crime in general."

Do you think it's wise to name perpetrators in the media while they are under investigation?

It's done ALL the time. The media is careful to add the word "allegedly" with every reference to perpetrators to avoid libel suits.

"Have you just disregarded that a lot of the details were sent but not published?"

What details? Of course I disregard phantom details. I laughed when I read that. If true, that just shows that the editors at the Daily Mail are equally moronic and Drummond should feel right at home there. Look at what was left in and considered important. Clockwork Orange references are more important than facts? Please.

"You seem to think it is his responsibility to provide people like yourself a full details so you can perform some kind of sick trial by Thai Visa."

You're right. As a reporter he has no responsibility to the public. They should just freely report whatever garbage they want, create fear with baseless allegations, and we should just shut up and believe them without thinking and voicing our criticism. Thai Visa is the perfect venue to discuss issues like this. This is not a "sick trial" but possibly, to correctly use your analogy, the court of public opinion. My opinions have no legal merit at all. But I will not back down to bullies who tell me to shut up.

"You are not in the FBI mate. I suggest you go back to running your bar or whatever business you own here."

You know not who I am or what I do. I have said enough to you. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

Edited November 28, 200916 yr by galaxywatcher

This is Europeans attacking Europeans so frankly it could have happened at any beach side bar virtually anywhere in the world. The Daily Mail seems to have got it 'in' for Thailand and I wouldn't mind so much if they also reported every rape that happened in London each night. A quick search of the internate reveals that rapes in London schools alone have risen by 100 pct in the last year. Needless to say that little gem was reported by the European Union Times, not the Daily Mail.

That's a wild fact. Is that true? What other percentages have changed in London schools? What other percentages of these and those are different at about the same rate? Care to take a guess?

Here is my analysis of the article:

"The couple did not wish to be fully identified. But the man, Richard, 42, remembers being forced to watch as his wife Susan, 31, was sexually assaulted by two men."

Ok. I understand that the couple do not wish to be identified. That is reasonable.

"They called the police, but when nobody went to see them, they went to a local hospital to be examined by doctors."

Which hospital? Which police officer did they speak to? What's the name of the doctor?

"Susan said the night of their ordeal began with a pleasant drink at a beach bar, where they met an Englishwoman and some Frenchmen. They stayed in their company at the bar, although at one point she and her partner left for a short time, returning to join them. It was at that point, she believes, the drinks were spiked."

Which beach bar in Koh Chang? 'Some Frenchmen'? 2, 3, 4? How many Frenchmen?

"Richard said he could vaguely remember being outside the bungalow and watching through a window as Susan was assaulted by the men."

Vaguely remembering being outside the bungalow and watching through a window is NOT the same as being FORCED to watch his wife being assaulted.

"The couple said that when they were able to complain to police 'they did not seem very interested'."

What was the name of this uninterested police officer?

"After contacting the British Embassy they were visited by a consular representative, a local Thai woman, who told them the police would not take the case seriously."

What was the name of the consular representative who represents the British Embassy who states that the police do not take matters of assault and rape seriously, especially of foreign tourists?

"A Thai Police spokesman..." Name?

"A British Embassy spokesman..." Name?

"'A member of staff from our consulate in Pattaya..." Name? Name? Name? What happened to stating facts or quoting sources in so called 'reporting'?

Ok..So we do not have a SINGLE full name in this article. Even "Richard's" story changes from being forced to watch, to vaguely remembering looking through the window.

Clockwork Orange? Not even a close comparison. Clockwork Orange depicted brutally violent rape scenes that ended in murder and permanent crippling without the use of date rape drugs but with the victims fully conscious. The film was banned in England when it was released which helped promote it's popularity. The subtext of the film is an exploration of the criminal mind and the morality of innovative 'rehabilitation' solutions.

As far as the article goes, I see it as a direct attack on the economy of Thailand designed to produce holiday cancellations without offering a single fact or point of reference to even

verify that this event happened at all. Andrew Drummond should be ashamed of himself for spewing such trash.

That is a brilliant analysis. So how could one push for facts such as names ect after such a potentially damaging report. Surely the TAT should push for facts and to investigate it for their own sake. If it was true then again i am sure the TAT would want to see such people brought to justice as would the majority of the decent people living in Thailand. Maybe even somebody could get an email for the Journalist and press on him for the facts.

I hope it's not true but more importantly i hope the relevant people persue these claims and bring the true facts to light and whoever to justice.

Edited November 28, 200916 yr by Steps

One has to say that the level of dialogue here is somewhat depressing. First, there's no reason to automatically jump to the conclusion that this report is a "tale", so let me say that I hope the victims of this attack recover fully. Second, the core point everyone seems to be missing, wonder why?, is that such a crime is possible in Thailand because many people believe that the rule of law can be easily subverted.

The last is as much the tragedy here, as the attack itself.

Regards

I've seen quite a bit of Farang on Farang crime, drugging, rape, theft, etc in my few months down south. In fact I feel i was far more in danger when around white backing communities than anywhere else..

You witnessed crime, drugging, RAPE and theft? where the hel_l do you hang out?

I find it interesting that posters (several of them very new to TV) choose this forum, and subject, to launch what looks very like a personal vendetta against Mr Drummond.

It wasn't so very long ago that he was being considered for sainthood by many of TV's finest, for his open, frank, true and unbiased reporting of the King Power "scams", and the unfortunate travails of the shoplifting couple, Mr Ingram and Ms Li.

As for you A_Traveller, intelligent analysis and cogent posting is generally not welcomed in threads such as this. Please desist.

I find it interesting that posters (several of them very new to TV) choose this forum, and subject, to launch what looks very like a personal vendetta against Mr Drummond.

It wasn't so very long ago that he was being considered for sainthood by many of TV's finest, for his open, frank, true and unbiased reporting of the King Power "scams", and the unfortunate travails of the shoplifting couple, Mr Ingram and Ms Li.

As for you A_Traveller, intelligent analysis and cogent posting is generally not welcomed in threads such as this. Please desist.

Yes, I get that feeling too. I found it interesting that when galaxywatcher quoted my post he specifically deleted the link to Drummond's blog.

Edited November 28, 200916 yr by lennois

The usual suspects and some new fans come crawling out of the woodwork to attack Drummond. How unexpected.

If the offenders left check-in details at their hotel/bungalow then it wouldn't so hard to identify them. Koh Chang doesn't have too many guests at any one time, when you nail it down by date, location, age and nationality you'd only have a few to consider. English woman and 2 or more French men.

QUOTE (jackspratt @ 2009-11-28 18:59:47) I find it interesting that posters (several of them very new to TV) choose this forum, and subject, to launch what looks very like a personal vendetta against Mr Drummond.

It wasn't so very long ago that he was being considered for sainthood by many of TV's finest, for his open, frank, true and unbiased reporting of the King Power "scams", and the unfortunate travails of the shoplifting couple, Mr Ingram and Ms Li.

As for you A_Traveller, intelligent analysis and cogent posting is generally not welcomed in threads such as this. Please desist.

Quote (Lennois): "Yes, I get that feeling too. I found it interesting that when galaxywatcher quoted my post he specifically deleted the link to Drummond's blog. "

Couldn't agree more!

Edited November 28, 200916 yr by walterego

Topic closed for moderating review

//CLOSED//

Several pages of off-topic and flame type posts have been removed.

I find it interesting that posters (several of them very new to TV) choose this forum, and subject, to launch what looks very like a personal vendetta against Mr Drummond.

It wasn't so very long ago that he was being considered for sainthood by many of TV's finest, for his open, frank, true and unbiased reporting of the King Power "scams", and the unfortunate travails of the shoplifting couple, Mr Ingram and Ms Li.

As for you A_Traveller, intelligent analysis and cogent posting is generally not welcomed in threads such as this. Please desist.

I am going to have to agree with you on this. Some very disappointing posts on here. I hope that the victims receive the right support and are able to suitably recover from what seems to be a horrid ordeal.

A quick search through the on-line Thai press turned up nothing. Anyone find anything?

Open again. Please stick to subject rather than making attacks than you.

QUOTE (jackspratt @ 2009-11-28 18:59:47) I find it interesting that posters (several of them very new to TV) choose this forum, and subject, to launch what looks very like a personal vendetta against Mr Drummond.

It wasn't so very long ago that he was being considered for sainthood by many of TV's finest, for his open, frank, true and unbiased reporting of the King Power "scams", and the unfortunate travails of the shoplifting couple, Mr Ingram and Ms Li.

As for you A_Traveller, intelligent analysis and cogent posting is generally not welcomed in threads such as this. Please desist.

Quote (Lennois): "Yes, I get that feeling too. I found it interesting that when galaxywatcher quoted my post he specifically deleted the link to Drummond's blog. "

Couldn't agree more!

I tried to leave the link to Drummond's blog in place when I responded, but I was getting an error from TV saying I am not allowed to post links, so I had to remove it. What possible motive would I have in removing the link that displays Drummond's inconsistencies? He states in his blog that the "unspeakable acts" happened in Koh Samui as I have posted before the topic was closed. Other readers dismiss that error with a shrug and a flippant "it happens", but for me, it is a yet another demonstration of extremely poor fact checking, editing, and in this case, sensitivity. Reporters live and die by fact checking. Again, if Drummond can't even name the right island where this allegedly happened, why should anyone trust anything else he says about this story, which wasn't much. Now if this event did happen, then OF COURSE my heart goes out to the couple who experienced this horror. It's just a shame their story was told by an incompetent reporter.

of course there's always plenty of attacks on the messenger when anything Anti Thailand is posted, particularly when it comes to criminal acts against foreigners. Go on attack the Daily Mail, and journalists. They will keep on presenting facts and how Thailands media is a pathetic excuse for "news reporting" and with regard to investigations by the police there's a topic of its own.

Edited November 28, 200916 yr by sunnymarky

Unfortunately, the way the information/claims are presented undercut the substance. It's hard to take seriously an article that leans heavily on sensationalistic hyperbole. As others have said, it seems the supporting information was left out. Maybe the story is true. If so, the victims have been done a disservice by turning this into a wild sex story.

When I see the mention of a Clockwork Orange all I can think of is a bunch of weird adolescents with repressed homosexual desires wearing mascara and dressed up in long johns. Sorry, but I am not very sophisticated so the reference didn't help me.

One does wonder about the criteria for posting in this forum but here goes again.

Does anyone with even a scintilla of intelligence seriously doubt that this appalling crime actually took place?

If they do, and God knows one must seriously question just how stupid you would have to be for arriving at such an idiotic conclusion, just how many of those are either motivated by a personal dislike of the journalist, Drummond, or by a desire to suppress anything that may reflect badly upon Thailand and perhaps their own agenda?

George and Webfact, thank-you for deleting some quite breathtakingly obscene posts. As I'm sure many people are interested to know the couple have returned to the UK tonight to recuperate and spend time with their families. They are planning to work with the FCO, British police, Interpol and the Thai police to bring this group to justice. One or both will return to Thailand soon to finish off giving police statements. The people who did this quite clearly thought they were above the law, because they were not cautious with their identities. A couple of the males are reasonably high profile / semi famous and will be found easily. Having spent time with the couple I look forward to that day. A Thai jail is too good for these animals.

Dormicum / Midazolam to use it's generic name is a very short acting benzodiazepine drug. There is no way they were out of it for two days unless they were given repeated doses.

This is the drug of preference that I use (when available) to sleep on long haul flights. When I say very short acting in it's tablet form it makes me sleep for about two hours on a flight, then I take another one. I have often used four of these on a 12 hour flight. They're also very addictive, if people abuse this drug I've heard of them actually taking it during the day, as crazy as that sounds, it's true - who would want to be sleepy during the day ?

stick to drinking water from a closed bottle served...

problem solved

Remembering the scene in Slumdog Millionaire, which others might not have noticed, when the fella was "refilling" water bottles, and then using "crazy glue" (alphacyanoacryate or instant dry glue) on the plastic anti-tamper ring. So maybe a "closed water bottle" is not even safe...

Edit: Sorry BuddyHolly1 I hadn't seen your post.... guess this might be even more common than I thought... best to carry a loupe (small high power magnifier)

Edited November 28, 200916 yr by jsflynn603

Thailand is fine, I lived there for 1 year with out a problem, the problem is the filth from all over the world meeting in 1 place, stay away from known sleazy places.

I am planning a holiday there in December with my Thai girlfriend :< scary stuff.

Unfortunately, the way the information/claims are presented undercut the substance. It's hard to take seriously an article that leans heavily on sensationalistic hyperbole. As others have said, it seems the supporting information was left out. Maybe the story is true. If so, the victims have been done a disservice by turning this into a wild sex story.

When I see the mention of a Clockwork Orange all I can think of is a bunch of weird adolescents with repressed homosexual desires wearing mascara and dressed up in long johns. Sorry, but I am not very sophisticated so the reference didn't help me.

That simply bespeaks a hole in your education if you are British. The book is formally recognised as an important literary work. Sadly, there is a local determination that states of ignorance such as yours should be maintained.

Two flames and the replies to it – at total of 13 posts – have been deleted.

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Maestro