Procedures To Marry Refugee Living In Bkk.

[shafraz]

Dear All,

I've been searching the forum looking for an answer to my question, but I guess I didn't bump into anything that's appropriate to my case. Let me try to keep things as simple and as accurate as possible.

I am a Sri Lankan Citizen, 29 Years old who met this wonderful girl in BKK. I've known her for sometime now and we're really close now. Until recently I wasn't interested in knowing her background and the story behind her. Currently I'm in Sri Lanka and long distance communication doesn't help much. Anyway, the bottom line from what I know is, Her ancestors are from Bangladesh and they moved to Burma decades ago. Her family has them moved to Thailand at least 20 years or more and she was born in Thailand and now 21 years old.

She has no ID card or no Passport, however she has a birth certificate and some other papers I believe, but don't know what. From what I understand she is allowed to live in Thailand, but doesn't have any real legal status. More of a Refugee eh?

Now, to the point. I would like to get married to her and take her to Sri Lanka, or perhaps take her to Sri Lanka first, and then get married. Whatever order it happens, I don't really care. She doesn't want to live in BKK, and I wanna be married to her and want to be in Sri Lanka together.

What i'm interested in knowing is, how do I make this a reality? I mean, is there a way that I could get her a Thai passport? Or perhaps temporary papers to take her to Sri Lanka? Or should I first marry her and then get her a Sri Lankan passport? Can I just marry like that? So many questions and I don't have any answers. I am just looking for a proper direction so I can plan something and start doing it and I felt there is no better forum that this one to get the answers I'm looking for.

Keep up the wonderful work.

Thanx.

[Mario2008]

You might be better of with contacting a organisation that helps refugees, such as the Burmeese Border Consortium. They will have more knowledge about this and might be in a better situation to help you with your questions.

[Crossy]

I reckon Mario is spot on, start here http://www.tbbc.org/

You have a long fight ahead, good luck

[Thanyaburi Mac]

You might be better of with contacting a organisation that helps refugees, such as the Burmeese Border Consortium. They will have more knowledge about this and might be in a better situation to help you with your questions.

Two other groups to contact in Bangkok, info below, UNHCR and IOM. They may be able to assist.

Mac

International Organization

for Migration (IOM), Thailand

The (IOM) is committed to the principle that humane and orderly migration can benefit everyone.

Head of agency: Ms. Monique Filsnoël

Chief of Mission

Address: 133 Rajanakarn Building, 18th Floor, South Sathorn Rd. Bangkok 10120, Thailand

Telephone: +66 2 343 9300

Fax: +66 2 343 9399

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.iom-seasia.org

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

UN High Commissioner for Refugees

(UNHCR)

UNHCR's mandate to provide international protection and seek durable solutions for refugees comes from a resolution adopted by the UN General Assembly.

Head of agency: Mr. Raymond Hall

Regional Representative for Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, and Regional Coordinator for South East Asia

Address: 3rd Floor, United Nations Building, Rachadamnern Nok Avenue, Bangkok 10200, Thailand

Telephone: +66 2 288 1234

Fax: +66 2 280 0555

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.unhcr.org

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[InterestedObserver]

There are several topics and posts about marrying a Burmese refugee/illegal alien or person born in Thailand of Burmese parents. Several hours worth of reading material is available on ThaiVisa. It's not imposable, but certainly very very challenging. Helps if you have ample resources.

[plaaduk]

You might be better of with contacting a organisation that helps refugees, such as the Burmeese Border Consortium. They will have more knowledge about this and might be in a better situation to help you with your questions.

She may not be really a refugee! She is a permanent resident but never been given citizenship status because she never applied for it or her parents did not apply for it.Her parents likewise maybe permanent residents but never applied for citizenship and therefore remained permanent residents.There are many such cases pertaining to people who were previously resident in commonwealth countries which were than under colonial

rule.

In some Commonwealth countries, such Stateless people are issued Certificates of Identity to enable them to travel but such certificates are issued with a re-entry permit which allows them to leave the country for a fixed period. If they exceed the period

stated they may never return to the country that issued it.

In view she was born in Thailand,it would be wise to check with the Thai Embassy in Sri Lanka whether Thailand issues such travel papers to Permanent Residents who do not qualify for citozenship yet have legal status to stay in the country.It would also be appropriate to look into Thai laws whether it allows such stateless people to apply to be naturalised citizens having been born in the country and having knowledge of the language and the way of life in the country.

If Thailand issues such travel documents, your problem would be solved by her applying for such a document and accompanying you back to Sri Lanka.I assume that she can read and write Thai.

[shafraz]

Thank you very much for the advice and insights. After reading all this one thing I clearly understand is I need to get more info about her to ensure what needs to be done next.

I am gonna have a chat with her later tonight and get answers to some of the unanswered questions like if she is really a refugee or if she's a PR. What type of papers she have and if she has any clue of her legal position in Thailand. I guess these answers would help better in analyzing the situation and finding a more appropriate solution.

As for her Thai language fluency, yes, she is very fluent in reading, writing and speaking Thai. Quite okay with her spoken English.

Tonight I would be clarifying with her things like:

- From where did her parent's come from to Thailand, and When?

- Did they have proper legal status in the country they came from.

- Was she born in Thailand and if she has a Thai birth certificate. What other legal papers does she have.

- If she is a PR or really a refugee in Thailand

Any other questions that I might want to ask to make things easier to analyze?

Thank you for all the help so far, Really appreciate it.

[Maestro]

I have seen a stateless person with a document issued by the Thai government for stateless persons (yellow cover, I believe, passport-size book) that allowed the holder of this document to travel internationally. This particular person had visa stamps for Hong Kong, China, USA, UK, Switzerland, among others. I don’t know if it was issued by the Thai passport office and if this office would be able to give information about the requirements for obtaining the document.

--

Maestro

[shafraz]

Thank you very much for the advice and insights. After reading all this one thing I clearly understand is I need to get more info about her to ensure what needs to be done next.

I am gonna have a chat with her later tonight and get answers to some of the unanswered questions like if she is really a refugee or if she's a PR. What type of papers she have and if she has any clue of her legal position in Thailand. I guess these answers would help better in analyzing the situation and finding a more appropriate solution.

As for her Thai language fluency, yes, she is very fluent in reading, writing and speaking Thai. Quite okay with her spoken English.

Tonight I would be clarifying with her things like:

- From where did her parent's come from to Thailand, and When?

- Did they have proper legal status in the country they came from.

- Was she born in Thailand and if she has a Thai birth certificate. What other legal papers does she have.

- If she is a PR or really a refugee in Thailand

Any other questions that I might want to ask to make things easier to analyze?

Thank you for all the help so far, Really appreciate it.

In addition to what I have typed above, I also remember something she or one of her friends mentioned sometime ago. She said something about they being Rohingya people, which means they are muslims who fled from Myanmar long ago, isn't it? Does this fact make things even worse?

In any case, if she was born in Thailand and holds a Thai Birth Certificate, doesn't it give her some legal status in Thailand, irrespective of what her parents are and where they're from?

Anyway, let me talk to her in a few hours and get all these clarified. Thanx.

[Thongkorn]

Thank you very much for the advice and insights. After reading all this one thing I clearly understand is I need to get more info about her to ensure what needs to be done next.

I am gonna have a chat with her later tonight and get answers to some of the unanswered questions like if she is really a refugee or if she's a PR. What type of papers she have and if she has any clue of her legal position in Thailand. I guess these answers would help better in analyzing the situation and finding a more appropriate solution.

As for her Thai language fluency, yes, she is very fluent in reading, writing and speaking Thai. Quite okay with her spoken English.

Tonight I would be clarifying with her things like:

- From where did her parent's come from to Thailand, and When?

- Did they have proper legal status in the country they came from.

- Was she born in Thailand and if she has a Thai birth certificate. What other legal papers does she have.

- If she is a PR or really a refugee in Thailand

Any other questions that I might want to ask to make things easier to analyze?

Thank you for all the help so far, Really appreciate it.

Sorry , one Big question, Where and how did she learn English.

[shafraz]

Sorry , one Big question, Where and how did she learn English.

Well, she knew a little bit of English, learnt from here and there and by working in a shop which belongs to one of her sisters. Anyway, now she goes for classes to polish up her English :

[shafraz]

Ok, here is the update:

I spoke to her last night and asked a few questions in hope to get things clarified.

1) Her parents come from Bangladesh, moved to Burma and then became nationals of Burma. They have traveled from Thailand to Burma a few instances in the past.

2) Her elder brother and younger sister were born in Burma and hold papers there, thus considered to have alien status in Thailand.

3) She was born in Thailand and has a Thai Birth Certificate. However, she isn't a Citizen and as far as she knows, she isn't a PR too. She says she has no Nationality.

4) She says she has her name on the house registration as well - she said it's registered in the District office. I really don't know what this means.

Now, based on my initial facts, and updated list, what would be the best possible thing to do? I just want to be able to take her to Sri Lanka without too much of a hassle, before, or after marriage.

Thank you so much.

[shafraz]

I wonder why nobody had replied to my last post. I wonder if this is such a complicated situation

Anyway, I was wondering, she has a Thai birth certificate, and she claims she is not a nationality of any country, doesn't that make her have some legal right in Thailand?

Also, more news, She seems to have the so called "Yellow Book". I believe this is the Tabien Baan. I am not sure. Does this help in any way? I have asked her to scan and email me both the Birth certificate and the Yellow book so I can show it to someone and consult.

What does the yellow book allow her to do, in this context? I mean, can she use it to travel out of the Thailand?

[Maestro]

I wonder why nobody had replied to my last post. I wonder if this is such a complicated situation …

Yes, it is. You are asking how to get a Thai document for a stateless person valid for international travel. This is indeed not a common situation and unlikely something that a ThaiVisa member has ever had to sort out.

If I were your girlfriend I would go the passport office and ask them for advice. After all, this international travel document for a stateless person is for travel purposes the equivalent of a passport.

An alternative would be to consult a lawyer familiar with this matter.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

… She seems to have the so called "Yellow Book". I believe this is the Tabien Baan. I am not sure. Does this help in any way? ..

This information is much too vague. What is printed on the cover of this yellow book?

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

See this page on the website of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs about the Travel Document (TD) for stateless persons:

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2630.php

The highlighting in bold in the following quoted text is mine.

ISSUANCE OF TRAVEL DOCUMENT FOR ALIENS (TD)

I. REQUIREMENT

Aliens as listed below are eligible to apply for Travel Document (TD) at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Consular Affairs, Visa and Travel Documents Division...

- Stateless persons

...

--

Maestro

[submaniac]

I wonder why nobody had replied to my last post. I wonder if this is such a complicated situation

Anyway, I was wondering, she has a Thai birth certificate, and she claims she is not a nationality of any country, doesn't that make her have some legal right in Thailand?

Nobody has responded because it is a very complicated situation. I do not know anyone on this forum who has successfully done what you need to do. Not alot of us know about it because it is very unusual.

To answer your second question, having a Thai birth certificate DOES NOT automatically mean Thai citizenship. There are alot of people like your girlfriend. Under Thai law, being born in Thailand does not give you citizenship (and this is actually also true for alot of European countries, like Austria). In order to have Thai citizenship, ONE OF YOUR PARENTS must be a Thai citizen. Then you can have Thai citizenship by birth.

[shafraz]

Maestro, Submaniac - Thank you for all the information and comments. I am not expecting a solution to come out of the thaivisa forum, I understand its not that easy, however what I was looking for was just a proper guidance and path on how to proceed, and I guess I've been getting that here

As advised, I am consulting a few other people and also working on getting things sorted via a Law firm.

I have asked her to scan and email me the yellow book so I know for sure what it is all about. I will update when I have more news.

[richmond14]

I myself was a refugee from Burma and I am kind of familiar with her situation. However, her situation is a bit different from mine because she was born in Thailand. In my case, I applied for a refugee status at UNHCR first (about 16 years ago) and the US based agency sponsoring us took care of the rest. I was issued a piece of paper from the US embassy in Bangkok good for one way entry (and exit Thailand legally) to the US. I think it is a good idea to start talking people at the SriLanka embassy. You most likely have to marry or engage her first. You need to know what kind of visa she will need from SriLanka to let her him. Once you find out about that then you take care of the Thai part. In my experience, IOM does not really deal with legal matters. They help you (medical check up..etc) only after legal issues are cleared. Again I believe TBBC only helps with taking care refugees on the border.

It is complicated but doable. Good luck.

[Paul123456]

I am not sure if they can help, but you could get your girlfriend to ring the Mirror Foundation - their Citizenship Project works with assisting many stateless people and they have stateless people on staff.

Worth a try.

http://www.tobethai.org/

053-737585

[email protected]

[Arkady]

Up until 1972 any one born in the Kingdom to parents of any nationality was entitled to Thai Nationality but Revolutionary Decree no. 337 of December 1972 put an end to that, retroactively in some cases. Many former Thai citizens by birth in Thailand became stateless or reverted to being Chinese nationals as a result but were automatically entitled to permanent residence as former Thai nationals under the Nationality Act. From 1972 until 1992 only those born to a Thai father in any country or those born in Thailand to two permanent resident parents of any nationality were entitled to citizenship. The Nationality Act of 1992 allowed those born to Thai mothers anywhere in the world Thai nationality with retroactive effect and left the provision for those born in Thailand to two permanent resident parents intact.

The above is the law on Thai nationality as it is generally understood but there is quite a lot more to it that it is not generally understood that might be of relevance to this lady's case. A cabinet resolution of 2000 covered the specific case of displaced Burmese migrants who came to Thailand before 1976. They are entitled to residency and their children are entitled to Thai nationality. This interpretation would depend very much on what documentation her parents had and when they arrived in Thailand. From what you say there is good chance that the parents have the requisite documentation, assuming they arrived before 1976. In fact this cabinet resolution may be irrelevent now following the 2008 Nationality Act. Section 23 of Act attempted to generalize all the various cabinet resolutions that had been made in favour of the different ethnic groups of migrants. Secret 23 entitles all those those who were born in Thailand but either lost their Thai citizenship in 1972 as a result of Revolutionary Decree 337, or lost their entitlement to citizenship as a result of the decree, if they were born in Thailand after 1972, to obtain Thai citizenship, if they have lived in Thailand continuously and fulfill certain other conditions, such as not being a threat to national security. I believe that in practice, or according to subsequent ministerial regulations, this applies only to those born in Thailand before 1992. You can research the position of Burmese migrants and others in this useful document produced for NGOs working with ethnic groups by the British Embassy and the FACE Foundation http://www.scribd.com/doc/20999732/Birth-R...hip-in-Thailand . You will find The Nationality Act of 2008 in the appendices to the document.

Another relevant piece of recent legislation that is not generally understood by foreigners, lawyers or district officers is the Civil Registration Act of 2008 (also in the appendices to the above mentioned document) that requires district offices to enter all foreigners, whether permanent or temporary residents, in house registration books with a 13 digit ID number. Thor Ror 13 house registration books are used to enter the details of foreigners who are not permanent residents, while Thor Ror 14 books that are used for Thai citizens and foreign permanent residents. From what you say, it seems that she has already got herself registered in a house registration book and this is an important step along the way to becoming a Thai citizen.

From what you say, it sounds to me, as if there is a pretty good chance that the lady is in fact entitled to Thai nationality under the 2008 Act (and her parents, if they are still living, to permanent residency which also entitles them to Thai travel documents). The fact that she has a Thai birth certificate that cannot be issued, if the parents have no legal status in Thailand, and even a house registration book are major positives. It will take time and a lot of persistence in dealing with government officials who are either ignorant of Thai law or just enjoy stonewalling any aliens trying to claim their legal entitlements out of a mixture of sadism and xenophobia. Most Thai lawyers are utterly ignorant of Thai nationality legislation and you would just waste your time and money in consulting them. As others have said here, specific organisations that assist Burmese migrants may be more helpful and I hope this post may give you a starting point for your research and enquiries. As far as I know applications for citizenship under Section 23 of the 2008 Nationalitly Act by those born in Thailand are handled by district offices not by the Police and Interior Ministry directly, as is the case of applications for naturalization by those not born in Thailand. I believe the process is simply an application for an full Thai ID card by those entitled to Thai nationality by birth in the Kingdom, rather than a specific application for nationality. See this article that discusses the cases of hill tribe people applying for Thai nationality under Section 23 of the 2008 Nationality Act. http://www.shieldthailand.org/index2.php?o...df=1&id=106 . Good luck to both of you.

[plaaduk]

Thank you very much for the advice and insights. After reading all this one thing I clearly understand is I need to get more info about her to ensure what needs to be done next.

I am gonna have a chat with her later tonight and get answers to some of the unanswered questions like if she is really a refugee or if she's a PR. What type of papers she have and if she has any clue of her legal position in Thailand. I guess these answers would help better in analyzing the situation and finding a more appropriate solution.

As for her Thai language fluency, yes, she is very fluent in reading, writing and speaking Thai. Quite okay with her spoken English.

Tonight I would be clarifying with her things like:

- From where did her parent's come from to Thailand, and When?

- Did they have proper legal status in the country they came from.

- Was she born in Thailand and if she has a Thai birth certificate. What other legal papers does she have.

- If she is a PR or really a refugee in Thailand

Any other questions that I might want to ask to make things easier to analyze?

Thank you for all the help so far, Really appreciate it.

In addition to what I have typed above, I also remember something she or one of her friends mentioned sometime ago. She said something about they being Rohingya people, which means they are muslims who fled from Myanmar long ago, isn't it? Does this fact make things even worse?

In any case, if she was born in Thailand and holds a Thai Birth Certificate, doesn't it give her some legal status in Thailand, irrespective of what her parents are and where they're from?

Anyway, let me talk to her in a few hours and get all these clarified. Thanx.

It is now established she is a stateless person.When I read your account, and that you are from Sri Lanka, I assumed you to be Buddhist. However,it would appear you are also a Muslim and that she is Rohingya and Rohingya are Muslims.Many Rohingyas fled Burma because they felt persecuted. They can be found in many Muslim countries in S.E.Asia., either entering illegally and staying on ,whilst waiting to be processed by UNHR representatives for placement in third countries. Rohingyas qualify for refugee status. With her ability to speak English and if she has skills, you should ask her to apply to UNHCR for recognition as arefugee and for a travel document.

The shorter route would be to use the Thai document, if Thailand issues the Certificate of Identity for stateless people to travel. However, please be sure that she should follows the re-entry visa validity if for some reason she does not wish to marry and then want to return to Thailand.I have seen stateless people ending up neither here nor there because they fail to return before the re-entry visa expires.

Such cases occur from Middle East to Europe and ever in USA.

[plaaduk]

Thank you very much for the advice and insights. After reading all this one thing I clearly understand is I need to get more info about her to ensure what needs to be done next.

I am gonna have a chat with her later tonight and get answers to some of the unanswered questions like if she is really a refugee or if she's a PR. What type of papers she have and if she has any clue of her legal position in Thailand. I guess these answers would help better in analyzing the situation and finding a more appropriate solution.

As for her Thai language fluency, yes, she is very fluent in reading, writing and speaking Thai. Quite okay with her spoken English.

Tonight I would be clarifying with her things like:

- From where did her parent's come from to Thailand, and When?

- Did they have proper legal status in the country they came from.

- Was she born in Thailand and if she has a Thai birth certificate. What other legal papers does she have.

- If she is a PR or really a refugee in Thailand

Any other questions that I might want to ask to make things easier to analyze?

Thank you for all the help so far, Really appreciate it.

Sorry , one Big question, Where and how did she learn English.

Burma was a colony of England. Hence the old generation of Burmese speak English well! This is evident in other previous colonies like Singapore, Malaysia,Ceylon now Sri Lanka,India and Pakistan.Hence she could have picked it up from her parents.

[Maestro]

The “Citizenship Manual (birth registration and citizenship in Thailand)”, to which Arkady has give a link, is very interesting. Because that site needs registration for the download, I now attach the PDF file here, but before you click on it take note that it is 5.9MB.

--

Maestro

20999732_Birth_Registration_and_Citizenship_in_Thailand.pdf

[shafraz]

I have no words to thank all of you for the extensive advise and guidance. In-fact, I'm overwhelmed by all this. You guys are simply amazing and wonderful.

Looks like I gotta lotta reading and understanding and a lot of work to do ahead, nevertheless, if it's gotta be done, its gotta be done.

Well, I come from Sri Lanka and I'm a Muslim.

I am thinking of doing the following:

1) Write to the Sri Lankan Embassy and see what options are available to me. Perhaps if I marry her, would I be able to get her a Citizenship in Sri Lanka and a Travel document from Sri Lanka. That would solve all problems.

2) Real all the suggested material and have a better understanding of the procedures and protocols so that I have a better understanding of things.

3) Speak to a lawyer in Thailand and get more advice and help? I believe they would be better equipped to help than I myself trying to do things on my own? (Any suggestions on any lawyers I should approach? I tried a search and ended up with a few firm names. Siam Legal is one I've been considering to write to, any ideas?)

4) Contact other agencies (i.e UNHCR etc) as appropriate for additional help.

I have confirmation that the Yellow Book she has is, infact the Tabien Baan. She has mailed me scanned copies of the Tabien Baan and her Birth Certificate. Everything is in printer/written in Thai, so I don't understand what it says. However, I was looking for the 13/14 digit number Arkady stated, and indeed I see a 13 digit number in the format of x-xxxx-xxxxx-xx-x.

I wonder if I should attach the scanned copies for your kind review? I'm not doing it right now as I'm a little concerned about its security and privacy, as the entire outside world can see it. However if anyone wants to have a look to understand things better, I'd be more than glad to send the images.

I'm going to do the ground work now, and visit her in the first week of January 2010. I hope to have some progress by this time and perhaps, if I'm meeting a lawyer, I'd do it in January.

[plaaduk]

Ok, here is the update:

I spoke to her last night and asked a few questions in hope to get things clarified.

1) Her parents come from Bangladesh, moved to Burma and then became nationals of Burma. They have traveled from Thailand to Burma a few instances in the past.

2) Her elder brother and younger sister were born in Burma and hold papers there, thus considered to have alien status in Thailand.

3) She was born in Thailand and has a Thai Birth Certificate. However, she isn't a Citizen and as far as she knows, she isn't a PR too. She says she has no Nationality.

4) She says she has her name on the house registration as well - she said it's registered in the District office. I really don't know what this means.

Now, based on my initial facts, and updated list, what would be the best possible thing to do? I just want to be able to take her to Sri Lanka without too much of a hassle, before, or after marriage.

Thank you so much.

The only part of the story that does not add up is this.She said her parents were from Bangladesh! Bangladesh was previously East Pakistan.East Pakistan/ Bangladesh

is Muslim country.Why migrate to Burma when Burma is Buddhist terrritory? Unless they are not Muslims but are Buddhist. In Bangladesh,there are hill tribes people called Chakmas, who are predominantly Buddhist. Their places of worship are reported to have been vandalised by Muslim neighbours and they feel persecuted.

They are predominantly found in the area of Rangamati.

From her account, her parents then moved to Thailand which is again Buddhist country.If her parents are Ronghiyas, they would have stayed on in Bangladesh or moved on from Bangladesh to either Indonesia or Malaysia and from there seek refuge in other more liberal countries as refugees through UNHCR.

Rohinghas travel with identity papers issued by their own organization and sympathetic Muslim countries extend help until such time they can be relocated by

UNHCR.

[richmond14]

Ok, here is the update:

I spoke to her last night and asked a few questions in hope to get things clarified.

1) Her parents come from Bangladesh, moved to Burma and then became nationals of Burma. They have traveled from Thailand to Burma a few instances in the past.

2) Her elder brother and younger sister were born in Burma and hold papers there, thus considered to have alien status in Thailand.

3) She was born in Thailand and has a Thai Birth Certificate. However, she isn't a Citizen and as far as she knows, she isn't a PR too. She says she has no Nationality.

4) She says she has her name on the house registration as well - she said it's registered in the District office. I really don't know what this means.

Now, based on my initial facts, and updated list, what would be the best possible thing to do? I just want to be able to take her to Sri Lanka without too much of a hassle, before, or after marriage.

Thank you so much.

The only part of the story that does not add up is this.She said her parents were from Bangladesh! Bangladesh was previously East Pakistan.East Pakistan/ Bangladesh

is Muslim country.Why migrate to Burma when Burma is Buddhist terrritory? Unless they are not Muslims but are Buddhist. In Bangladesh,there are hill tribes people called Chakmas, who are predominantly Buddhist. Their places of worship are reported to have been vandalised by Muslim neighbours and they feel persecuted.

They are predominantly found in the area of Rangamati.

From her account, her parents then moved to Thailand which is again Buddhist country.If her parents are Ronghiyas, they would have stayed on in Bangladesh or moved on from Bangladesh to either Indonesia or Malaysia and from there seek refuge in other more liberal countries as refugees through UNHCR.

Rohinghas travel with identity papers issued by their own organization and sympathetic Muslim countries extend help until such time they can be relocated by

UNHCR.

I think she is telling you a true story. Rohingyas are basically stateless persons. Their ancestors come from Bangladesh and settle in Arakan state of Burma. They are treated harshly by the Burmese military regime due to their ancestral heritage and religion (Burma is a Buddhist country.) Most of them escape to other countries illegally. No country does not really want to take them as refugee (Burma will not take them back as its citizen). You probably have heard story about Thai navy dumping Rohingyas in open sea in motorless raggedy boats. Malaysia is probably the most friendly country to Rohingyas. Her parents probably left Burma in 1988 around the same time I left Burma. We had a bloody uprising against the current regime in 8.8.88. Probably her parents are business wise people and they find a way to settle in Thailand legally--sort of. Most of Burmese like me had to find a third country to resettle.

I will find a lawyer after you gather all the information from embassy. This may safe you a few bucks.

[plaaduk]

I have no words to thank all of you for the extensive advise and guidance. In-fact, I'm overwhelmed by all this. You guys are simply amazing and wonderful.

Looks like I gotta lotta reading and understanding and a lot of work to do ahead, nevertheless, if it's gotta be done, its gotta be done.

Well, I come from Sri Lanka and I'm a Muslim.

I am thinking of doing the following:

1) Write to the Sri Lankan Embassy and see what options are available to me. Perhaps if I marry her, would I be able to get her a Citizenship in Sri Lanka and a Travel document from Sri Lanka. That would solve all problems.

2) Real all the suggested material and have a better understanding of the procedures and protocols so that I have a better understanding of things.

3) Speak to a lawyer in Thailand and get more advice and help? I believe they would be better equipped to help than I myself trying to do things on my own? (Any suggestions on any lawyers I should approach? I tried a search and ended up with a few firm names. Siam Legal is one I've been considering to write to, any ideas?)

4) Contact other agencies (i.e UNHCR etc) as appropriate for additional help.

I have confirmation that the Yellow Book she has is, infact the Tabien Baan. She has mailed me scanned copies of the Tabien Baan and her Birth Certificate. Everything is in printer/written in Thai, so I don't understand what it says. However, I was looking for the 13/14 digit number Arkady stated, and indeed I see a 13 digit number in the format of x-xxxx-xxxxx-xx-x.

I wonder if I should attach the scanned copies for your kind review? I'm not doing it right now as I'm a little concerned about its security and privacy, as the entire outside world can see it. However if anyone wants to have a look to understand things better, I'd be more than glad to send the images.

I'm going to do the ground work now, and visit her in the first week of January 2010. I hope to have some progress by this time and perhaps, if I'm meeting a lawyer, I'd do it in January.

If you are resident in Sri Lanka, you should approach the Sri Lankan Immigration authorities and find out whether you are able to obtain Permananet Resident status

for her after you marry her.You should marry her in Thailand and then return with her to Sri Lanka.No country in Asia issues you citizenship upon you marrying a foreigner.

She would qualify only for P.R. status and then would require to live in the country for a specified period, and if she picks up the language and knows more about the country, she would qualify to apply for citizenship. She may be required to take a test to see whether she knows enough of the language and culture of the country before she is bestowed that citizenship. It is therefore not automatic.

The reason for the specified period of stay is to ensure that as a married couple,

your marriage is subsisting, that you have a family, and that it is not a marriage of convenience.

b. There is no need to go to a lawyer and spend money unnecessarily. She should

approach the Thai Immigration and apply for that travel document that they issue to stateless people to enable her to travel.Should they issue her that document,ensure that she gets a re-entry permit to enter Thailand again for any reason.Sri Lanka could very well issue her an entry visa and allow her to stay only for a year and then she has to apply again to re-enter Sri Lanka.This may happen for a few years before she is granted P.R. status.Such measures are common with some Asian countries.

Should you want to try your luck with her applying for Thai citizenship and then leaving Thailand with a Thai passport, you could then engage the lawyer for that purpose. But such an approach would take time and money.Also,rules may exists that penalise a citizenship applicant if she leaves the country before her application is considered.Such application takes time to process and may even take years. Hence an experienced local lawyer dealing with such cases may know which wheels to grease to turn the small wheels which in turn, turns the big wheels!

If you are resident in Thailand,its better to talk face to face then write.Write only if you need to build up records.

Good luck!

[Arkady]

I wonder why nobody had replied to my last post. I wonder if this is such a complicated situation …

Yes, it is. You are asking how to get a Thai document for a stateless person valid for international travel. This is indeed not a common situation and unlikely something that a ThaiVisa member has ever had to sort out.

If I were your girlfriend I would go the passport office and ask them for advice. After all, this international travel document for a stateless person is for travel purposes the equivalent of a passport.

An alternative would be to consult a lawyer familiar with this matter.

--

Maestro

There is in fact a specific alien travel document issued by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs to resident aliens who have been denied a passport by their country of origin. See http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2496 . I have never known any one who applied for one. There was a big fuss in the Thai media recently because a Burmese boy born in Thailand, who had been selected to represent Thailand at a paper aeroplane contest in Japan, was personally denied an alien travel document by the Interior Ministry on grounds of "national security". The story had a happy ending because the prime minister intervened and the boy got the travel document and won the contest but I assume from this story that it is not that easy. The alien travel document is only valid for a year and is probably treated with suspicion by many countries. There is probably no guarantee that it will be reissued after a year and I doubt very much that it can be re-issued by Thai Embassies abroad. It would probably be a high risk strategy to use this to migrant to another country, as the Thai government would likely take the opportunity to wash their hands of a resident alien who was no living living permanently in Thailand. It is clearly intended only for temporary visits abroad and may well require detailed justification of the need to travel. It could perhaps be viewed as a last resort but the lady would probably need to be sure to obtain resident status and a new travel document in Sri Lanka, if she used it to migrate there.

Personally, I would investigate whether she can get a Thai ID card before pursuing other options. As I mentioned earlier, it sounds as if she should be entitled to a Thai ID card under Section 23 of the 2008 Nationality Act and many people have already successfully applied under this new legislation. I would not be surprised if the lady or her family are unaware of this legislation because it is new and the government has certainly done nothing to encourage applications. Most of the applications have come from hill tribe people who have been informed of their rights by NGOs who also lobby district officers and other government officials to do the right thing on their behalf. District officers have the right to reject applicants on grounds of national security but it is not supposed to be a long drawn out application process like applying for naturalization for those born outside Thailand. You need to contact NGOs who have experience of this. The law firm you mentioned and others that deal mainly with farang customers is unlikely to be of much help. These are usually quite good at their bread and butter business of getting visas, work permits & etc for farangs but, with no disrepect intended, I can tell you from first hand experience that they have very little knowledge of anything slightly out of the ordinary like nationalilty. It is best to research the ID card issue in detail, rather than applying at the District Office and risk being knocked back which would then cause a face issue with the District Officer who would actively stonewall any future applications due to loss of face. Some people with one Thai parent applying for ID cards after years abroad using another nationality have actually re-registered themselves with households in other districts to get ID cards by working around obtuse local officials who claimed they had no right to nationality. I would suggest trying to contact the Local Adminstration Department in Bangkok, directly, which is the part of the Interior Ministry that is responsible for district offices and obviously has many legal advisors on its staff that know the law. Its website is www.dola.go.th. Sometimes just showing up at Thai government departments and being polite, or even phoning, can produce results that people don't expect.

Please don't post the lady's house registration certificate here. Posting important personal information on the Internet is risky. Anyway, I can tell from what you say that she has a yellow Thor Ror 13 house registration certificate that is issued to foreigners who are not permanent residents. This is positive as she has already met the tests to be listed as a resident by the District Office and has the 13 digit ID number that will be her Thai ID card number, if she successfully applies for one.

[plaaduk]

I wonder why nobody had replied to my last post. I wonder if this is such a complicated situation …

Yes, it is. You are asking how to get a Thai document for a stateless person valid for international travel. This is indeed not a common situation and unlikely something that a ThaiVisa member has ever had to sort out.

If I were your girlfriend I would go the passport office and ask them for advice. After all, this international travel document for a stateless person is for travel purposes the equivalent of a passport.

An alternative would be to consult a lawyer familiar with this matter.

--

Maestro

There is in fact a specific alien travel document issued by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs to resident aliens who have been denied a passport by their country of origin. See http://www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2496 . I have never known any one who applied for one. There was a big fuss in the Thai media recently because a Burmese boy born in Thailand, who had been selected to represent Thailand at a paper aeroplane contest in Japan, was personally denied an alien travel document by the Interior Ministry on grounds of "national security". The story had a happy ending because the prime minister intervened and the boy got the travel document and won the contest but I assume from this story that it is not that easy. The alien travel document is only valid for a year and is probably treated with suspicion by many countries. There is probably no guarantee that it will be reissued after a year and I doubt very much that it can be re-issued by Thai Embassies abroad. It would probably be a high risk strategy to use this to migrant to another country, as the Thai government would likely take the opportunity to wash their hands of a resident alien who was no living living permanently in Thailand. It is clearly intended only for temporary visits abroad and may well require detailed justification of the need to travel. It could perhaps be viewed as a last resort but the lady would probably need to be sure to obtain resident status and a new travel document in Sri Lanka, if she used it to migrate there.

Personally, I would investigate whether she can get a Thai ID card before pursuing other options. As I mentioned earlier, it sounds as if she should be entitled to a Thai ID card under Section 23 of the 2008 Nationality Act and many people have already successfully applied under this new legislation. I would not be surprised if the lady or her family are unaware of this legislation because it is new and the government has certainly done nothing to encourage applications. Most of the applications have come from hill tribe people who have been informed of their rights by NGOs who also lobby district officers and other government officials to do the right thing on their behalf. District officers have the right to reject applicants on grounds of national security but it is not supposed to be a long drawn out application process like applying for naturalization for those born outside Thailand. You need to contact NGOs who have experience of this. The law firm you mentioned and others that deal mainly with farang customers is unlikely to be of much help. These are usually quite good at their bread and butter business of getting visas, work permits & etc for farangs but, with no disrepect intended, I can tell you from first hand experience that they have very little knowledge of anything slightly out of the ordinary like nationalilty. It is best to research the ID card issue in detail, rather than applying at the District Office and risk being knocked back which would then cause a face issue with the District Officer who would actively stonewall any future applications due to loss of face. Some people with one Thai parent applying for ID cards after years abroad using another nationality have actually re-registered themselves with households in other districts to get ID cards by working around obtuse local officials who claimed they had no right to nationality. I would suggest trying to contact the Local Adminstration Department in Bangkok, directly, which is the part of the Interior Ministry that is responsible for district offices and obviously has many legal advisors on its staff that know the law. Its website is www.dola.go.th. Sometimes just showing up at Thai government departments and being polite, or even phoning, can produce results that people don't expect.

Please don't post the lady's house registration certificate here. Posting important personal information on the Internet is risky. Anyway, I can tell from what you say that she has a yellow Thor Ror 13 house registration certificate that is issued to foreigners who are not permanent residents. This is positive as she has already met the tests to be listed as a resident by the District Office and has the 13 digit ID number that will be her Thai ID card number, if she successfully applies for one.

You are right about suspicion from Govt. authorities in the use of the Certificate of Identity issued to aliens.If say someone intends to enter Sri Lanka with such a document, the Sri Lankan authority or Embassy would want that person to have another visa to another country other than Sri Lanka before the person is given a visa. This is to ensure that the person will not be stranded in case she cannot return to Thailand. Such Certificate of Identity is for a limited time frame and is not like a passport.

Issues like nationality is sensitive and takes a long time to solve! You need to be very patient!