1,500 Riot Police Deployed To Maintain Order During Red Shirt Rally

[baht&sold]

I feel at least a little gratitude for Khun Thaksin and his band.

Yes, I know it was probably stolen from someone else...but at least this one time it came my way and to my advantage.

But to be honest....I may be the only person who is hoping there will be some disruption/trouble this month. Why? Because I hope it brings the Baht/Dollar rate back up to 33 or 34 Baht to a Dollar. Selfish? Yes, and I don't care.

Pretty much (sadly) sums up the majority 'Walter Mitty' TV Expat bleat: 'Bring back Khun Thaksin'

(for what "I" (naively) think I might get out of it)

You and your messiah are in lock-step. Thailand, the poor, and democracy be damned.

Kudos for being honest though... sincerely

Edited December 10, 2009 by baht&sold

[wayfarer108]

Update:

Thaksin says he simply wants to return to server people, not to become PM

He told them that he did not want to return to power as the prime minister but he simply wanted to help them overcome the economic crisis.

-- The Nation 2009-12-10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Retiring from politics yet again? The boy who cried wolf ....

[baht&sold]

The red-shirt leaders are marking (marring?) constitution day after their counterparts (Puea Thai) and their de-facto leader (Mr Thaksin) rejected constitution reform (which THEY demanded in the first place...)

The sticking point was the current Govt's insistence on a public referendum, to which Mr Thaksin reportedly stated: 'the proposed charter changes do not affect the people'... (how democratic)

The 'main' proposed charter change was to do away with party dissolution for executive vote fraud which has snared the past incarnations of Mr Thaksin's various parties.

Meanwhile, the rally is taking place alongside the site celebrating HM the King's birthday, who simply wished for peace and unity and asked for people to put the country above *self* interest....

However, Jan 8th is the final possible date for the court decision on confiscation of Mr Thaksin's frozen 76 billion baht, hence the 'urgency'? (which apparently overrides all else, even a beloved, hopeful birthday wish)

Whilst having never been a fan of Taksin, I do believe wholeheartedly that the belief that the populace of any society where there is such a massive and disparate proportion of wealth between the few at the expense (no pun intended) of the poor can live in peace and unity, is, in the long term, impossible.

If they were to jettison Taksin, (yes, I know he's been bankrolling them, but, surely the core issues, poverty and the uncaring attitude encouraged by the sakdina system of this country - somewhat akin to the caste system in India) were addressed, they might gain more sympathy for their cause, and justly (pun intended) so.

I believe the cessation of knee jerk reactions from those who either support the Yellows or the Reds and some thought given to both movements' fundamental principles might be more helpful.

Eloquent/skin deep.

However, I am neither red nor yellow- search my posts condemning both via my colour-blindness and concern for my adopted land.

Knee jerk reaction? Thanks for your leading naive example at the complexities afoot.

Chok dee.

Edited December 10, 2009 by baht&sold

[moe666]

Stop the demonstrations, donot issue permits.

[webfact]

RED SHIRTS RALLY

Thaksin calls for end to political double standards

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on December 11, 2009

Dressed and speaking as if he were still running the country, convicted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra yesterday led more than 20,000 red-shirt demonstrators via video link in lighting candles in honour of His Majesty the King's 82nd birthday.

Thaksin, who was dressed in a dark suit, white shirt and red tie and had a yellow royal flag flanking him, addressed his supporters, who lit thousands of pink candles and sang songs in honour of His Majesty in the evening.

This all took place as the red shirts gathered to denounce the Abhisit Vejjajiva government, with some also criticising Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda, a senior figure close to the Palace, for his alleged role in supporting the 2006 coup that ousted Thaksin.

Thaksin told protesters the Kingdom would know no peace as long as double standards existed in politics.

Speaking from an undisclosed foreign location, Thaksin said, "people are fed up with double standards", adding that they were smarter than in the past and would not be fooled.

"Return democracy to the people, return wealth to the people and dignity to the country," he said.

He praised the red shirts for their perseverance, sacrifice and non-violent stance, adding that only through non-violent struggle would victory be won.

"Brothers and sisters, we have had enough of forces outside the system," he said, adding that Thailand would be better off if foreign investors knew Thai politics really operated in a transparent way so that they could assess their risks.

The gathering yesterday coincided with Constitution Day and protest leaders highlighted the significance of having a people's constituion instead of one sponsored by the military junta, as in the case of the current 2007 charter which was introduced after the 2006 coup in 2006.

There was some criticism of the red shirts for staging a protest while the extended Rajdamnoen Avenue celebration of His Majesty's birthday was still taking place.

However, red shirt Pratchayao Surakamchonrot told The Nation that holding a protest in December was appropriate, as it was also about the demand for a return to the 1997 "people's charter".

He added that the official dates for His Majesty's birthday celebration - December 4 and 5 - had passed.

-- The Nation 2009/12/11

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[jonclark]

"....."Return democracy to the people, return wealth to the people and dignity to the country," he said..."

Any guesses whose wealth he is talking about

Personally I reckon we just stick Takki and Abhist in a room, give them each a baseball bat and whoever is left standing after 5 minutes gets to run the country for the next 5 years.

[jonclark]

Bloke must have amnesia

"...He praised the red shirts for their perseverance, sacrifice and non-violent stance, adding that only through non-violent struggle would victory be won.

Next he'll be claiming he's the Dali Lama..

[Cayenne]

So how many reds did show up last night? Even if the number was indeed as high as 20,000 it would still be as high as the last PAD rally. In other words, this is a sign that the rest of the country doesn't give a dam_n anymore. When will these people learn? By the way I am still waiting for the one million people rally as promised by the reds so many times...

[Ricardo]

Bloke must have amnesia

"...He praised the red shirts for their perseverance, sacrifice and non-violent stance, adding that only through non-violent struggle would victory be won.

Next he'll be claiming he's the Dali Lama..

Poor man.

He appears to have totally-forgotten all his interviews and broadcasts last April, when he appeared to be egging his supporters on, to overthrow by demonstrations on-the-streets. How come he didn't condemn their violence then, when they were burning buses and threatening to blow-up gas-tankers in Bangkok, how come he doesn't condemn the thugs of ''Rak Chiang Mai 51' for their threats and violence, in his home-town ?

[lazygourmet]

Got back at around 9.30pm

Many ralliers were leaving then, after the satellite link up with Thaksin had finished.

No idea of numbers but I can tell you that Rajdamnoen Road was still packed all the way around Democracy Monument and from Democracy Monument to the Kok Wua (?) intersection (... where the memorial to October 1973 is, where the road goes off to Khao San Road) when I was making my way away. And I mean packed.

There were also a fair number "behind" the stage on Democracy Monument.... leading up to the fort and Roha Prasat.

All jolly and merry. Usual mix of normal people.

Didn't look like a raving mad mob at all.

Anyone can tell me the nme of the bloke signing the folks' shirts I'd be grateful.

Pictures here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/...57622973820964/

That's Kattiya aka Sae Deng

[Rumfoord]

Because one crazy Thai Army general said again and again that there will be the retired Rangers with weapons joining the Red Shirts. That's why.

Is this the same Kattiya who was recently sentenced to one-year in jail and illegally crossed into Cambodia last month? This is one whacked out nut case.

That's the GUY! His own website is dedicated to the RED SHIRTS and violence.

I've seen his website, absolutely frightening. Wishful thinking on my part, but I had hoped he would have served out his entire jail sentence. With his recent illegal actions and threats made in the past and present, I do hope he will be court martialed, and if found guilty, do some serious time with rank stripped. Again, my wishful thinking won't do anything for the current situation.

Sae Dang is popular amongst a large group of Thais. seems to be some-kind of hero for the common man. this guy sees his mission in fighting against corruption in the higher police ranks. and for that he had to face several defamation cases and also got jail time. he is a big mouth like everybody else in the game.

a bangkok based newspaper, the one we can not quote and link here at TVF, run a home-story about him last year. Sae daeng was shown arm in arm with his daughter, who was wearing a yellow shirt because she is a PAD supporter and attended the protests.

he is an interesting character.

about his recent lawsuit the fabulous newspaper The Nation published two articles on November 20:

Court dismiss lawsuit against Khattiya

and

Kattiya gets one-year jail term for defaming Seripisut

anyway, keep in mind it was and is a defamation case. a reminder that such things can bring you in thailand quickly into trouble and something written in an entry at a webboard can be enough for file a suit at the court.

[junglist]

Simple solution. Next time you stage a coup d'état make sure your enemy is at home when it happens. It will save you time, money and a lot of whimpering.

[webfact]

Mass Red Shirt rally ends with renewed call to bring back 1997 charter

BANGKOK, Dec 11 (TNA) - Thousands of anti-government demonstrators of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) ended their mass rally to mark Constitution Day at midnight, peacefully, but with a renewed call to bring back the 1997 charter.

Constitution Day commemorates Thailand's first constitution in 1932.

The so-called Red Shirts began their protest Thursday noon at Ratchadamnoen Avenue's Democracy Monument with leading UDD members taking turns to attack the performance of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's government.

They called on the government to bring back the 1997 constitution, which was abolished by the September 2006 coupmakers who ousted Mr Thaksin. The charter was replaced by a new constitution in 2007, written during the term of the Gen Surayudh Chulanont government.

Key UDD leader Nattawut Saikua, as last person on stage, told the Red Shirt supporters that the UDD would fight on and would rally again early next year with intensified efforts to unseat the Abhisit government.

Another key Red Shirt leader, Veera Musikapong, said earlier that the December 10 rally would be the last for this year and the movement will renew demonstrations after the New Year celebration.

The next rally would be 'Do or Die' for political change, Mr Veera said, without specifying the date of the gathering.

Highlighting the gathering was an address via video link from an unspecified location by convicted ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra during which he led the UDD supporters in a mass candle-lit ceremony to bless His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej in honour of his 82th birthday.

For about half an hour, Mr Thaksin told his supporters that he did not want to be prime minister again but he wanted to return to the kingdom to serve the Thai people in weathering the country's economic problems.

Mr Thaksin said that he wanted Thailand to have a completed constitution and he was ready to talk with the government if the government returned power to the people by amending the 1997 constitution and retire the 2007 charter.

Ousted in a bloodless coup three years ago amid allegations of corruption, Mr Thaksin was sentenced to a two-year prison term for violating a conflict of interest law when he was prime minister to help his ex-wife purchase prime land in Bangkok's Ratchadapisek Road.

He jumped bail and is now in self-imposed exile to avoid imprisonment, spending most of his time in the United Arab Emirates. (TNA)

-- TNA 2009/12/11

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[h90]

So how many reds did show up last night? Even if the number was indeed as high as 20,000 it would still be as high as the last PAD rally. In other words, this is a sign that the rest of the country doesn't give a dam_n anymore. When will these people learn? By the way I am still waiting for the one million people rally as promised by the reds so many times...

Well they can get how many people they pay for.

So if it is 20.000 or 200.000 doesn't matter it is just a question of money.

[JFitzgerald]

The next rally would be 'Do or Die'

That's about as ominous a start to 2010 as could be possible.

[LivinLOS]

The next rally would be 'Do or Die'

That's about as ominous a start to 2010 as could be possible.

How many 'final showdowns' can we handle..

This time its it rhetoric falls kinda flat when its repeated.

[hammered]

Stop the demonstrations, donot issue permits.

Demos dont need permits in Thailand. It wouldnt be very democratic if the right of assembly were dependent on permits either.

[hammered]

TBH who cares what charter they have? As long as it is not just a way to do away with charges that have been layed. Sure bring back 1997 but make sure no charges fall because of it or if they do recharge them. That is the pertinent issue. It is nothing to do with democracy or rights (people have far more rights enshrined in the 2007 constitution, whihc nobody even points out) but about technical ways to clear the slate of charges.

[junglist]

More like “Do or Cry”…. “my money my money, its all going away I worked so hard at stealing it my money….. rrrrrr now I see red”.

[jjonz]

The red-shirt leaders are marking (marring?) constitution day after their counterparts (Puea Thai) and their de-facto leader (Mr Thaksin) rejected constitution reform (which THEY demanded in the first place...)

The sticking point was the current Govt's insistence on a public referendum, to which Mr Thaksin reportedly stated: 'the proposed charter changes do not affect the people'... (how democratic)

The 'main' proposed charter change was to do away with party dissolution for executive vote fraud which has snared the past incarnations of Mr Thaksin's various parties.

Meanwhile, the rally is taking place alongside the site celebrating HM the King's birthday, who simply wished for peace and unity and asked for people to put the country above *self* interest....

However, Jan 8th is the final possible date for the court decision on confiscation of Mr Thaksin's frozen 76 billion baht, hence the 'urgency'? (which apparently overrides all else, even a beloved, hopeful birthday wish)

Whilst having never been a fan of Taksin, I do believe wholeheartedly that the belief that the populace of any society where there is such a massive and disparate proportion of wealth between the few at the expense (no pun intended) of the poor can live in peace and unity, is, in the long term, impossible.

If they were to jettison Taksin, (yes, I know he's been bankrolling them, but, surely the core issues, poverty and the uncaring attitude encouraged by the sakdina system of this country - somewhat akin to the caste system in India) were addressed, they might gain more sympathy for their cause, and justly (pun intended) so.

I believe the cessation of knee jerk reactions from those who either support the Yellows or the Reds and some thought given to both movements' fundamental principles might be more helpful.

Eloquent/skin deep.

However, I am neither red nor yellow- search my posts condemning both via my colour-blindness and concern for my adopted land.

Knee jerk reaction? Thanks for your leading naive example at the complexities afoot.

Chok dee.

I was not referring to your post directly Bahtsold. I merely used it to exemplify what seems to be at the heart of many of the foreigners' posts here, a la GeorgeW's 'your either with us, or against us' attitude.

I find your posts extremely informative and your heart is obviously in the right place, however, I do believe a little circumspection and less personal sensitivity is called for. I do believe you are capable of taking a 'broader view' of the situation overall? Do the core issues regards poverty, as mentioned in my post, not resonate with you at all? They should, and perhaps you might use your intelligence and ingenuousness to address and enlighten us all?

In other words, your comment regarding one's being 'naive' calls to mind the words 'motes' and 'beams'.

[h90]

Stop the demonstrations, donot issue permits.

Demos dont need permits in Thailand. It wouldnt be very democratic if the right of assembly were dependent on permits either.

In some european countries they need a permit. And I agree that doesn't seem to be very democratic.

[jjonz]

I don't read posters until they have at least 50+ posts under their belt, and an avatar. Then I know they'll show a little "Staying power".

Do you think any of us actually care dear boy? Do stay on topic.

[h90]

I don't read posters until they have at least 50+ posts under their belt, and an avatar. Then I know they'll show a little "Staying power".

so you read mine

[Credo]

Along with rights come responsibilities. I see absolutely nothing wrong with needing a permit for an organized, planned demonstration. This is quite different from a spontaneous demonstration that comes about because of some perceived injustice, but isn't 'called' by anyone and isn't 'organized' by any group. Both the PAD and UDD have an organizational structure and their people show up when they are asked/told to show up.

The rules relating to issuing of permits needs to be watched carefully. They are generally in place to allow the authorities the proper amount of time to prepare for the demonstrations. That means enough police, adequate toilet facilities, preparations of medical facilities in cases of illness, accident etc.

Did I say prepare?....as in plan..... Oh, mai pen lai. They don't do that here, do they?

[jontom]

I have the feeling since years, the whole country is OWNED by a handfull of people and EVERY way to come to power is ok.

The only reason behind all is MONEY, nothing else!

I am not a fan of any politician or prime minister here in the past years but what has changed since Khun Abisith rules the country....if he does...`?

OK, Thaksin put his pockets full of money like every (Chinese/Asian) politician before him but at least he did something for the country, not always the

optimal way but thats another story...and NO...I dont want him back.

The Thais arent ready for democracy yet. The country is ruled by the army who control all of the big institutions Im sure Thaksin had his faults but at least he got things done ie getting rid of a load of drug dealers building the airport etc where he got it wrong was when the elite realised that the non elite were liking what he was doing and that didnt serve the elites cause, que enter the army with the support of the elite, oust him, sponsor a takeover of the airport, put in a puppet prime minister and youve got good old Thai politics again. Abhisit doesnt seem to have done anything so far and of course is scared of having an election, even if they had one and we was replaced the elite would replace the Government again with another one that they like. I dont know why us Farrang bother so much with Thai politics its all a big joke and we dont have a vote even if we work and pay taxes here. Leave it to the Thais Farrang boys and girls and get yourselves out in Nana etc!

[h90]

Along with rights come responsibilities. I see absolutely nothing wrong with needing a permit for an organized, planned demonstration. This is quite different from a spontaneous demonstration that comes about because of some perceived injustice, but isn't 'called' by anyone and isn't 'organized' by any group. Both the PAD and UDD have an organizational structure and their people show up when they are asked/told to show up.

The rules relating to issuing of permits needs to be watched carefully. They are generally in place to allow the authorities the proper amount of time to prepare for the demonstrations. That means enough police, adequate toilet facilities, preparations of medical facilities in cases of illness, accident etc.

Did I say prepare?....as in plan..... Oh, mai pen lai. They don't do that here, do they?

well...difficult question....but if you have a bad government it simply does not give permits and everyone who attend a not permitted demonstration is automatic a criminal.

that comes together with nationalized labor units and some "permited" demonstrations and some nice laws which guarantee than always the same people will control the country and we are in a perfect dictatorship.

[Credo]

Your very right h90 and that's a whole different scenario. If you plan a demonstration and it doesn't conflict with any other planned activity, that says a lot about the government. In the case where a right is constitutionally guaranteed, then organizations might be able to hold the government accountable in the courts for the violation of a right.

I am not talking about spontaneous gatherings--such as when there is a sudden change in the law and a whole lot of people take to the streets. I am talking about the planned ones.

[baht&sold]

The red-shirt leaders are marking (marring?) constitution day after their counterparts (Puea Thai) and their de-facto leader (Mr Thaksin) rejected constitution reform (which THEY demanded in the first place...)

The sticking point was the current Govt's insistence on a public referendum, to which Mr Thaksin reportedly stated: 'the proposed charter changes do not affect the people'... (how democratic)

The 'main' proposed charter change was to do away with party dissolution for executive vote fraud which has snared the past incarnations of Mr Thaksin's various parties.

Meanwhile, the rally is taking place alongside the site celebrating HM the King's birthday, who simply wished for peace and unity and asked for people to put the country above *self* interest....

However, Jan 8th is the final possible date for the court decision on confiscation of Mr Thaksin's frozen 76 billion baht, hence the 'urgency'? (which apparently overrides all else, even a beloved, hopeful birthday wish)

Whilst having never been a fan of Taksin, I do believe wholeheartedly that the belief that the populace of any society where there is such a massive and disparate proportion of wealth between the few at the expense (no pun intended) of the poor can live in peace and unity, is, in the long term, impossible.

If they were to jettison Taksin, (yes, I know he's been bankrolling them, but, surely the core issues, poverty and the uncaring attitude encouraged by the sakdina system of this country - somewhat akin to the caste system in India) were addressed, they might gain more sympathy for their cause, and justly (pun intended) so.

I believe the cessation of knee jerk reactions from those who either support the Yellows or the Reds and some thought given to both movements' fundamental principles might be more helpful.

Eloquent/skin deep.

However, I am neither red nor yellow- search my posts condemning both via my colour-blindness and concern for my adopted land.

Knee jerk reaction? Thanks for your leading naive example at the complexities afoot.

Chok dee.

I was not referring to your post directly Bahtsold. I merely used it to exemplify what seems to be at the heart of many of the foreigners' posts here, a la GeorgeW's 'your either with us, or against us' attitude.

I find your posts extremely informative and your heart is obviously in the right place, however, I do believe a little circumspection and less personal sensitivity is called for. I do believe you are capable of taking a 'broader view' of the situation overall? Do the core issues regards poverty, as mentioned in my post, not resonate with you at all? They should, and perhaps you might use your intelligence and ingenuousness to address and enlighten us all?

In other words, your comment regarding one's being 'naive' calls to mind the words 'motes' and 'beams'.

Quote: Do the core issues regards poverty, as mentioned in my post, not resonate with you at all?

Emphatically yes.

However, unfortunately the ongoing saga is *primarily* about Mr Thaksin's desire to return his loot (and himself) with a chance to double-up at any cost (to others) end of. If you feel this is really about 'helping the poor' well... (sigh).

Also, your original reply to my OP completely ignored the issues raised relevant to the Red/Puea Thai/Thaksin 'commemoration' of constitution day. I tend to write off those who quote a post whilst completely disregarding the content. Best to not quote and just run with the direction one desires in that case.

Still, your comments regarding my OP are most welcomed.

[h90]

Your very right h90 and that's a whole different scenario. If you plan a demonstration and it doesn't conflict with any other planned activity, that says a lot about the government. In the case where a right is constitutionally guaranteed, then organizations might be able to hold the government accountable in the courts for the violation of a right.

I am not talking about spontaneous gatherings--such as when there is a sudden change in the law and a whole lot of people take to the streets. I am talking about the planned ones.

yes but as you know Thailands courts, than you sue the government and after 10 years the court rules that it was a violation of rights.....

Our the government find reasonable arguments (like traffic jam) to ban the demonstrations and suggest a other place somewhere 50 km outside Bangkok.

I agree in theory with you, but there might be too much abuse by the government.

[Credo]

It's that kind of abuse that is sometimes needed to bring about change. In the case of both the PAD gatherings and the UDD gatherings, there were major disruptions to daily life. This needs to be minimized.

Also, in some cases, the law can be written so that a permit must be issued unless the government can show a court that it should not be issued.  So part of it is making sure that the permit granting portion of the law only permits the denial of one for very specific reasons and Gen So-and-so's golf game isn't one of them!

It's probably not worth arguing since there are pros and cons for either way. It just feels like Thailand sometimes choses the worst way!

Edited December 11, 2009 by Credo