1,500 Riot Police Deployed To Maintain Order During Red Shirt Rally

[jjonz]

Quote: Do the core issues regards poverty, as mentioned in my post, not resonate with you at all?

Emphatically yes.

However, unfortunately the ongoing saga is *primarily* about Mr Thaksin's desire to return his loot (and himself) with a chance to double-up at any cost (to others) end of. If you feel this is really about 'helping the poor' well... (sigh).

Also, your original reply to my OP completely ignored the issues raised relevant to the Red/Puea Thai/Thaksin 'commemoration' of constitution day. I tend to write off those who quote a post whilst completely disregarding the content. Best to not quote and just run with the direction one desires in that case.

Still, your comments regarding my OP are most welcomed.

[uNQUOTE]

You still seem unable, or unwilling, to comprehend my post Bahtsold. Again. I understand very well the 'Taksin Factor' and that this is yet another attempt to regain his impounded 'loot'.

I also understand (sigh) that this has nothing to do with 'helping the poor'. I am far more aware of the political situation/social structure here in Thailand than that for which you give me credit. Your response smacks of outright condescension and an inabilility to grasp the grievances of the poorest of this country. How do you think the rise of the odious Taksin came about?!

I would have expected from you a better comprehension than that you seem to have exhibited thus far. (sigh).

Edited December 11, 2009 by jjonz

[baht&sold]

I understand very well the 'Taksin Factor' and that this is yet another attempt to regain his impounded 'loot'.

I also understand (sigh) that this has nothing to do with 'helping the poor'.

Abysmal etiquette aside, at least we're getting somewhere.

If you'd like to open a topic regarding the grievances of the poor and best ways to assist, I could offer volumes (and have).

However, this topic is about Reds/Puea Thai/Thaksin commemorating constitution day, as was my thrice ignored OP which you quoted.

Regret I have little time for bait n debate. Your heart appears in the right place and I wish you and the real victims, the poor (NOT Mr Thaksin) better returns and better representation.

[LawnGnome]

The Red shirts held a protest with no violence. I applaud them for that, and hope it continues. They can shout until they are blue in the face. As long as they don't park NGV gas trucks next to apartment buildings and burn city buses...

[jjonz]

I understand very well the 'Taksin Factor' and that this is yet another attempt to regain his impounded 'loot'.

I also understand (sigh) that this has nothing to do with 'helping the poor'.

Abysmal etiquette aside, at least we're getting somewhere.

If you'd like to open a topic regarding the grievances of the poor and best ways to assist, I could offer volumes (and have).

However, this topic is about Reds/Puea Thai/Thaksin commemorating constitution day, as was my thrice ignored OP which you quoted.

Regret I have little time for bait n debate. Your heart appears in the right place and I wish you and the real victims, the poor (NOT Mr Thaksin) better returns and better representation.

I have no idea to what 'abysmal etiquette' you refer, but seems vainglorious.

As to your second paragraph - I did state in my reply quoting your first post (if you'd care to scroll back, or bother) that I simply used your overall post as an example and to expound upon the fact that the rise of the 'redshirts' was not all about Taksin and that many posters use this assumption as a way of neglecting the underlying reasons why this particular movement came about. Do you understand?

As to your 'regretting you have little time for bait and debate', I find that remark self aggrandizing - 'Oh, have no time to engage in argument with you little people', in the extreme!

I look forward to your own Blog, to which I have no doubt people who bother to respond, will be roundly shot down with yet another of your myopic views of YOUR world, as you see it.

Edited December 11, 2009 by jjonz

[baht&sold]

I understand very well the 'Taksin Factor' and that this is yet another attempt to regain his impounded 'loot'.

I also understand (sigh) that this has nothing to do with 'helping the poor'.

Abysmal etiquette aside, at least we're getting somewhere.

If you'd like to open a topic regarding the grievances of the poor and best ways to assist, I could offer volumes (and have).

However, this topic is about Reds/Puea Thai/Thaksin commemorating constitution day, as was my thrice ignored OP which you quoted.

Regret I have little time for bait n debate. Your heart appears in the right place and I wish you and the real victims, the poor (NOT Mr Thaksin) better returns and better representation.

I have no idea to what 'abysmal etiquette' you refer, but seems vainglorious.

As to your second paragraph - I did state in my reply quoting your first post (if you'd care to scroll back, or bother) that I simply used your overall post as an example and to expound upon the fact that the rise of the 'redshirts' was not all about Taksin and that many posters use this assumption as a way of neglecting the underlying reasons why this particular movement came about. Do you understand?

As to your 'regretting you have little time for bait and debate', I find that remark self aggrandizing - 'Oh, have no time to engage in argument with you little people', in the extreme!

I look forward to your own Blog, to which I have no doubt people who bother to respond, will be roundly shot down with yet another of your myopic views of YOUR world, as you see it.

Er, ok. Thanks

END

[ThailandTigers]

I am very happy that the demonstration yesterday was without incident. I hope Thailand can find a way forward that unifies all Thai people.

[hansnl]

I have the feeling since years, the whole country is OWNED by a handfull of people and EVERY way to come to power is ok.

The only reason behind all is MONEY, nothing else!

I am not a fan of any politician or prime minister here in the past years but what has changed since Khun Abisith rules the country....if he does...`?

OK, Thaksin put his pockets full of money like every (Chinese/Asian) politician before him but at least he did something for the country, not always the

optimal way but thats another story...and NO...I dont want him back.

Kindly inform me about all his good deeds for the country.

Thank you.

Edited December 11, 2009 by hansnl

[JFitzgerald]

Because one crazy Thai Army general said again and again that there will be the retired Rangers with weapons joining the Red Shirts. That's why.

Is this the same Kattiya who was recently sentenced to one-year in jail and illegally crossed into Cambodia last month? This is one whacked out nut case.

That's the GUY! His own website is dedicated to the RED SHIRTS and violence.

I've seen his website, absolutely frightening. Wishful thinking on my part, but I had hoped he would have served out his entire jail sentence. With his recent illegal actions and threats made in the past and present, I do hope he will be court martialed, and if found guilty, do some serious time with rank stripped. Again, my wishful thinking won't do anything for the current situation.

The Army is finally reigning in this renegade to some degree based on the following investigation and recommendations. It's amazing how much slack he has been cut previously, but hopefully this dangerous and volatile character has been neutralized.

[JFitzgerald]

Army probe panel 'recommends Khattiya's suspension'

The Nation

Published on December 12, 2009

An Army investigation committee has recommended that Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdipol be suspended from duty for being disrespectful to senior officers and for leaving the country without their permission, a source familiar with the probe said yesterday.

The Army referred the recommendation to the office of the Defence Ministry's permanent secretary for a decision by Defence Minister General Prawit Wongsuwan, according to the source.

Khattiya, a senior Army expert who is a fervent supporter of fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, was recently investigated by the panel, which was appointed by Army commander-in-chief General Anupong Paochinda and headed by Army deputy chief-of-staff Lt-General Manote Premwongsiri.

According to the source, the panel was tasked with investigating whether Khattiya - better known by his nickname Seh Daeng - had committed disciplinary wrongdoing by travelling to Cambodia and Dubai without permission and for making public comments in contempt of his bosses.

When Khattiya was summoned by the probe team, he agreed to their request for him to stop making such comments, the source said.

However, he continued his involvement with politics by leading a group of former paramilitary troopers to join Thursday's rally by the pro-Thaksin red shirts at the Democracy Monument.

After his photos taken with Thaksin were widely seen on the Internet, Khattiya admitted he had travelled to Cambodia last month and to Dubai recently to meet him. He said he had offered the ex-premier moral support and discussed his ongoing political fight with him.

The probe team recommended to the Army chief that Khattiya be suspended from duty, pending a decision by the defence minister, according to the source.

A court martial is also likely to consider a case against Khattiya for acting in contempt of his senior officers. If found guilty, he faces dismissal from the military.

Khattiya recently criticised a number of the top brass, including the Army chief and Defence Ministry permanent secretary General Apichart Phenkitti, after they had rebuked him publicly for his active political involvement.

Meanwhile, Defence Ministry spokesman Colonel Thanatip Sawangsaeng said yesterday that the permanent secretary's office had obtained the investigation report and referred the matter to the Judge Advocate-General's Department for consultation on legal matters.

He said any recommendation by the agency would be forwarded to the permanent secretary and the defence minister.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/12/12...cs_30118372.php

[Cayenne]

The next rally would be 'Do or Die'

That's about as ominous a start to 2010 as could be possible.

How many 'final showdowns' can we handle..

This time its it rhetoric falls kinda flat when its repeated.

As long as there's money to be made I suppose. Although the numbers who do show up at the rallies are getting smaller and smaller. Something to do with the loss of wealth in Dubai?

[ThailandTigers]

Ummm, since the rally is over, isn't this topic redundant?

Just a suggestion.

[Artisi]

Probably redundant from day 1.

[Steve2UK]

Probably redundant from day 1.

Arguably true. As usual, the event (non-event for some?) has been hyped in varying directions all according to varying points of view: marring the birthday celebrations of HM the King or a relevant date (Constitution Day, a public holiday and celebrated since 1932) on which to make a political point about the 1997 charter. Needless to say, both dates are long-standing fixtures in the Thai calendar.

IMO the more significant factor this time has been the suggestion that up to 1,000 paramilitary "rangers" (serving or former according to which version you see) would be brought by Maj Gen Khattiya aka Seh Daeng to join the rally - at least by implication as "security". While both sides have previously made use of "guards" - some of them reportedly turning up for both colours (three if you include "blues"), this looks to me like a worrying potential escalation. From the available pictures and reports, that IMO "threat" seems to have not materialised this time - although Puea Thai member Gen Panlop later stated (Post article today) that about 200 former border rangers were voluntarily present in a show of "respect" for new Puea Thai Chairman Gen Chavalit and that more were expected to join rallies next year. Nonetheless, we still saw a serving general (Khattiya) turning up in uniform at a political rally. I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that there should at least be strict and strictly-enforced rules about serving officers and other ranks participating in political rallies - and certainly that it should never be in the King's uniform. Just as certainly, none of them should be training any protest group in paramilitary/violent methods.

AFAIK unreported by The Nation, there was a revealing detail in a Bangkok Post article on December 9 - the day before the rally: Gen Apichart (Permanent Secretary for Defence) reportedly said that existing military regulations (since 1933, IIRC) only provide for serving generals to be reprimanded - i.e. that's the current limit on any disciplinary action available against them under military regulations. I've long thought that this is what you get when foxes raiding chicken coops are judged by other foxes. He did go on to say that the military is considering amendments to this limit.......

Overall, I find the recent moves of so many senior military (no shortage of Thai generals, after all ) joining parties* a worrying development. The presence of what amounts to a growing militia at rallies looks like just the most visible product of that. "Old soldiers never die" said MacArthur - and it looks increasingly like old Thai soldiers rarely fade away either.

*Particularly Puea Thai but also Sonthi's gambit with Matubhum etc.

PS> I was going to finish this there, but then what do I see? Today's Post also carries an article about the upcoming Prachin Buri by-election. Puea Thai Chief Whip Witthaya Buranasiri announces that their candidate (and thus potential opposition party leader in parliament.....) will be a general whose name begins with "Ch". Suggestions of who that might be are: Gen Chavalit (now Puea Thai chairman), Gen Chettha (former army chief) and Gen Chaisit (former supreme commander - family name Shinawatra).

Edited December 12, 2009 by Steve2UK

[baht&sold]

Thoughtful and insightful post Steve.

We don't often agree but kudos on the above.

Edited December 12, 2009 by baht&sold

[rixalex]

Thoughtful and insightful post Steve.

We don't often agree but kudos on the above.

Second those sentiments.

[hammered]

The Thai military have been involved in poltics for many a year and they have been split backing different sides before. However, they would normally remain behind the scenes and normally follow a code even when doing a coup. The latest stuff is more dangerous because if it actually happens it could be members of a military unit at a demonstration and demos are always volatile. It is a tendancy towards almost warlord like allegiances where individual generals may move their men around ignoring the chain of command.

However, with the asset seizure case rapidly coming to conclusion expect things to be very unpredictable in the run up to it and the immediate aftermath. These are not normal poltical times in Thailand and there are many different things going on at different levels with a massive powwer struggle and inter-elite battle mixed up with issues over democracy and wealth distribution.

[baht&sold]

Another kudos, to Hammered on the above.

[Steve2UK]

The Thai military have been involved in poltics for many a year and they have been split backing different sides before. However, they would normally remain behind the scenes and normally follow a code even when doing a coup. The latest stuff is more dangerous because if it actually happens it could be members of a military unit at a demonstration and demos are always volatile. It is a tendancy towards almost warlord like allegiances where individual generals may move their men around ignoring the chain of command.

However, with the asset seizure case rapidly coming to conclusion expect things to be very unpredictable in the run up to it and the immediate aftermath. These are not normal poltical times in Thailand and there are many different things going on at different levels with a massive powwer struggle and inter-elite battle mixed up with issues over democracy and wealth distribution.

Yes, I meant to include "so conspicuously" in my earlier "Overall, I find the recent moves of so many senior military....... joining parties a worrying development." They've always been there, largely in the shadows - but not in recent times so "front and centre" in supposedly civilian set-ups.

I imagine some will find the "warlord" analogy a bit extreme, but I think it's still fairly apt. One only needs to see how commanders are re-assigned to recognise that it counts for something here - even if it's not on a par with, say, freewheeling generals/warlords in twenties/thirties China or now in Somalia, Afghanistan etc largely because there was/is no effective central government there. That said, personal allegiances to individuals do seem to be strong and that cuts both ways - I also left out of my PS above that Witthaya ruled out Chavalit as one of the "Ch" candidates in Prachin Buri precisely because the area is not "a stronghold" for him.

[baht&sold]

Prachin Buri looks a good bet for former army chief and current Puea Thai chief adviser Gen Chettha Thanajoro.

Using terms such as 'warlord' (as in Steve's larger analogy above) isn't far off.

However, terms such as 'stronghold' are disturbingly on the mark in context.

[baht&sold]

Might add (too keep this on topic) red/yellow/blue rallies should have no military or govt personel attending in their ranks in any fashion (whether in opposition or govt).

It was as disturbingly innapropriate for Kasit to do so as it is for Jatuporn (etc).

[Siripon]

Prachin Buri looks a good bet for former army chief and current Puea Thai chief adviser Gen Chettha Thanajoro.

Using terms such as 'warlord' (as in Steve's larger analogy above) isn't far off.

However, terms such as 'stronghold' are disturbingly on the mark in context.

General Chettha has failed utterly in politics since he retired.

[baht&sold]

General Chettha has failed utterly in politics since he retired.

Yes and may the streak continue...

However, 'someone' is squarely dusting off the old generals and combined they could pack a general 'wallop'

[Steve2UK]

Getting back to the the topic from which I digressed a bit, Bangkok Pundit has a useful piece ( http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...tend%20rallies- ) on the whole question of military individuals appearing at rallies whether "ex-" or still serving. According to Bangkok Post, Suthep has said the army will investigate why 200 ex-paramilitary troopers were present last Thursday. As Pundit remarks, it's not clear what the army can have to say about ex-military attending - but it's a different matter with still-serving Maj Gen Khattiya in full uniform who (I now see) is reported as saying openly that he brought them there to provide security.

That said, Pundit also compares Khattiya's appearance at the rally with the 2008 appearance(s) of Gen Pathompong Kasetsuk, [then] chief adviser of the Supreme Command, who wore his full military uniform on the PAD stage to "express his disagreement that the government allowed Cambodia to register Preah Vihear as a world heritage site. He also called on soldiers to show courage. He said that getting on the stage of the PAD was not against the code of conduct. He wasn't doing it for personal benefit and the wearing of the full military uniform is so that the population feels comforted." From the Flickr photos posted earlier, it looks like Thursday's UDD rally-attendees were also at least "comforted" by Khattiya in full combat uniform - what with posing for happy snaps with him and getting him to autograph their shirts.....

Meanwhile, back in 2008, Puea Thai predecessors PPP objected strongly (get ready for yet another general moved into politics mode):

"Former supreme commander Gen Ruangroj Mahasaranon Wednesday criticised Gen Pathompong Kasetsuk, chief advisor of the Supreme Command, for going on stage of the People's Alliance for Democracy in full military uniform. Ruangroj, a deputy leader of the People Power Party, said a senior military officer should set a good example to the members of the public so Pathompong should not have attacked the government in public.Pathompong went up on the PAD stage Tuesday evening. Ruangroj said Pathompong's action could contribute to social rifts." [ http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30077687 ]

I think we can't say it isn't interesting how the wheel turns here.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Steve2UK

[JFitzgerald]

Outspoken army officer to be suspended from work

BANGKOK, 12 December 2009 (NNT) – A disciplinary investigation committee of the Royal Thai Army proposes that the Ministry of Defense suspend Major General Kattiya Sawasdiphol from work due to his string of cases.

The committee agreed that Maj Gen Kattiya should be put on indefinite suspension since he is required to appear in court to defend himself in many cases. His disciplinary punishment also came from his offensive remarks about army high-ranking officials.

The committee reasoned that if the officer was not suspended, it would not be good for his cases and working efficiency.

Maj Gen Kattiya’s disciplinary charges may be brought to court.

Earlier this month, the outspoken military figure told the press that more than 1,000 heavily armed rangers would join a rally of the anti-government United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship.

He also warned the army not to interfere with the demonstration to prevent a civil war.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255212120019

[JFitzgerald]

Prachin Buri looks a good bet for former army chief and current Puea Thai chief adviser Gen Chettha Thanajoro.

Using terms such as 'warlord' (as in Steve's larger analogy above) isn't far off.

However, terms such as 'stronghold' are disturbingly on the mark in context.

General Chettha has failed utterly in politics since he retired.

The BS he spewed about his having personally brokered a peace settlement in the Deep South a while back turned out to be complete bunk and removed any feasibility of his having any credibility.

He should fit right in with the PTP.

[animatic]

The Thai military have been involved in poltics for many a year and they have been split backing different sides before. However, they would normally remain behind the scenes and normally follow a code even when doing a coup. The latest stuff is more dangerous because if it actually happens it could be members of a military unit at a demonstration and demos are always volatile. It is a tendancy towards almost warlord like allegiances where individual generals may move their men around ignoring the chain of command.

However, with the asset seizure case rapidly coming to conclusion expect things to be very unpredictable in the run up to it and the immediate aftermath. These are not normal poltical times in Thailand and there are many different things going on at different levels with a massive powwer struggle and inter-elite battle mixed up with issues over democracy and wealth distribution.

Yes, good insight, and Steve's earlier was also good.

Regardless of agreement or not, good points were made.

Moving these generals to the forefront is a very bad precedent,

but we know who seems to specialize in setting bad precedents in this hot political season.

The adage goes, 'Follow the money", in this case the players are moving in towards that goal,

but not knowing where it will go makes for a heightened level of randomness.

Chaos for breakfast, carnage for lunch, and red meat for the dogs of war's dinners.

A sad state of affairs on the horizon.

[Steve2UK]

The Thai military have been involved in poltics for many a year and they have been split backing different sides before. However, they would normally remain behind the scenes and normally follow a code even when doing a coup. The latest stuff is more dangerous because if it actually happens it could be members of a military unit at a demonstration and demos are always volatile. It is a tendancy towards almost warlord like allegiances where individual generals may move their men around ignoring the chain of command.

<snip>

Pheu Thai Party welcomes 46 ex-soldiers

By The Nation

The Pheu Thai Party on Tuesday extended a warm welcome for 46 ex-soldiers who used to serve in special warfare operations.

The move is seen as a publicity campaign to dispel doubts on the party's allegiance to the monarchy by soliciting the supports of ex-offiers known for their staunch loyalty.

"The party welcomes every officer to adopt the party's banner," party leader Yongyuth Wichaidit said in his welcoming speech.

Opposition member and former deputy supreme commander Wattana Sanpanit said the presence of the 46 proved the success and popularity of party policies implemented from under the banners of Thai Rak Thai and People Power to the current banner.

Pheu Thai member Panlop Pinmanee said he was confident the main opposition party would win the controlling majority to be able to form a single-party government following the next general election.

-- The Nation December 16, 2009

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/worldhotne...-46-ex-soldiers

[SomdetK]

Border kerfuffle as red shirts try to meet Thaksin

The red shirts yesterday tried to create trouble by claiming that they were blocked by Thai immigration officials from meeting ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra in Cambodia.

At the Rong Kluea Market intersection near the Aranyaprathet border checkpoint, hundreds of red shirts were stopped and asked where they were from and where they were heading to.

Police discovered they were going to see Thaksin and had come from Bangkok and many central provinces.

Some who did not carry a passport and were not allowed to leave the country made a stink about it, accusing police of political harassment.

Pol Captain Chan Wongwaimethee said he called immigration officials to find out what had happened and was told that about 30 people were turned back because they did not have travel documents.

Hundreds of red shirts with passports and who did enter Cambodia were provided with four buses by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen.

They told Cambodian officials that some of their colleagues had been prevented from crossing the border by Thai immigration officials.

Irritated by the long wait for the red shirts to arrive, the Cambodian officials went to learn why the Thaksin supporters were not being allowed to leave, but accepted the situation after they were informed that the travellers did not have the proper papers.

-- The Nation 2009-12-21

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Ricardo]

<snip for brevity>

Hundreds of red shirts with passports and who did enter Cambodia were provided with four buses by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen.

They told Cambodian officials that some of their colleagues had been prevented from crossing the border by Thai immigration officials.

Irritated by the long wait for the red shirts to arrive, the Cambodian officials went to learn why the Thaksin supporters were not being allowed to leave, but accepted the situation after they were informed that the travellers did not have the proper papers.

-- The Nation 2009-12-21

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Cue posts from pro-redshirt posters, explaining that Hun Sen isn't trying to manipulate or interfere with domestic Thai-politics, and that this problem is all due to the current government's diplomatic inadequacy.

[hammered]

Border kerfuffle as red shirts try to meet Thaksin

The red shirts yesterday tried to create trouble by claiming that they were blocked by Thai immigration officials from meeting ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra in Cambodia.

At the Rong Kluea Market intersection near the Aranyaprathet border checkpoint, hundreds of red shirts were stopped and asked where they were from and where they were heading to.

Police discovered they were going to see Thaksin and had come from Bangkok and many central provinces.

Some who did not carry a passport and were not allowed to leave the country made a stink about it, accusing police of political harassment.

Pol Captain Chan Wongwaimethee said he called immigration officials to find out what had happened and was told that about 30 people were turned back because they did not have travel documents.

Hundreds of red shirts with passports and who did enter Cambodia were provided with four buses by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen.

They told Cambodian officials that some of their colleagues had been prevented from crossing the border by Thai immigration officials.

Irritated by the long wait for the red shirts to arrive, the Cambodian officials went to learn why the Thaksin supporters were not being allowed to leave, but accepted the situation after they were informed that the travellers did not have the proper papers.

-- The Nation 2009-12-21

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Seems like a non-event. just because Sae Daeng can cross borders without travel documents doesnt mean anyone else can.

On Thai forum it is being mentioned that a lot of battalion commanders are being moved around right now by the way. Kinda pro-Thaksin et al ones out of any troop commanding position